More Unique Components for Vox Populi

3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

Not sure.

I've never been a fan of it. It causes a bunch of weird problems, like it will randomly give the AI floating gardens in some of their cities for free. I can't see why anyone would want to play with non-4UC civs in combination with 4UC ones, but I didn't make it. BG made it, so I'd suggest takling to him before you do anything with it.
 
All right then. I always play only 4uc civs. We have bunch of them now :)
 
If you go that far, I think you would have to start messing with the actual names of the civs in order to stay consistent.

Inca ==> Tawantinsuyu
Aztec ==> Mexica
China ==> Zongguo
Germany ==> Deutschland
etc.

All the names for the Timurids are proper endonyms, except for the Farsakh cannon. That unit is like the Great Turkish Bombard, in that the individual guns tended to have their own names, and there wasn't a singular name for the class of gun. "Farsakh Cannon" is as fitting as any other name.

Its zhong guo for China
Not zong guo

Sry my Chinese heritage made me need to correct that :mischief:
 
Its zhong guo for China
Not zong guo

Sry my Chinese heritage made me need to correct that :mischief:
No offence taken.

What endonym would you use for paper maker?
 
Well in China paper maker wasn't really a thing... They don't have a proper store or place in which they have numerous people making paper. They usually only have like a few skilled people who can make paper and then they just send the paper.
And people usually just call them 造纸 or zao zhi which means paper making or the craft of making paper which was a high skill at the time.

So the best suited word would be zao zhi
 
Intended that the scythed chariot has lower combat strength than the skirmisher it replaces (9 vs 11)? I'd understand why this may be desirable given how powerful Rend is. That said, I think it could do with a nerf to 8 damage or perhaps taking a more complicated approach and reducing it's damage relative to it's movement or times already used in a turn (wear and tear?). It's absolutely devastating in human hands.
 
Intended that the scythed chariot has lower combat strength than the skirmisher it replaces (9 vs 11)? I'd understand why this may be desirable given how powerful Rend is. That said, I think it could do with a nerf to 8 damage or perhaps taking a more complicated approach and reducing it's damage relative to it's movement or times already used in a turn (wear and tear?). It's absolutely devastating in human hands.
Or remove the ignore ZOC. With the new Parthian tactics (+1 move and ignore ZOC), I think it might be a good balance decision. Celts can still get access to ZOC if they work hard, but it makes racking up so much damage on a single unit much harder. I think the main problem is how much damage can be laid into a single target with ZOC, and not so much the actual numbers.

Edit: now that I think about it, we might need to do this anyways to clear bugs. Having 2 different promotions that set the same binary value on the same unit to 'true' has historically caused some bugs.
 
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I've been playing with the mod recently, still getting used to the many changes. Thank you for this work, it has been very pleasant to see the civs expanded.

Currently playing as Carthage, with the Tophet changing a lot of how I used to play this civ. Some points I've noticed:

- The Tophet's culture from unit purchases doesn't contribute to the city's border growth. Is it intended?
- The Suffet can't use the Admiral's ability to instantly travel between coastal cities due to him being a General whenever he is garrisoned. Could he have this ability in his General form?
- So far, the only ways I saw to land a Suffet on enemy shores as a General, supporting an amphibious force, are either to have an allied city-state nearby or to wait until a city is captured. Is there another way to have him act like a standard GG?
 
The Tophet's culture from unit purchases doesn't contribute to the city's border growth. Is it intended?
Not so much intended as a natural consequence of using lua. Balancing the needs for lean code and consistent gameplay, we opted to have the culture added globally
The Suffet can't use the Admiral's ability to instantly travel between coastal cities due to him being a General whenever he is garrisoned. Could he have this ability in his General form?
Not possible, for now. It's not that much of a drawback, though, considering they can traverse continents on foot.
So far, the only ways I saw to land a Suffet on enemy shores as a General, supporting an amphibious force, are either to have an allied city-state nearby or to wait until a city is captured. Is there another way to have him act like a standard GG?
Yup, The Suffet is a full-blown GAdmiral in water, and that means that there is no possible way to add pathing onto land that isn't either a fort, citadel, or a city. You will have to establish a proper beachhead in order to get your Suffets onto a new continent.

Carthage is probably the jankiest of the 4UCs we did, especially with the Inca changes. Tophets are extremely powerful, but the suffets are more of a side-grade than a straight upgrade from normal GGs/GAs.
 
