More Unique Components for Vox Populi

3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

Proposal for Madrasah Change:

Old Madrasah
UB - Madrasah (replaces University):
available at Education
300 :c5production: Production cost

+2 :c5faith:Faith and +3 :c5science: Science
+1 :c5science: Science to Jungle
+15% :c5greatperson: Great Person Points
1 :c5science: Scientist Specialist Slot
Reduces :c5unhappy: Illiteracy
15 :c5science: Science on :c5faith: Faith Purchase, scaling with era (increased to 75 :c5science: on Great Person :c5faith: Faith Purchase)
25% of the :c5science: Science Output of the City as an instant boost to your current Research on :c5citizen: Citizen Birth

New Madrasah
UB - Madrasah (replaces University):
available at Education
300 :c5production: Production cost

+2 :c5faith:Faith, +3 :c5science: Science, +2:c5culture: Culture
+1 :c5science: Science to Jungle
1 :c5science: Scientist Specialist Slot
Reduces :c5unhappy: Illiteracy
5 :c5faith:Faith, :c5science: Science, and :c5culture: Culture Whenever a Great Person is Expended, Scaling with Era
20 :c5science: Science
on :c5faith: Faith Purchase, scaling with era (increased to 100 :c5science: on Great Person :c5faith: Faith Purchase)
25% of the :c5science: Science Output of the City as an instant boost to your current Research on :c5citizen: Citizen Birth

Changes:
  • Add culture to base yields - current yields are identical to Seowon
  • Remove % :c5greatperson:GPP rate, replace with Yields on GP Expend - Yields on GP expend is currently only used on UofSankore (a Madrasah :D), and it gets us away from similarities with Korea's kit, since Korea gets bonuses to GP rate in UA.
  • Increase Faith purchase bonus - It's the most unique thing about the Madrasah, the Seowon was kicking Madrasah's ass, and there's now a Belief which is slightly better than the current Madrasah's ability.
 
Hmm, I noticed that the secondary ability of the University of Coimbra is not functioning. It is not providing the +1:c5production: and +2:c5gold: when a Feitoria is built on a City-State's territory.
 
Proposal for Madrasah Change:



New Madrasah
UB - Madrasah (replaces University):
available at Education
300 :c5production: Production cost

+2 :c5faith:Faith, +3 :c5science: Science, +2:c5culture: Culture
+1 :c5science: Science to Jungle
1 :c5science: Scientist Specialist Slot
Reduces :c5unhappy: Illiteracy
5 :c5faith:Faith, :c5science: Science, and :c5culture: Culture Whenever a Great Person is Expended, Scaling with Era
20 :c5science: Science
on :c5faith: Faith Purchase, scaling with era (increased to 100 :c5science: on Great Person :c5faith: Faith Purchase)
25% of the :c5science: Science Output of the City as an instant boost to your current Research on :c5citizen: Citizen Birth

It's surely more interesting now, this UB was a bit weak previously . The problem is balancing the yields on GP expend. Arabia has already a lot of passive culture/science through UA, and they're able to generate a lot of GP, so giving "noble" yields such as culture and science on expend could make it too strong/hard to balance. Alternatively, if this is the case, you could buff a bit faith purchases, removing :c5science::c5culture: on expend and replacing them with :c5goldenage: golden age points.
 
Alternatively, if this is the case, you could buff a bit faith purchases, removing :c5science::c5culture: on expend and replacing them with :c5goldenage: golden age points.
Definitely staying clear of GAPs because that is the exact same thing that Korea's UA gives on GP expend. The 2 civs are bleeding into each other enough already.

I also considered making it :c5faith:/:c5culture:/:c5production:, rather than :c5faith:/:c5culture:/:c5science:, but I worried it might look weird with production thrown in the mix all of a sudden. Arabia gets solid :c5faith:/:c5science: from their bazaar already, so then the only overlap would be the :c5faith:, which is probably unavoidable, given what the building is.

Madrasas are, oddly enough, not really technical or scientific institutions. They taught philosophy, art, theology, law, etc. They often formed the basis of what we would call primary and secondary education today. Scientific research was centered in the royal courts of Islamic society. Some :c5science: is fitting for a Madrasa because Civ uses :c5science: to reflect basic literacy/public education just as often as it denotes great scientific leaps.
 
