3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[knml]

I found a bug. The game no longer lets me build the east india company after the pogost from russia's UB reaches stage 2.

 

[pineappledan]

The Kabuki bug which would kill your population also affected the Pogost. I would have preferred if the different stages of the Pogost didn't have to exist separately from each other, and could replace each other in the city, but that isn't a workable system. I am going to revert to Pogost to how it was originally coded by @adan_eslavo.

There should be a manual for civ5 modders out there with a list of rules, and one of those rules should be “never delete a building with a specialist or a great work slot”. This appears to have been common knowledge for years with older modders, but you have to know the right questions to ask

 

[pineappledan]

It’s gonna be a major compatibility update with the new global happiness mechanics. All defensive line buildings are going to get a happiness modifier

 

[H0dgvikin]

Recently been trying out Mongolia. It seems that researching Philosophy does not trigger the construction of Yassa court in my cities. Is this a bug?

As a sidenote, rushing cities with Black Tug is fun. Definitely not as powerful as the Spanish Conquistadors, but Mongolia already has the super mobile skirmishers.

 

[pineappledan]

It worked fine in my own game, and I haven’t touched anything. The Yassa court is only constructed in unoccupied cities; you have to build them yourself in annexed/puppeted cities

 

[H0dgvikin]

Okay. Then maybe it's because of my other mods. I might test around with it later.

 

[pineappledan]

What is your mod list? It sounds like you’re having problems with lua functions in general. @Giza is having similar issues, and someone else was noting a weird interaction with 4UC and Unique city-states. For now, I wouldn’t recommend using UCS and E&D with 4UC

 

[H0dgvikin]

I have been using Enlightenment Era too for the previous game.

Right now I started a new game without EE (but with many other mods that improve UI), but the Yassa court doesn't seem to be built either when I use InfoAddict (edit: IGE) to research Philosophy.

 

[pineappledan]

EE shouldn’t be a problem. I haven’t tried enabling things via infoaddict; I use firetuner. I can’t speak to whether infoaddict would actually trigger the construction of the building properly. Have you tried settling a new city after philosophy is researched?

 

[Serind]

Huey Teocalli dosen't work again . could it be related to Coimbra bug someone reported few pages earlier?

 

[pineappledan]

Try replacing the modinfo file with the one I attached 2 pages back. There seems to have been an issue with dependencies, etc, with this new version and it prevented certain Luas from working

There is nothing wrong with the code; it has been working fine for over a year on Huey teocalli, and the bug you claim existed previously was just people not understanding how the building worked

 

[H0dgvikin]

EE shouldn’t be a problem. I haven’t tried enabling things via infoaddict; I use firetuner. I can’t speak to whether infoaddict would actually trigger the construction of the building properly. Have you tried settling a new city after philosophy is researched?

Sorry, should be IGE instead of InfoAddict (I always use these two mods together, so I often mixed them up)

With some experiment with IGE, settling a new city after researching philosophy doesn't seem to trigger the construction properly.

 

[Serind]

Try replacing the modinfo file with the one I attached 2 pages back. There seems to have been an issue with dependencies, etc, with this new version and it prevented certain Luas from working

There is nothing wrong with the code; it has been working fine for over a year on Huey teocalli, and the bug you claim existed previously was just people not understanding how the building worked

Somehow had version 43 , Huey Teocalli works now, but Coimbra is still bugged (+2 Gold and +1 Production in City where U of Coimbra is built for every Feitoria built in Foreign Territory part), but in case it's yet another wonder i don't understand can somebody else also check it?

 

[amateurgamer88]

I was wondering about people's thoughts on Assyria's Iron Chariot.

First, this unit replaces a Horsemen which is a very powerful unit in the Ancient Era and remains so until the rise of Knights. The Iron Chariot starts off with a CS of 12 compared to a Horseman's CS of 14. Once Horses are improved and they are greater than Iron Chariots, then the two units are on par with CS. If you have enough Iron and improve those, the Iron Chariot will have 2 more CS than Horseman. There seems to be a lot of work to make Iron Chariot possess more CS than Horsemen.

Secondly, both units have 4 Movements but the Iron Chariot ends its turn entering rough terrain. This was one of the reason why people don't build Chariot Archers as they are too situational and there are more important things to build. With Iron Chariot replacing Horsemen, it seems like mobility on a lot of maps suddenly disappeared and that makes hit and runs harder. To me at least, hit and run is the bread and butter of mounted units. Sometimes, the best way to deal with ranged mounted units is with melee mounted units. In the early game when Iron Chariot are in action, most Jungle and Forests remain untouched so that's additional obstacles in their way.

Thirdly, the Iron Chariot gets CS bonus for each adjacent Enemy Military Unit. I thought the idea of melee mounted units is to hit the flanks and be able to withdraw? If you have lots of adjacent enemy units, then you'll end your turn with an attack due to ZoC. In addition, the Iron Chariot gets no defensive bonuses so such a situation won't help it survive much better.

Maybe I'm missing something but I feel like Iron Chariot is a nerfed version of the Horsemen. I'm sorry if this has been brought up but, playing Assyria lately, I'm trying to figure out their purpose as their kit makes me just want normal Horsemen. I will admit that their kit is unique but, when I want the replaced unit more, I wonder if their design is flawed in some way. Maybe people here can explain to me how these Iron Chariots are superior in other ways.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Well, Iron Chariots used to be way tougher in both Fury of Nergal and raw CS, then got nerfed(because they were pretty ridiculous) - and nerfed again when the horsemen went from 15 to 14. The mobility one is a good point, but one has to be careful - they are still really good in open terrain at potentially 16+ CS very early on.

