3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[pineappledan]

It's been a long time, but I don't think Infixo has updated EE in a while either.

I don't use EE, so I'm not really "up on it", but there are a few things I can think of:

Standschutzen:
For EE, since it switches to being a Gunsmith replacement, our VP compatibility patch needs to delete the StrikeRangeModifier, and BlocksTechSteal abilities, since those are part of the Arsenal now.
With how happiness has been changed 2 patches ago, we need to change the Waag, White Tower, Grande Ecole' s happiness modifiers.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I will try to update this tomorrow. I'm so out of date...

 

[adan_eslavo]

I updated Github. Black Tug seems to work the way you described it. Neat. Simplified it to maximum.
Also changed some promotion pedia categories which I found wrong when updating Promotion Overhaul to v6.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I played Poland again and I really don't like it. Both uniques are a bit bad, as most defensive-focused things are, but the fact both of them are like that makes the civ unappealing as a whole.

Barbican - bad yields. There's ancient era stuff that outyields this one. Defensive bonus is huge, but... the best defense is offense. Let's say you're playing against someone in 4UC who gets a yield-heavy building, he is going ahead of you. Will your Barbie help out? It's just that a yield bonus is always good, always beneficial, while a defense one is only during a war - a defensive war. Only a particular type of defensive war, as well, one where your units might've already failed or you bait an enemy. And it only counts for the city that's being attacked. Waag has a similar problem as it's yields are even worse, but at least it comes earlier and costs less production while buffing GP generation. Neither is a really good UB that can win any "best ub" contests, but Waag is a fair bit more comfy and convenient.

Suggestion - Barbican buffs Castle somehow? Maybe decrease it's defensive capabilities, like remove that bonus to ranged attack, if the buff is considerable. Or just add something small, like +1 Faith and/or Science, that nobody will notice but it will still have some impact and make Barbican a bit better.

Czterej Pancerni - so they're a tanky unit that is only really tanky in forests and only for an era. I don't believe AI will know how to use it properly as well (hide in forest at the end of turn if possible). Those guys also give some Faith, but it's pretty late for that. The right time is gone. That's mid medieval they're coming. With Parthian Tactics being as good as they're now a human-led H. Skirmisher won't even get hit frequently anyway.

Suggestion - remove Grunwald and Cover, add Armor Plating 1 which just gives +25% Defense CS (makes perfect sense, just look at the icon). One promotion, does the same as the two but better and less situationally without being OP, and is straightforward. Might still need something else, like +10% RCS against non-believers for Bogurodzica.

 

[adan_eslavo]

What can I say. I was the inititator of some of the ideas so it's not good for me to say something constructive. Maybe @pineappledan can add some valuable opinion?
Grunwald and Bogurodzica were put as a part of flavor. Bogurodzica almost all flavor, Grunwald with some usability. Maybe there's a way to modify them without deleting the climate? Do you think adding yields to Barbican change something? We have ultraoffensive Winged Hussar and corelated with him Ducal Stables which make renaissance offence awesome. Other two are more defensive ones just to wait for something better. Maybe too defensive. This non-believer thing at first glance would be harcore to code. But Poland is "stronk" don't you think?

 

[pineappledan]

Radical idea:

Barbican
Available at steel
Requires walls in city
400 (25% more than castle or armory alone, but 2/3 the cost of both)
+3, +3 (up from +2 from armory)
+1 to Quarries near City
+20 City Defense (5 more than castle)
+125 City HP (+25 from Castle)
+33% City Strike damage (+8% more than castle)
+33% RCS for garrisoned units in this city
+25 XP for units in this city (+5 from armory)
+2 military Supply cap (up from +1 from armory)
+10% supply cap from Population (up from +5% from Castle)
reduces Distress

Barbican is both a unique armory and Castle replacement (2 buildings in 1), like how Nilometer/Floating Garden both disable Wells. Disable Castles.
Takes the unlock tech from Armory, but the prerequisite building from Castle.
Everything except the distress reduction and bonus to quarries is slightly stronger than both buildings combined.
Remove the Faith, since Poland's not really a Faith civ, and it helps distinguish the yields away from Japan's UA. Let the Faith on Pancerny stand on its own.

Then for Pancerny, I like the idea of just adding +25% defense, flat. I think that Grunwald and Bogurodzica can be combined, since they are referencing the same thing for the most part. (Bogurodzica is famously the battle hymn sung by the Polish soldiers prior to the battle of Grunwald).