You could ask @Gazebo for a YieldFromFaithPurchase for buildings in addition to the new one for beliefs. Then you could do away with the Madrasah lua.
I could just as well come to G with a whole laundry list of features and tables to add.

While I agree that it would be much simpler, I worry about making a nuisance of myself. G has stated on many occasions that he is reticent to add more tables to the mod due to memory constraints. We're at the point where any new feature effectively needs to have something else taken out/optimized to make room. I already had G make a new yields table for improvements back in December, so I will hold off for a time, at least.

If 2 or more modders ask for the same table addition, however, I think that would make the idea much more palatable. I would feel less guilty asking for a change if I was asking for it on both mine and your behalf, for example.
 
@Hinin

Regarding the Swedish and French Public School UB, here are just my thoughts. I'm sure other people have more experience but maybe I can provide another perspective that may or may not help. However, I doubt we can look at the UB without looking at their entire kit. Below are my thoughts on a few things that come to my mind and I won't be taking into account of Enlightenment era since I just recent started using that.

Spoiler :

Looking at the UA of both Sweden and France, it's clear that Authority seems like the ideal ancient era policy tree. For Sweden, it's an absolute must with their synergy with Great Generals. With France, I guess you can pick other routes and still make it work if you're pretty good.

What's the strength of Authority? They are meant to give you a significant edge in early game wars. While bullying CS and hunting barbarian camps are vital, they cannot compare to your defeating your neighbors. Capturing enemy cities means you grow stronger and your enemies grow weaker. That's how you snowball.

Now, when do we war? Generally, it's either the early game when you are more or less on par in techs with your enemies or when your UU comes online. If you are Sweden or France and you wait until you get your Tercio UU, then I believe that's a big mistake. You'd be behind (degree depends on your difficulty) in techs and, on Standard speed, the window of opportunity for you to really take advantage of your UU is going to be smaller. It's doable but it's going to be hard for sure.

Why am I bringing this up? I guess I want to figure out the purpose of the UB. Public School is available late mid-game but I guess it's usually late game for higher difficulty since the game is entering a stage where it will be ending soon with a snowballing player or AI gunning for that finish line. I'd like your thoughts on this because I can only share what little experience I have with that era.

First, we'll look at the French UB. The Grande École gives 1 :c5production: Production and 1 :c5science: Science for every 2 :c5citizen: Citizens in the city. I think it's fair to say that cities are reasonably large at that point and, if the player is doing everything correctly, then the capital can have a very high population. In addition to more yields from specialist which is quite possible at that stage unless you halted growth a lot, you also get more yields from the building itself (or am I misreading the +3 :c5production: Production, +5 :c5science: Science and +1:c5culture: Culture. Depending on whether or not you need more :c5production: Production or :c5science: Science, you can change what specialists you want to prioritize. That is certainly something you don't enjoy with the Swedish Public School UB. The Grande École is (always?) a must since France does well with Artistry and Louvre is that Wonder you should get along with the ability to get Archaeologists.

Secondly, we'll look at the Swedish UB. The Skola requires less :c5production: Production to build and less Maintenance. The Maintenance shouldn't matter at that point unless you're really starving for gold. At that point, I think you have bigger problems. Being able to get the UB faster is definitely a big plus regardless of the speeds. You get 1 :c5science: Science for every 1 :c5citizen: Citizens in the city. That's double the :c5science: Science of France if you have same sized cities. It also gives 1:c5culture: Culture for every 3 :c5citizen: Citizens which, while nice, isn't that impressive. There was a reason why people stopped taking Inspiration when it was nerfed to that ratio. Inspiration also came earlier when :c5culture: Culture played a larger role so you can imagine the impact of the Culture you can get by the time this UB is available. The Skola does give 2 :c5science: Scientist Specialist slots compared to the 1 from the Grande École so that's more potential :c5science: science if you want to work it. One issue I see here is how Public School requires Scientific Theory while Fusiliers comes from Rifling. Do you prioritize wars or your UB? That's never an easy choice if you aren't ahead and, if you are ahead, then you probably already snowballed at that point.

