2014 FIFA World Cup Brazil Thread

[Terxpahseyton]

If you're not going to allow tickets to trade at market value, then it's essentially just a random lottery for who gets in.

I want to reply something - but nothing seems to do it just

 

[Kyriakos]

One Neymar won't be there, but thousands of other will

 

[luiz]

Just want to say that of all the teams that came to Brazil, the German one was among the nicest, the most simpático, if not the most. They went out of their way to blend with the locals, distribute autographs, talk to regular people. They went to bars cheer for Brazil when we were playing other teams. They wore shirts of Brazil's most popular team (which happens to be the one I support). They were the complete opposite of some of their douchebag supporters who shall not be named.

I'm not a fan of German football, but I'm a fan of those guys. Good luck to them. And by that I mean - may they lose after a great game!

 

[Quackers]

Who have been the worst supporters?

I am going to take a punt and say Argentines.

 

[Kyriakos]

Would be interesting if Paraguay was in Brazil. Historically it wanted to go there

 

[ThERat]

luiz, I know you think partially about me when you make that statement, but I got to disappoint you.

I supported Germany in 1974 and 1978 as a kid (as kids would always support their own team) and I wanted to be another Beckenbauer.
My love for German football ended in 1982 when a terrible team not only cheated Algeria out of the tournament, but also played one of the worst sort of football (just remember Schumacher almost killing Battiston), with players like Briegel and Hrubesch. In German they call this Rumpelfussball. Just terrible to watch.
I started to admire teams like Brazil, the Netherlands and any other team playing free flowing football (I remember a fantastic Soviet Union squad in 1986/88). Basically teams that exhibited what Germany didn't. And I love underdogs like the Danes beating Germany in Euro 1992 final.

However, the Dutch had taken a turn for the worse from 2006 onwards with exactly that sort of football I loathe. One of the players I hate is van Bommel, just trying to destroy games and players. Who wouldn't remember the massacres of 2006 (against Portugal) and of course the final four years ago. Now, Brazil has taken the same route and I despise it.
Strangely enough, while the Dutch took to the dark side, Germany suddenly started to exhibit a free flowing, extremely easy on the eye style. Who wouldn't have admired their 2010 campaign (til the semi final). Now, they take a far more cautious approach, a real pity.

So, for tonight, I will support Germany, because someone has to end that Brazilian nonsense we have to witness. Scolari and his terrible approach to football must not succeed. I am looking forward to a repeat of 1974 just for the fun of it. Even in 1999, living for half a year in the Netherlands, I had to listen to Dutch talking about the injustice of 74. I would actually feel happy for them, if they can finally lift the trophy.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Just want to say that of all the teams that came to Brazil, the German one was among the nicest, the most simpático, if not the most. They went out of their way to blend with the locals, distribute autographs, talk to regular people. They went to bars cheer for Brazil when we were playing other teams. They wore shirts of Brazil's most popular team (which happens to be the one I support). They were the complete opposite of some of their douchebag supporters who shall not be named.

I'm not a fan of German football, but I'm a fan of those guys. Good luck to them. And by that I mean - may they lose after a great game!

Germans are some of the nicest tourists. I know this having lived on the royal mile of Edinburgh for some time (the second busiest tourist spot in the British Isles).

I'll also never forget the Werder Bremen fans who I met in Barcelona when I was in elementary school and gave me beer.

 

[luiz]

Who have been the worst supporters?

I am going to take a punt and say Argentines.

Yeah, the Argentines were pretty bad, but then again it's unfair to compare them to the others for two reasons:

1)They came in massive numbers, as they could drive here
2)They have no money (and Rio is very expensive in normal times, and insane during the WC)

The combination of those two factors have lead to "Argentine trailer slums" in highly touristic (and thus inconvenient) places such as Copacabana beach. Because the city doesn't have the infra-structure to receive this gigantic number of RV's, those Argentinians turned the city into their restroom. The sea was at the same time their toilet and shower.

It took the city officials a good while to designate some big lots for them to park with proper sanitation facilities (this more our fault than theirs).

The Chileans were also bad, and in fact the worst incident performed by fans was the Chilean attempted invasion of Maracanã during a game. 85 Chileans were deported, which didn't happen to any other nationality.

Colombians, Mexicans and Costa Ricans were all great, and no complaints about the Euros and Yanks.

Would be interesting if Paraguay was in Brazil. Historically it wanted to go there

Ah, Paraguay. The country where you can buy an AK-47, cocaine and an iPhone 5S all at the same "store".

Interestingly, Paraguay could well be in Brazil. After the end of the war, Argentina's proposal was to split the country in half between themselves and Brazil, but the Emperor thought Paraguay would be more useful as a buffer state. Turns out he was wrong.