New Bogurodzica promotion: +25% defense. 150% Faith on Kills (double vs. Barbarians). Stays on Promotion.
Drop Grunwald

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

What can I say. I was the inititator of some of the ideas so it's not good for me to say something constructive. Maybe @pineappledan can add some valuable opinion?
Grunwald and Bogurodzica were put as a part of flavor. Bogurodzica almost all flavor, Grunwald with some usability. Maybe there's a way to modify them without deleting the climate? Do you think adding yields to Barbican change something? We have ultraoffensive Winged Hussar and corelated with him Ducal Stables which make renaissance offence awesome. Other two are more defensive ones just to wait for something better. Maybe too defensive. This non-believer thing at first glance would be harcore to code. But Poland is "stronk" don't you think?

Is Poland really all that super in renaissance? W. Hussar is not the best of UUs. Hakkapelita is comparable even if we don't take the Swedish bonus into account. Anyway, I personally think Poland's uniques are too much flavour, not enough substance.

Radical idea:

Barbican
Available at steel
Requires walls in city
400 (25% more than castle or armory alone, but 2/3 the cost of both)
+3, +3 (up from +2 from armory)
+1 to Quarries near City
+20 City Defense (5 more than castle)
+125 City HP (+25 from Castle)
+33% City Strike damage (+8% more than castle)
+33% RCS for garrisoned units in this city
+25 XP for units in this city (+5 from armory)
+2 military Supply cap (up from +1 from armory)
+10% supply cap from Population (up from +5% from Castle)
reduces Distress

Barbican is both a unique armory and Castle replacement (2 buildings in 1), like how Nilometer/Floating Garden both disable Wells. Disable Castles.
Takes the unlock tech from Armory, but the prerequisite building from Castle.
Everything except the distress reduction and bonus to quarries is slightly stronger than both buildings combined.
Remove the Faith, since Poland's not really a Faith civ, and it helps distinguish the yields away from Japan's UA. Let the Faith on Pancerny stand on its own.

Then for Pancerny, I like the idea of just adding +25% defense, flat. I think that Grunwald and Bogurodzica can be combined, since they are referencing the same thing for the most part. (Bogurodzica is famously the battle hymn sung by the Polish soldiers prior to the battle of Grunwald).

New Bogurodzica promotion: +25% defense. 100% Faith on Kills (double vs. Barbarians). Stays on Promotion.
Drop Grunwald

Concerning Barbie, it's super radical, but weird. If you go Fealty, the heavy Production discount bonus is not that important and Poland feels to me like it has quite the synergy with Fealty. Maybe Statecraft, but it doesn't seem like the sort of civ I'd go there with. I probably prefer the current Barbican to this, it's just too strange, and it might bug Arsenal/M. Academy out. I disagree Poland shouldn't get a Faith bonus because it's not really a Faith civ, the really good thing about Pogost is that heavy Faith it gets in renaissance, the rest is not good and Russia is no Faith civ either.
I like the Pancerny idea though, it removes the problem of too many promotions. It's 150% Faith now and not 100%, but it's not like it changes much at this point. I wouldn't mind if Ducal Stable accepted mounted ranged for it's XP bonus, even if it wasn't as big.

My Barbican idea:

Barbican
Available at steel
Requires walls in city
+2, +2, +2
+10 City Defense
+33% City Strike damage
+33% RCS for garrisoned units in this city
+25 XP for units in this city
+1 military Supply cap
reduces Distress
Adopting a social policy grants +XX and in the city (or other yield types).
Barbican receives +2 for every finished social policy tree.

I gave it the worst yield types (at this period) for policies being cleared on purpose so as not to allow Poland to ball too hard. It gives some more synergy to the civ, just like Paradiza gives synergy to Persia.

 

[pineappledan]

I think in order to make my Armory/castle fusion idea work you would need to make a workaround dummy building.

Poland would have Castle disabled (can't build a castle. period)
Whenever a Barbican is built in a city, that city also receives an invisible building which has BuildingClass = BUILDINGCLASS_CASTLE. This castle building would have 0 yields and effects, but would would satisfy the need for certain policies and building prereqs to have a castle in the city.

So you would get the +1 off nobility by building a barbican. You would get the 1 and / benefits off of Nobility/Neuschwanstein by building a barbican. You could build an arsenal in the city because of barbican. Barbican would also effectively count for double-effect on policies which affect both armories and castles, since you would technically have both in the city at once.

I would have to test this to make sure, but I think as long as you set No. of GWs to -1, and a few other things, a building becomes invisible. You could then set the unique building up as a standard unique replacement, and have it added using FreeBuildingThisCity, so you wouldn't even need to use LUA.