Can anyone confirm is the Grande École reduces more Illiteracy than Skola? Ones say Greatly reduces while the other is just reduces. That can make a big difference too.

Let's look at the French UI now. Chateau is certainly one of the stronger UI in my opinion as those yields are quite strong. The requirements for where you can build it can be rather dependent on the map but that's part of the fun. Chivalry will be prioritized if you went Authority anyways so that's perfect. The extra defense bonus can help you whittle down enemy forces before making a push yourself.

How about the other Swedish UB? This UB, in my opinion, seems very buffed. Maybe it's buffed due to how alright the Skola is. Baths are great building with a terrain requirement that isn't possible. The Bastu ignores that which in itself makes it really good. The fact that it promotes you to grow your cities more makes it work very well with Skola as you'll have enormous :c5science: Science output at that point. I like the way they synergizes well together but they don't make Sweden OP. Why? Sweden should be utilizing its UA early game so, by the time Metal Casting is available, you should be in a decent position.

What are my thoughts of these two UB? Skola is in an awkward place in the tech tree and requires you to make a difficult decision if you wish to war more or not. I do wonder if it's worth it to go Skola when you can instead strengthen your military and just conquer your neighbors. Meanwhile, Grande École works really well for France who doesn't necessarily needs a Domination Victory to win. Going for CV is certainly viable with the French kit. In addition to some powerful yields like :c5production: Production, you also get a lot more versatility with the Grande École. I think a slight nerf might be needed for Grande École but I have to see it in action. Just looking at the numbers on paper, Grande École is, in my opinion, at least 2 times better than Skola. Looking at the whole kit, I'd have to say that France has more versatility when it comes to DV and CV while Sweden seems to have to make a detour if this civ wants to bring the full potential of its kit.

These are just my two cents though. Correct me if you think I didn't make a valid point. I like to hear other people's thoughts on this.
 
Here's my assessment:
France:
UA: :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Okay pretty hard to use well. Highly dependent on already winning. You get the best use of the UA when you are behind in tech, and plinking a stronger, more advanced unit with many weaker units. That's not a place you want to be in just so you can use your UA better. Very potent for city-taking though
UI: :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Good. Solid yields which can help flip to a CV, a little. Gives France a much-needed defensive edge to help compensate for the ultra-aggressive UA.
UU1: (Musketeer): :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: It's fine. It's meat and potatoes power and movement. Nothing exceptional about it except it hits pretty hard.
UB: :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Good. Strong yields that help more with wide. The production combines with the UA's production boost well, and helps push late wars or CV projects. The production gives a lot of flexibility to pursue whatever VC seems most likely
UU2 (SPAD): :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Fine. The best thing about this unit is how it knocks on the UA. attacks from air units trigger esprit de corp, so this unit is all about that. As with any other air unit, the limitation is HP, not number of actions, and SPAD doesn't do anything to help that.

Total: 17 :c5capital:stars

Sweden:
UA: :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Fantastic. Laser-focused on a domination victory, but extremely flexible within that VC. Has immediate bonuses in all circumstances -- offense and defense -- and singlehandedly makes Sweden a threat long before it gets its UUs/UBs up.
UB1 (Skola): :c5capital::c5capital: Bad. A :c5science:/:c5culture: battery, with no obvious synergies with the rest of Sweden's kit. Maybe it helps an unlikely SV, but otherwise it comes too late, and won't make up for lost time.
UU1 (Carolean): :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Good. Lots of staying power, and combines very well with medic ranged units. Combined with Authority's heal on kill, the Carolean just keeps on comin' Note: has been moved back to Fusilier for 4UC so it can combine with Hakka, and give more punch.
UB2 (Bastu):c5capital::c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Our attempt to save the Skola. Skola depends entirely on :c5citizen: to generate its yields, but Sweden has no ability (or good reason) to go tall. This building allows that SV potential to have a place to land, and gives a small bit of :c5science: to help get you ahead of the tech curve.
UU2: :c5capital::c5capital: (Hakkapeliitta) bad. Not horrible, but bad. The nice thing about it is with Charge I, you can get Charge II up at level 2. Otherwise, the Hakka gives a bit of utility and GG generation, but isn't a drastic improvement over the base Lancer.