Edit: But I love Paraguay! Every time I go there I know they're cheating me at the stores, I know they're talking among themselves in indecipherable Guaraní making fun of the stupid white Brazilian devil who they're robbing blind, but I still love it! Ciudad del Este is an unique experience, nowhere like it.

 

[daft]

Who have been the worst supporters?

I am going to take a punt and say Argentines.

I'd say the Algerians, they were constantly whistling like crazy almost all the time the opposing team had control of the ball.

 

[daft]

Gotta beat those Brazilians today lads!

Bet you that trick the Dutch manager Van Gaal he pulled in the Costa Rica game will catch on everywhere. Just watch Euro2016 and if a game goes to penalty kicks managers will start switching their goalkeepers for the ones trained in stopping pk's almost exclusively.

Don't you all agree that if a game goes into Overtime both teams should automatically be allowed one more (4th) substitution? Can someone let FIFA know it's about time they adjusted some of the rules of the game in order to make the beautiful game even more exciting to watch?

 

[Camikaze]

I think I want the Dutch to win the World Cup. I like the colour orange, and that seems about as good a basis as any. Hopefully Germany will defeat Brazil, to ensure maximum schadenfreude come Sunday.

 

[MCdread]

And this is not a Brazilian phenomena, and not a new one either.

While I disagree somewhat with the details of your main points (the timeline is a bit sketchy, and the alleged dichotomy between "European football" and "jogo bonito" is a charicature), this is a good and interesting general conclusion.
It appears that many people are upset with Brazil's playing style to the point of taking it almost as a personal offense, as if they'd built their whole view of football around an (immutable and axiomatic) ideal of how Brazil HAS to play, as if Brazil wasn't a normal team.

This is largely based on an outdated stereotype and in a larger myth that was never true to start with. The myth, which at times was probably also self-serving, is of course the samba football, the carefree and pure athletic expression of this tropical utopia (if you're a well-off foreign, that is). You just had to go to Copacabana watch some beach football games to unearth world class footballers. The next year you dress them in the yellow shirt and they're taking the world.

The reality is that Brazil was, for decades, at the forefront of tactical and technical innovation in scouting, training methods, conditioning, etc. While individual technique took centre stage, and that's what everyone remembers, it was potentiated by a strong attention to physical preparation. As early as mid 50s, Brazilian head coaches were assisted by specialists in the physical aspects of training. Whenever they felt or realised other countries had made a breakthrough in that area, Brazilian football quickly incorporated and expanded on that.
On the other hand, while Pelé, Garrincha, Rivelino, Zico, Sócrates, etc. mesmerised audiences all over the world, Brazil was never immune to be involved in rough play. The 1954 Battle of Berne - regardless of which team was the initial culprit - is well documented. In 1974 Brazil left the WC with its reputation in dire straits being accused of much the same things as this year: abandoning their traditions of free flowing samba football, violent fouling, etc.

luiz is correct in pointing out the roots of the current "style" are deep. For the last quarter of a century (probably longer than the age of many posters here) Brazil has played different formations (4-4-2 in 94, 3-5-2 in 2002, 4-2-3-1 now), but almost invariably these have included 2 holding midfielders, whose main qualities are defensive. Safety first! (For whatever reason, this appears to pass for "European-style" football in the discourse of some brazilian fans)
In front of them, we find the creatives, which have traditionally been relatively free from tight tactical systems or formations. It's not much different from the 2014 team really. The difference is that the current attacking players are, on average, worse than those of 12 or 20 years ago. The reasons for why that might be the case are probably a topic for another thread. But if this team was blessed with the likes of Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Romario, etc. on their prime, there wouldn't be any fundamental distinction to other teams of the past 20/25 years.

What Scolari is failing to do, partly because he's a tactical troglodyte more interested in cheap psychology with mystical overtones, is that the team requires a new paradigm change. Having a team with a handful of athletic bouncers whose role is to free the skilled "creatives" up front no longer cuts it at the top level.
These trends take some time to be fully felt in NT football (NT football is more chaotic, so to speak, owing to the little preparation time relative to club teams in top leagues) and, all things considered, Brazil probably still has the highest individual quality across all positions (on average), so they are perfectly on course to win the WC (even without Neymar).

I do agree with luiz's assertion about the future though. A win here could sow the seeds of future failures (unless something drastic changes) at the hands of teams like Germany whom, nevermind some of their current inefficiencies (and let's not forget Germany's best player - or at least, their best player of last season - is also out injured), have understood the changes in how football is played that took place in the last 10 years or so.
And yes, that goes beyond correcting the levels of aggression, tactical fouling and whatnot.

 

[luiz]

Good post my lusitan friend.

 

[warpus]

I'd say the Algerians, they were constantly whistling like crazy almost all the time the opposing team had control of the ball.

I hate fans who whistle en masse like that. It's one reason I don't like watching champions league games if they ever happen in Turkey. It's not as bad as the vuvuzela, but that's hard to beat..