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan:

• Simplified Pancerny is also good.
  
• Will you code this? Do you need help? I'm also curious about how it will work. I like it's radicalism.
• If you will use FreeBuildingThisCity what will show the tooltip info? Probably the name of dummy building. And dummy buildings are invisible. So players will look for some "castle" and won't find any. I like simplifying, but lua would solve that problem. Rest would be the work of description.
• Maybe "free archer type unit" on build would me some novelty? This would be somehow offensive.
• I thought about production, but with stable it would be too much, and it doesn't really fit the Barbican.
• What's with Cover I on Pancerny? Stays or drops?

@Enrico Swagolo:

• What is the point of giving them even more faith you would cut from Pancerny? It does not increase Poland's offensive potential. And +2g is odd, don't you think.
• Poland has probably (according to few people) one of the strongest UA's. It probably won't need more synergy.
• Despite that, faith should be only the small addon instead of main part of Poland's gameplay. That's what I created Bogurodzica for.

 

[pineappledan]

Will you code this? Do you need help? I'm also curious about how it will work. I like it's radicalism.

I can code this, sure. I'm in no rush however and I have a few things going on in my life right now, so doing big overhauls isn't a top priority.

If you will use FreeBuildingThisCity what will show the tooltip info? Probably the name of dummy building. And dummy buildings are invisible. So players will look for some "castle" and won't find any. I like simplifying, but lua would solve that problem. Rest would be the work of description.

That's a fair point. It will be a very simple code to add to lua. You would have to add a Barbican.lua file, so I would need your help in getting that ready for when we push the next version.

Maybe "free unit" on build would me some novelty? This would be somehow offensive.

That feels like something a wonder would do. One interesting thing you could do is make a unique archer unit meant to run the barbican. It could be a unique crossbow with the same RCS as a crossbow, but -10CS and only 1 move. The problem with this would be that if you built a barbican in a later era then you would get this awkward free medieval ranged unit.
It would also be a huge amount of work.

Things that I would want to do soon:
- make this barbican and Pancerny change (requires heavy SQL and LUA rework)
- Rework the Monitor's promotions (There's no need for the LUA, an existing sql table in CBP does the exact same thing, I also have an idea for something to replace cover.)
- Rework the American Ranch (I'm unhappy with this building in general. It overlaps with the UA in an unoriginal way, just a straight doubling up rather than an augmentation of America's bonuses. We've had discussions about how to change it, and I know it's possible, but I don't have the lua know-how to do it myself.)

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Having recently played Portugal, I did not feel much of an impact from the Gold from discovering new Tiles with my navy. Saw lots of #'s between 1and 10. The free University seemed the best, though, it is hard to notice the +2 Gold from Universities.

The Cacadors were great, thought they are better to start as new to get more of the Survivalism and Trailblazer Promotions. If only they had the Scout's ability to not be inhibited by Hills and Rivers.

What did you have in mind for the American Ranch? It does seem a bit late to help acquiring Tiles.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

What will Alhambra/Himeji give for Poland, though? Also a Barbican, or nothing?

Having recently played Portugal, I did not feel much of an impact from the Gold from discovering new Tiles with my navy. Saw lots of #'s between 1and 10. The free University seemed the best, though, it is hard to notice the +2 Gold from Universities.

The Cacadors were great, thought they are better to start as new to get more of the Survivalism and Trailblazer Promotions. If only they had the Scout's ability to not be inhibited by Hills and Rivers.

What did you have in mind for the American Ranch? It does seem a bit late to help acquiring Tiles.

Age of Discovery is so weak it could probably be dropped and I wouldn't notice, but the Feitoria bonus combined with +2 Gold universities is awesome. The capital gets a huge help in spawning wonders or whatever you want after you feitoria all the available CSs. Nautoria bonus is the main draw of this building and it is powerful. In a 16 CS game, that's 16 Production 32 Gold you'll get in your capital. Sure, you won't get to them all before renaissance, but it's still massive.

 

[pineappledan]

The idea was as follows:

- Remove the +10 / on border growth
- Replace with: On completion of a Ranch, the city immediately claims all Horse, Sheep, Cattle and Bison tiles within 3 tiles of the city. These tile acquisitions trigger the American UA as if they had been purchased. (so 40 per tile in medieval))
- everything else stays the same (+25% border growth, higher bonuses on horse/sheep/cattle, and includes bison as a bonus yield.)
This has minimal impact for your capital, but could mean a fair amount of instant production in newer cities.