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Yup, The Suffet is a full-blown GAdmiral in water, and that means that there is no possible way to add pathing onto land that isn't either a fort, citadel, or a city. You will have to establish a proper beachhead in order to get your Suffets onto a new continent.

Carthage is probably the jankiest of the 4UCs we did, especially with the Inca changes. Tophets are extremely powerful, but the suffets are more of a side-grade than a straight upgrade from normal GGs/GAs.

Suffets are indeed quite janky units, and it's unfortunate since the concept of the UC is, I think, an interesting one (credits go to JFD first of course) : where, in MUCfVP, Rome offers heavy synergies with GGeneral and a UU stacking during the Classical era, Carthage relies on a stable combat bonus (CS + ignore ZOC) that can be used by all units throughout the entire game and can bring different forms of economic and defensive bonus.

On paper, it sounds good (since Carthage will spawn Suffet whenever a GGor a GA should be spawned, it should have a similar number of "commandant units" as Rome if it fights as much at sea as on land), but there are two problems ingame :
- the "repair" action has two charges that are refilled whenever the Suffet transforms into a GA (so exploits are possible here)
- the inability for the GA to transform into a Suffet outside of Forts/Citadals/Cities takes out a part of the "polyvalence" the Suffet was meant to emphasize
+ a consequence that you must be aware of is that, if you transfrom your Suffet into an GA in a lake without adjacent Fort/Citadel/City, your unit won't be able to go back to its "Suffet form", and so will be stuck (this kind of event has never been signaled before outside of game tests, but still... don't move the Suffet carelessly around lakes).
 
Carthage is probably the jankiest of the 4UCs we did, especially with the Inca changes. Tophets are extremely powerful, but the suffets are more of a side-grade than a straight upgrade from normal GGs/GAs.

I loved the Tophet, it fits perfectly with Carthage's kit.

I'm ambivalent about the Suffet. I like that it tries to support the seafaring aspect of Carthage, but there isn't that much need for more admirals. Even if there was, it would be easier to give Quinqueremes a promotion for extra GA generation.

The Suffet's ZoC ability is often hampered by rough terrain, like forest and rivers. I think it misses either a movement bonus (like Parthian Tactics), or the ability to ignore terrain costs, to stand out. So far, I found it more useful in friendly lands, where your cavalry can use your roads to negate terrain features and hit from afar.

The beta changes to the flanking sytem don't help either, with nearby enemy units weakening the "ignore ZoC" attack. If you made use of the "ignore ZoC" effect, chances are that your unit is attacking near at least a second enemy supporting the target.

I noticed that the ZoC promotion is also applied on civilian units and on himself. I think a movement-related bonus on his ZoC promotion could have uses for unit purchases as well. Diplo units potentially reaching the destination a turn earlier, or morale units traveling to a distant front a bit faster, that could give Suffet a strategic use when garrisoned in key cities.
 
Taking a spin with The Inca, and... both added UCs feel a tad underwhelming now.

Qullqa amounts to +2 food and +5 heal over the base granary. Feels weak, though obviously one has to be careful with a building this early. To work with synergy, maybe it could claim a nearby unowned hill tile, if one exists? Or change the heal to +10 and remove maintenance cost? Something small. Alternatively alternatively, could a later building add yields to Coca (even though it's pretty much hidden under cities)?

Chasqui is in better shape(heh), and certainly feels better than the gamble of 'do I get a ruin upgrade and run away with all of the money?' that it had. Now it just feels like there's not much to make it stand out. Would Cover I be too overpowered, making its' niche being a really tough defensive spotter? Though that might be a tad easy to abuse, given how much the AI already loves to attack constantly healing, high-level scouts instead of something useful...

Anyway, just my thoughts as I started a new game. Keep up the great work!
 
Qullqa amounts to +2 food and +5 heal over the base granary. Feels weak, though obviously one has to be careful with a building this early. To work with synergy, maybe it could claim a nearby unowned hill tile, if one exists? Or change the heal to +10 and remove maintenance cost? Something small. Alternatively alternatively, could a later building add yields to Coca (even though it's pretty much hidden under cities)?
What about the increased worker speed and extra happiness though?
 
A new Beta of VP just released; it doesn't look like anything would interfere with the current 3/4UC build, but I am EXTREMELY NOT a programmer of any description, so I wanted to make sure.
 