 

[Pangur Bán]

The reality is that Brazil was, for decades, at the forefront of tactical and technical innovation in scouting, training methods, conditioning, etc.

A much told story in Scottish football is that one of the Scotland team who played Brazil in 1982 (think it was Willie Miller) walked into Brazilian dressing room and found Socrates and a bunch of them smoking cigarettes.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Dutch writer Kluun on the sentiments of the "Dutch School" as the type of football of 1974 was labeled. (translated by me)

Suppose that Vincent van Gogh had ever cared about criticism. There wouldn't be impressionism today. His sunflowers did not even look realistic.

Suppose that Mondrian lived in the time of Twitter. He'd had to hear every single day that his squares and lines were ridiculous. Abstract, my ass, this is the work of a child.

Rembrandt, Vermeer, that was the Dutch school.

The Dutch football team of 2014 is alleged to have broken with the sacred Dutch School.

Dutch men in their fifties have gotten a "total football trauma" in the summer of 1974. And as is the case with any trauma: the historical reality is lost.

Oranje has played in the past 40 years, a total of three weeks, fingerlicking good football. In 1974. I (Kluun) was ten, I remember where I was 'when we were fab'.

But I also remember the 1978 World Cup. It's that Rep, Haan and Ernie Brandts occasionally hit a thirty-five meter screamer, or Rensenbrink could never have hit the goalpost the final. Their football was hideous.

We can skip the eighties (as we didn't participate) except 1988, the only year in which we won something. With one-and-a-half striker and a tactic that can be summarized as "all balls to Marco". We did play one match "Dutch style". The first, against Russia. We lost.

I barely remember the Dutch of 1990 and 1994, not much more than the 'Institute of funny walks' by Jan Wouters at the goal line against Belgium. Oh, and fifteen minutes against Brazil.

And in 1998, under Hiddink then? Nope. Youtube it. A stunning victory against South Korea. For the rest, draws and losses in the final minutes.

In 2002, we were not there, in 2006, we had better not be present, and in 2010, well, only Bert van Marwijk thinks we tried to make the game.

The best goals in the history of the Dutch team arose from counters. Bergkamp in '98? A pass over fifty meters from a counterattack. Cruyff against Brasil '74. Van Basten '88. Oh, and Van Persie and Robben in recent weeks.

The Dutch school exists on the training ground, and the rest is misplaced romance, a myth, falsification of history.

We and the rest of the world have come to believe in the image of Orange: football as Rembrandt and Vermeer painted.

That is 1) not true, with the exception of a few games in 1974, and an occasional half an hour if it mattered. Oh yes, and 50 minutes against Spain, half an hour against Mexico and ten minutes against Chile. Not a bad score, until now.

And 2) can't be reality nowadays. In 1974 you could kick a Brazilian in half and walk away unpunished. Only Johan Cruyff still thinks that you can attack for 90 minutes and then beat teams like Chile and Mexico. At 38 degrees.

Cruyff was Rembrandt.

Van Basten was Van Gogh.

Van Persie, Robben, Van Gaal: you are Mondrian. Dutch School 3.0​

Spoiler Dutch original text :

Stel dat Vincent van Gogh zich ooit iets van kritiek had aangetrokken. Wat nou impressionisme. Die zonnebloemen leken niet eens.

Stel dat Mondriaan had geleefd in de tijd van VI Oranje, Telegraaf en Twitter. Had-ie dag na dag te horen gekregen dat dat natuurlijk nergens op sloeg, met die gekleurde vierkantjes. Abstract, me reet, dit kon een kind.

Rembrandt, Vermeer, dat was de Hollandse school.

Het Nederlands elftal van 2014 wordt verweten dat het heeft gebroken met de heilige Hollandse School.

Hugo, het pleit voor jou dat je eerlijk toegeeft dat je in een midfootballcrisis zit, maar je jonge collega’s van het AD hebben gelijk: wij, mannen van in de vijftig hebben in de zomer van 1974 een totaalvoetbaltrauma opgelopen. En zoals met ieder trauma het geval is: de historische realiteitszin gaat erdoor verloren.

Oranje heeft in de afgelopen 40 jaar in totaal drie weken achtereen likkebaardend lekker voetbal gespeeld. In 1974. Ik was tien, ook ik herinner me nog waar ik was when we were fab.

Maar ik herinner me ook het WK van 1978. Het is dat Rep, Haan en Ernie Brandts er af en toe eentje van vijfendertig meter in peerden, anders had Rensenbrink ‘m helemaal nooit op de paal kunnen schieten in de finale. Het voetbal was niet om aan te zien.