Total: 17 :c5capital:Stars

If we find that GE needs a nerf. I would propose removing the 1:c5production: per :c5citizen:2 scaler, increase the base yields to 5:c5science:5:c5production:1:c5culture:, and call it a day. That would differentiate it more from the Skola, who is all about those pop scalers.
 
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Here's my assessment:
France:
UA: :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Okay pretty hard to use well. Highly dependent on already winning.
UI: :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Good. Solid yields which can help flip to a CV, a little. Gives France a much-needed defensive edge to help compensate for the ultra-aggressive UA.
UU1: (Musketeer): :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: It's fine. It's meat and potatoes power and movement. Nothing exceptional about it except it hits pretty hard.
UB: :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Good. Strong yields that help more with wide. The production combines with the UA's production boost well, and helps push late wars or CV projects. The production gives a lot of flexibility to pursue whatever VC seems most likely
UU2 (SPAD): :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Fine. The best thing about this unit is how it knocks on the UA. attacks from air units trigger esprit de corp, so this unit is all about that. As with any other air unit, the limitation is HP, not number of actions, and SPAD doesn't do anything to help that.

Total: 17 :c5capital:stars

Sweden:
UA: :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Fantastic. Laser-focused on a domination victory, but extremely flexible within that VC. Has immediate bonuses in all circumstances -- offense and defense -- and singlehandedly makes Sweden a threat long before it gets its UUs/UBs up.
UB1 (Skola): :c5capital::c5capital: Bad. A :c5science:/:c5culture: battery, with no obvious synergies with the rest of Sweden's kit. Maybe it helps an unlikely SV, but otherwise it comes too late, and won't make up for lost time.
UU1 (Carolean): :c5capital::c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Good. Lots of staying power, and combines very well with medic ranged units. Combined with Authority's heal on kill, the Carolean just keeps on comin' Note: has been moved back to Fusilier for 4UC so it can combine with Hakka, and give more punch.
UB2 (Bastu):c5capital::c5capital::c5capital::c5capital: Our attempt to save the Skola. Skola depends entirely on :c5citizen: to generate its yields, but Sweden has no ability (or good reason) to go tall. This building allows that SV potential to have a place to land, and gives a small bit of :c5science: to help get you ahead of the tech curve.
UU2: :c5capital::c5capital: (Hakkapeliitta) bad. Not horrible, but bad. The nice thing about it is with Charge I, you can get Charge II up at level 2. Otherwise, the Hakka gives a bit of utility and GG generation, but isn't a drastic improvement over the base Lancer.

Total: 17 :c5capital:Stars

If we find that GE needs a nerf. I would propose removing the 1:c5production: per :c5citizen:2 scaler, increase the base yields to 5:c5science:5:c5production:1:c5culture:, and call it a day. That would differentiate it more from the Skola, who is all about those pop scalers.

These assessments are interesting. Let me start a new photojournal to check how these work on Standard Speed King Difficulty. If I understand the French UA properly as I have yet to play them, I think that UA deserves more stars than you are giving them. I also want to see if the Swedish UU2 is indeed bad. Yes, it's a slightly better Lancer but I have found Lancers to be more problematic than Knights given the tools you'll have at that point. Now I'm really curious about how this all works out.
 
If you can manage to stay on offence, france’s UA is great. I knocked it down strictly for its lack of defensive utility. I don’t think any UA which relies on city conquests can be considered high tier; too unreliable

I know we've gotten complaints about Hakka in the past and I didn't change anything. I hadn't aimed to make the unit anything wonderful; a cavalry unit getting augmented with 30% CS from GGenerals and +20% on attack is already hitting really hard.
 
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Just had a quick game with France and I have to say that their defenses can solid with how the UA works. The extra damage against a unit the more attacks you do against is pretty enormous. Early game, you have 10% which isn't negligible. If I have mounted cavalry and ranged units focus a unit, I can badly wound it or kill it. If the enemy has lots of enemy units, I can wound more units with fewer units and that will make defense easier, not harder. Imagine getting Logistics on a unit and that unit can be devastating if you do your attacks in order. I'd give the French UA at least 4 stars if not 5 stars.
 