A new Beta of VP just released; it doesn't look like anything would interfere with the current 3/4UC build, but I am EXTREMELY NOT a programmer of any description, so I wanted to make sure.
No changes that impact 4UC. Everything is totally good.

4UC's v39 isn't substantial enough to push a new version yet. We are adding an alternative names compatibility for all UCs, and there are minor balance tweaks for Suffet and Scythed Chariot in the next version, but that's all we have for now.
 
I put alternarive names into mucfvp only for a while. Now i have 0.5 version that works as standalone.
 
Optimizations that I can think of:
  • GGeneral replacements (suffet/inDuna) - these aren’t available as CS gifts, so we can lock their luas to a ifCivEverAlive check at game startup
  • Seir morb - the unitsetXY is very hungry. The promotion only needs to come into effect when it attacks. If we can make the unit function using a BattleJoined hook, then we can save a bit of processing
  • Dromon/Langskib- we can save a bit of processing by having SQL remove the fire debuff and the langskibs’ boost to stacked embarked unit’s through the plague mechanic. This would be extremely minor improvement, and maybe cause too much complication though
  • Gumey - we can save a tiny amount of resources by using the existing HasMonopoly value, rather than running our own ad/box monopoly calculation
 
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The druidism promotion that's retained when upgrading from a pictish warrior is not generating faith on kill.

Also, the extra WLTKD from towns/colonial appears to be broken in base VP right now, but is it intended that the oppidum has a value of '1' for Unit_ScalingFromOwnedImprovements when other improvements have 10/20?

Edit: now that I think about it, we might need to do this anyways to clear bugs. Having 2 different promotions that set the same binary value on the same unit to 'true' has historically caused some bugs.

The hussar ignores ZOC through the lightning warfare promotion and all mongolian mounted range units ignore ZOC through the UA. Haven't heard of any problems being reported from it.
 
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Hi! Just wanted to.. er.. indulge my creativity as self-arresting as I can be just so everyone can entertain it and not necessarily take it as serious suggestions, since game-play balance holds priority. ^ ^ ;;
Before this agonizing wall of text, just wanted to specially thank the devs for adding in "Chaebol" for Korea. Nothing rocks my day like a properly simulated symbol of evil monopoly! Carthage was developed great as well! Whoever came up with Suffet has my love as a history major.

Roman legions were iconic and unique for many reasons, but when it came just to combat it was rapid fort building, mobility, and adaptive mimicry. Being the millenia-spanning idea the legion is, I'm assuming VP focused on the Augustan era of Roman legionnaires. For the sake of that context, I just thought it'd be more immersive and a more versatile take on recognizing distinctly Roman things about the legion if the Pilum passive damage was reduced to just 5, but legions had the ability to fortify every turn no matter what. Also, it'd be interesting if Roman legions could be expended in a city to lead to a random outcome of one of the following (not up to the player to choose)
- improve/repair a random tile of that city to simulate the settling of veterans.
- provide a small but versatile bonus of gold, golden age points, and culture to simulate the celebration of triumphs.
- spawn a slave unit that costs no maintenance in place of the expended legion to simulate the vast number of slaves triumphs brought to Roman urban hubs.
- convert the city like a missionary with moderate strength like 250.
- expend in the city for a small instant production boost.

“Their sons are educated from the time they are five years old until they are twenty, but they study only three things: horsemanship, archery, and honesty.” - Herodotus on Persian nobles
Persians were known for many things, but militarily speaking, they were always iconic for their mastery of combined arms focused on archery. Perhaps, somewhat like Frederick the Great VP version, the Persian combat bonus during golden ages can be reduced to 10%, but instead gain a unique promotion (named something like "Kamandaran" for all ranged archer type units, giving them 10% bonus to ranged attack when adjacent to a melee unit. They were also known for an eventual marriage with nomadic traditions to form the very cataphracts that would inspire Byzantine Clibanarii. Perhaps the immortals could be altered to upgrade to knights, instead of pikemen, so they may literally symbolize the birth of a knightly class of warrior nobility who were cataphracts, but closely related to the immortal tradition. A Persian civ could inherit the defensive bonus from VP immortals, and thus retain it on the Qzilbash. To bring the immortals in line with other unique units decorated with unique promotions, perhaps their boring +25% defense bonus can be turned into a unique promotion (named something like "Zhayedan") giving +20% defense bonus, an additional 10% when stacked with a general. The Persian region itself was characterized by the "Eastern mantle" of satrap-reliant central authority, which enforced a flow of trade and culture into imperial capitals like Susa, Ekbatana, Ctesiphon, Persepolis, and so forth. To recognize that aspect, I revised the UB - Paradise Garden this way, with changed aspects in Italics.