De hele jaren tachtig kunnen we overslaan, op 1988 na, het enige jaar waarin we iets wonnen. Met anderhalve spits en een tactiek die samen valt te vatten als ‘Alle ballen op Marco’. Een wedstrijd speelden we Hollands. De eerste, tegen Rusland. We verloren hem.

Het Holland van 1990 hebben we vorige week kunnen zien bij Andere tijden Sport en van 1994 herinner ik me niet veel meer dan het institute of funny walks van Jan Wouters op de doellijn tegen Belgie. O ja, en een kwartiertje tegen Brazilie.

En in 1998, onder Hiddink dan? Nee hoor. Youtube het maar eens. Een prachtige overwinning tegen Zuid Korea. Voor de rest: gelijke spelen en ontsnappingen in de laatste minuten.

In 2002 waren we er niet, in 2006 hadden we er beter niet kunnen zijn en in 2010, tja, daarvan vindt alleen Bert van Marwijk dat we toen toch echt het spel probeerden te maken.

De mooiste doelpunten uit de historie van het Nederlands elftal ontstonden uit counters. Bergkamp in ’98? Een pass over vijftig meter uit een counter. Cruijff tegen Brazilie ’74. Van Basten ’88. O ja, en Van Persie en Robben de afgelopen weken.

De Hollandse school bestaat op het trainingsveld, en voor de rest is het misplaatste romantiek een mythe, geschiedvervalsing.

Wij en de rest van de wereld zijn gaan geloven in het imago van Oranje: voetbal zoals Rembrandt en Vermeer schilderden.

Dat is 1) niet waar, met uitzondering van een paar wedstrijden in 1974, en verder af en toe een half uur als het er om ging. O ja, en 50 minuten tegen Spanje, een half uur tegen Mexico en tien minuten tegen Chili. Helemaal geen slechte score, tot nu toe.

En 2) kan ook helemaal niet meer. In 1974 kon je nog een Braziliaan onbestraft doormidden schoppen. Alleen Johan Cruijff denkt nog dat je best anderhalf uur lekker kunt aanvallen en dan wint van ploegen als het Chili en Mexico van nu. Bij 38 graden.

Cruijff was Rembrandt.

Van Basten was Van Gogh.

Van Persie, Robben, Van Gaal: jullie zijn Mondriaan. Hollandse School 3.0

 

[Takhisis]

Would be interesting if Paraguay was in Brazil. Historically it wanted to go there

They just wanted to take over the Mato Grosso.

Who have been the worst supporters?

I am going to take a punt and say Argentines.

Yeah, the Argentines were pretty bad, but then again it's unfair to compare them to the others for two reasons:

1)They came in massive numbers, as they could drive here
2)They have no money (and Rio is very expensive in normal times, and insane during the WC)

The combination of those two factors have lead to "Argentine trailer slums" in highly touristic (and thus inconvenient) places such as Copacabana beach. Because the city doesn't have the infra-structure to receive this gigantic number of RV's, those Argentinians turned the city into their restroom. The sea was at the same time their toilet and shower.

It took the city officials a good while to designate some big lots for them to park with proper sanitation facilities (this more our fault than theirs).

The Chileans were also bad, and in fact the worst incident performed by fans was the Chilean attempted invasion of Maracanã during a game. 85 Chileans were deported, which didn't happen to any other nationality.

Colombians, Mexicans and Costa Ricans were all great, and no complaints about the Euros and Yanks.

Many Argentinians also are used to the far more violent, hooligan-ridden atmosphere of their home games, where almost anything is allowed. Chile's is slightly less bad.

The sale of beer at matches is a completely idiotic decision at best.

A much told story in Scottish football is that one of the Scotland team who played Brazil in 1982 (think it was Willie Miller) walked into Brazilian dressing room and found Socrates and a bunch of them smoking cigarettes.

IIRC Corinthians at the time were in the hands of a sociologist.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Well said Mr. Kluun.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The sale of beer at matches is a completely idiotic decision at best.

You can't have an 'official beer sponsor' if you don't sell beer. You think you can push ahead of FIFA profits with such trivialities as 'local laws' or 'public safety'? C'mon man, you gotta do better than that!

 

[daft]

I hate fans who whistle en masse like that. It's one reason I don't like watching champions league games if they ever happen in Turkey. It's not as bad as the vuvuzela, but that's hard to beat..

Exactly, it just show lack of respect for other nations and a lack of culture as well.
Just listen to the European fans/supporters, they shout their nation's name to cheer their team on (like Deutschland!, Deutschland!, or England!, England!), sing songs, perhaps play drums, they ooh and aah a lot and yes occasionally whistle or boo, but not all the time other teams players have the ball.

Turkish fans and same to fans from Algeria just whistle mercilessly whenever an opposing team's got the possession of the ball, even if the other team is playing good football, attacking, not passing back to a goalie.
Noticed this also from Brazil fans directed towards Argentina's players during their games.