 

[FoxOfWar]

I like the idea of Barbican essentially combining castle and armory, would certainly be unique flair there.

Ranch idea seems also like an interesting change, particularly if settling new cities near other civs...

In general I am sorry I haven't been able to give much feedback, been busy trying to locate why my games crash around ren/industrial regardless of the kind of game I go for. All signs point to my graphics card not being able to handle this game (with all the mods) anymore. Le sigh.

 

[pineappledan]

What will Alhambra/Himeji give for Poland, though? Also a Barbican, or nothing?

That's a good point. Ideally it would give a Barbican, right?

In that case, we would need to make the barbican a CASTLE replacement, and make the dummy building an ARMORY replacement. There aren't any wonders which give a free armory, right? Nothing would actually change except a BuildingClass entry

 

[Hinin]

Hello everyone. I wasn't able to write for several weeks, but I still read what was going on, and so here I am (not that it will change much, but still !).
Concerning the upcoming modifications :

• Poland : I think it's a good idea that the Barbican becomes a Castle replacement with Armory benefits. It makes sense from a "realism" pov (not that its the goal, but still, Barbican are parts of the fortifications), and adds originality to a building that seriously needs it. If it's doable, I'm all for it.
• America : You know I agree with your idea concerning the Homestead, @pineappledan. What is your idea for the Monitor ?
• Arabia : It's not the first time I talk about it, but I still think the global concept behind the Madrasah (getting science when buying units with faith) is a flawed one, for its potential relies on a very specific kind of playstyle (if you don't follow that playstyle, the utility of the building is very low, but if you follow that playstyle, the science are simply so high that it makes an already science-heavy civ nearly unbeatable, as I experienced once when Arabia used a sort of "Blues Brothers - coincidental AI version" tactic in one of my game, which ended badly for everyone else...). I proposed a unique "Classical era" version of the Grand Temple as a UC4 instead, but I understand your concern on that matter, so I think we should find something else instead (even more since Korea already has a unique University replacement with a minor faith flavor). Do you have ideas ?
• China : The Examination Hall GP generation bonus seems too low to be relevant, so I would suppress it and instead make so that the "citizen birth" bonus of the building is increased during WLTKD (it synergizes more with the UA, since WLTKD increases growth).
  
• Denmark : As much as I appreciate @De_Genius' contribution, I think the Andelsbevægelse is a bit bland. I'm not really sure what to do about it, but I just wanted to know if you had the same opinion as me on the matter.
  
• Songhai : As you said yourself, pineappledan, the Qadi is simply a bad building. What it brings is simply too little to justify the use of a UC slot (it doesn't mean that Songhai isn't a powerful civilization, simply that we should discuss about the building once again).

Once again, thank you for your hard work !

 

[Gokudo01]

That's a good point. Ideally it would give a Barbican, right?

In that case, we would need to make the barbican a CASTLE replacement, and make the dummy building an ARMORY replacement. There aren't any wonders which give a free armory, right? Nothing would actually change except a BuildingClass entry

If you can make it compatible with more wonder for vp, it should be fine.

 

[adan_eslavo]

If you can make it compatible with more wonder for vp, it should be fine.

Do you know if some of the Wonders from MW mod give free Armory? If there is no such new wonder then no compatibility patch is needed. I personally play it using also MUCfVP and there's no problem with compatibility. It's one of my favourite mods from @Infixo.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I will start doing Barbican rework in Beta branch on Github. if something goes wrong then we won't mess stuff we've created so far. Seems easy but it will take some time for sure.

@pineappledan It seems to be a huuuge update v37. I didn't expected such radical changes at this stage of the project. But if something doesn't work then change it.

• +10% supply cap from Population (up from +5% from Castle) - Castle already has 10 so I added 5 to 15 in total.
• Cost of Castle is 300 so 400 is +33% not 25%.

• There's some new column named "DisplayPosition" in sql table Buildings. Do you know what it does? We will need probably to add it to all new buildings.
• I now think about one thing: we give dummy buildings on construction f.e. in Hippodrome and now in Barbican, maybe some else. What if player destroy the bulding? Should we consider the option and destroy dummy too?
• I decided to block default Armory by lua. Crious if it works.

!Black Tug, Pancerny and Barbican reworked in Beta branch ready to tests (without texts).

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Does Barbican benefit from Arena's +2 Production? I just remembered about this interaction. I don't think it does as it replaces the castle, and that will turn it pretty bad. Or does the invisible dummy get +2 Production?