Just had a quick game with France and I have to say that their defenses can solid with how the UA works. The extra damage against a unit the more attacks you do against is pretty enormous. Early game, you have 10% which isn't negligible. If I have mounted cavalry and ranged units focus a unit, I can badly wound it or kill it. If the enemy has lots of enemy units, I can wound more units with fewer units and that will make defense easier, not harder. Imagine getting Logistics on a unit and that unit can be devastating if you do your attacks in order. I'd give the French UA at least 4 stars if not 5 stars.
France UA in my personal standard is second only to China. You have very early GAWM by just taking 2 cities, very nice culture and production boost in all cities on conquest and a very strong combat boost.
 
France UA in my personal standard is second only to China. You have very early GAWM by just taking 2 cities, very nice culture and production boost in all cities on conquest and a very strong combat boost.

The irony is that it's too early since you don't have a slot for Musician and Writer, lol. Otherwise, it's very powerful for CV and DV regardless of what you pick. I can't believe I'm only just playing this civ now. xD
 
I played around with France for a quick game; never made it past classical.

I didn't find I had much use for the esprit de corp bonus unless I was hitting a city. If I'm plinking a single unit 3-4 times then it's probably dead no matter who I am, unless I'm behind in tech and I'm trying to take down a powerful unit.

I fully expect that as the armies get bigger in later ages that it's a much larger tactical advantage, but I'm just not much of a warmonger, so I'm not a good judge of these things :/

But yeah, I know the feeling of just kinda glossing over a certain civ. I have a small hate-boner for Roman history, and how obsessed everyone else is about the Romans, so I didn't play them for a long time. When I had to test our UCs for Rome if had a little come to Jesus moment, like "This civ is really fun... God dammit"
 
What I dont like about France is its UU, the musketeer doesnt fit very well with France UA, Id rather have more ranged or mounted units to take advantage of my UA than to have musketeer. But France alread powerful enough to play even without musketeer.
 
@pineappledan

This probably got missed in my mountain of texts but does Grande École decrease more illiteracy than Skola? The description says "greatly reduces" as opposed to "reduces." If true, then that's another strength of Grande École. Otherwise, I think fixing that wording will help avoid confusion.
 
Definitely staying clear of GAPs because that is the exact same thing that Korea's UA gives on GP expend. The 2 civs are bleeding into each other enough already.

I also considered making it :c5faith:/:c5culture:/:c5production:, rather than :c5faith:/:c5culture:/:c5science:, but I worried it might look weird with production thrown in the mix all of a sudden. Arabia gets solid :c5faith:/:c5science: from their bazaar already, so then the only overlap would be the :c5faith:, which is probably unavoidable, given what the building is.

Madrasas are, oddly enough, not really technical or scientific institutions. They taught philosophy, art, theology, law, etc. They often formed the basis of what we would call primary and secondary education today. Scientific research was centered in the royal courts of Islamic society. Some :c5science: is fitting for a Madrasa because Civ uses :c5science: to reflect basic literacy/public education just as often as it denotes great scientific leaps.


Another idea is the Madrasah could have an extra Scientist. The Seowon has lost it when it was moved earlier.

I would rather see :c5faith:/:c5culture:/:c5production: than :c5faith:/:c5culture:/ :c5science: when you expand a GP. The Faith purchases already give :c5science:. No need to double down on it. Faith has good synergy. Hope adding both :c5culture: to the Base Yield and expanding GP's don't give Arabia too much Culture.
 
@amateurgamer88, I checked through the code and I need to make a correction.

Grande ecole does NOT reduce illiteracy more than the Skola/public school
 
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Hope adding both :c5culture: to the Base Yield and expanding GP's don't give Arabia too much Culture.
Hopefully that shouldn't be a problem. The bazaar doesn't give any culture, so Arabia doesn't have any source for wide culture except the Madrasah.
Bazaars give +2:c5gold:/:c5science:/:c5faith: over the normal market, and Madrasas give +2:c5faith:/:c5culture:.
No one seems overly concerned about making Arabia's buildings faith batteries, and that's the only overlap.
 
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