Available at Theology
350 :c5production: Production cost

does not require River
+2 :c5culture: Culture and +1 :tourism: Tourism, +1 :c5culture: Culture and +2 :tourism: Tourism in the Capital.
+2 :c5gold: Gold to Silk and Dyes
+1 :c5food: Food and +1 :c5gold: Gold to Oases

+35% :c5greatperson: Great Person Points
+3% :c5goldenage: Golden Age Length OR -2% tile improvement maintenance cost (Royal Roads)
30 :c5culture: Culture when a :c5goldenage: Golden Age begins

It's a real shame that Macedon and Greece wasn't separated since their melding into a hellenic umbrella that vanilla civ 5 made of greece sacrificed the most iconic phalangitai, or companion cavalry, which redefined military conquest throughout the Mediterranean. I'm not sure, but if the Hoplite's unique promotions are inherited into their pikemen upgrades as legacy promotions it's wholly acceptable as an indirect reference to macedonian pikes. Cavalry, however, is somewhat omitted. Perhaps Greek cavalry can have a barely impactful but nonetheless immersive unique promotion (named something like "Flying Wedge") which gives only the stacked unit +15% flanking damage bonus when stacked with a general OR ignore ZOC. This is something I myself find unsettling from a balance perspective but I had to throw it out there.

The Celts seem fun, but it seemed to lack the incorporation of the greater world of linguistically celtic cultures on mainland Europe. The following for Epona and the emphasis on horsemanship (which was so appealing late Romans themselves worshiped her in cavalry regiments), for example, seemed to be one loss. Nevertheless, I thought the oppidum represented the relevant bonuses to pastures and camps, so I relented from trying to come up with something for Epona. I thought the only thing the Celts might benefit from for immersion was an addition of up to 15% combat strength the closer a unit is to their capital, OR just 10% defense bonus in friendly territory to the Druidism promotion to give Vercingetorix and Calgacus a recognition as well.

I always thought the mongols were the worst civ in vanilla Civ V, since their actual strength which made horse archery so OP was ignored. It's their unconventional logistical supremacy as hordes during a climate shift which turned anywhere with grazing fields an inevitable conquest for the Mongols, since as long as there was grass, the horde did not need supply trains and could outlast sieges forever.. Reversely, a lack of grass alone really impeded them in Napolean fashion, since their horses were rarely adaptable for desert or tundra.. hence, I thought a unique promotion (with an endless potential for names "Despoilers of Khwarezmia", or "Relentless Horde", or "Fall of Baghdad") giving all mounted units giving 15% combat bonus on all clear tiles with grassland/plain and a -15% penalty elsewhere would be appropriate, though I'm not sure about balance. I also thought the Mongols should have a doubled quantity of the horse resource, with Russia losing that part of their UA. Perhaps this would make the Mongols what they were intended to be, a hit or miss civ which gains immense advantages during the medieval era, like what the huns or Romans get through a certain period of time

Speaking of Russia, I thought their UA should be further torn apart (Sorry, Russia) to cede the doubling of iron resource to Assyria. So their UA would be double strategic resources except Horse and Iron. Otherwise, the UC this expansion added to Catherine the Great seemed immersive enough.

And finally.. Egypt. Civ 6 emphasized Cleopatra's royal economy of .. a harsh feudal system of taxing food to ship them off by making trade routes sent to Egypt yield some food back to the sender. Hence I thought the following...

UB - Nilometer (replaces Water Mill):
can be built in city without River
+2 :c5food: Food, +2 :c5production: Production and +1 :c5culture: Culture.
+2 :c5production: Production for every 5 :c5citizen: Citizen
on construction spawns 2 Flax Resources in the City
+1 food in the capital OR +2 food for those who send trade routes to this city in exchange for +1 culture for Egypt.

I don't actually seriously think these arbitrary and overkill ideas are valid suggestions.. I just hope this might spark off some better ideas that might actually be worthwhile!
Please share with me your thoughts! :)
 
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