However, the rough terrain movement malus does feel really awkward if your starting position is not favorable. It's a tough call.

 

[amateurgamer88]

I can see how they can be a lot tougher but, following the nerfs, it feels like they got very little love. In addition, 16+ CS doesn't seem that easy to get. Improving Horses gives you 14 CS so, to get over 16 CS, you need 3 adjacent enemy units (unless my math is off). Being Adjacent to 3 enemy units seems like a mistake as you want the unit to have the ability to move freely and not worry about ZoC.

As for improving Iron, that seems so awkward given where the techs are. Normally, I'd ignore Bronze Working if I got Military Theory since Horsemen are drastically better than Spearmen. I'd focus on other techs instead like Writing and Mathematics as they will help me more. To go for Bronze Working to make Iron Chariot better seems out of place.

Honestly, I will pick a War Elephant over the Iron Chariot if given an opportunity. After all, the War Elephant has a high CS of 17 and, despite having 1 less Movement, still got more mobility unless you have a large stretch of flat terrain which we sadly have little control of. War Elephants also provides the fear that supports nearby units.

Like I said, Iron Chariot is in such an awkward place and they replace such a powerful unit. Just giving my two cents.

 

[pineappledan]

Honestly, I will pick a War Elephant over the Iron Chariot if given an opportunity. After all, the War Elephant has a high CS of 17 and, despite having 1 less Movement, still got more mobility unless you have a large stretch of flat terrain which we sadly have little control of. War Elephants also provides the fear that supports nearby units.

Why would you ignore iron working with Assyria? Statue of Zeus is pretty much a core wonder for them. There's plenty of time in classical to make use of your chariots; you don't have to delay everything just to get your UU as fast as possible.
I flatly didn't want to make a unit that was better than war elephants. War elephants are 25% more expensive.
I was contemplating increasing the bonus to 10% per adjacent enemy. Keep in mind this bonus can simply be viewed as a straight flanking bonus, even against a single enemy. Flanking pretty much works the same way. You will always get +7%, which is exactly +1 if you are at 14 if you are next to any enemy, ie. every time you attack or defend on melee attack.

The best part about iron chariots, imo is that you can start building them before you have improved the requisite horses/iron. You can be hilt-deep inside someone else's empire and suddenly get +2 on all your chariots because an iron deposit was improved. It dissociates the unit from having a rigid build order.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Why would you ignore iron working with Assyria? Statue of Zeus is pretty much a core wonder for them. There's plenty of time in classical to make use of your chariots; you don't have to delay everything just to get your UU as fast as possible.
I flatly didn't want to make a unit that was better than war elephants. War elephants are 25% more expensive.
I was contemplating increasing the bonus to 10% per adjacent enemy. Keep in mind this bonus can simply be viewed as a straight flanking bonus. Flanking pretty much works the same way.

For Assyria, we have the Royal Library as the UNW that's available from Writing. That extra boost of Science can get you much more ahead than what the Iron Chariot can do once you settle a number of cities. Pulling ahead in tech means you'll have better units overall like Skirmishers and Catapults. Let's not forget that, once you are some ways ahead, the free techs you'll get is far more worthwhile than the Ancient Era techs.

On the topic of Statue of Zeus, you have to more or less beeline for it. I think the greediest you can get is Stonehenge into Statue of Zeus (though you are unlikely to go for Pottery if you are going Statue of Zeus). However, you must look at where Bronze Working is. To get Bronze Working, you need Mining researched. Bronze Working gives you Spearman (a decent unit for Ancient Era rushes but not much else) and reveals Iron. Mining is also needed for Construction and that gives you the other UB (Lamassu Gate). To get access to the Iron Chariot, you need The Wheel and Animal Husbandry.

With all of these so spread out, how do you prioritize your techs? If you go for Statue of Zeus, then you are delaying your Iron Chariot and Royal Library. I feel the Lamassu Gate is pretty meh and helps in a more defensive playstyle that's opposite of Statue of Zeus. Statue of Zeus also gives you a Barracks so that's pretty good. However, you now have to research three more techs to unlock the Iron Chariot. What if you have a luxury that requires Fishing, Calendar or Construction? Do you delay those techs?

Since you didn't go for Royal Library, your Science is going to be horrible, especially since your production has been mostly the key buildings like Monument and Shrine along with the Statue of Zeus. Yes, you might say that you can then conquer your neighbors to get back the Science. In the event that you went for Bronze Working followed by Military Theory, you have researched 5 techs at this point with 2 of them at the second column. On higher difficulties, you can be sure that the AI will have more techs than you. In addition to the time you spent getting those 5 techs, you also need turns to get the Iron Chariot. Since you have a Barrack in your capital, you will want to build your units and buy you Worker. Let's assume you went Authority and got God of War for your Pantheon for that extra Production boost. Your Production in your capital will be okay, not amazing, until you cleared some Barbarian Camps and demanded some Tributes.

What will your composition look like? 1 Iron Chariot with some Spearmen? 2 Iron Chariots and 1 Siege Tower with some Spearmen? By then, what are the odds of your neighbor having both Archers and Spearmen? It's true that the Iron Chariot will be quite strong but you still have to heal them if you are faced with with Spearmen and such. What if your opponent got Skirmishers? These units can make use of rough terrain for hit and run. I think you get the idea that the AIs will be better prepared to deal with Iron Chariots by the time you are ready. The issue is that there isn't a huge window you can make use of it before the AI will have ways to counter it (like Skirmishers and their own Horsemen) and that's also dependent on the terrain. Classical Era, at least when you enter it, will see Iron Chariots harder to use as I know the AIs love their Skirmishers.

I apologize for the wall of texts but it doesn't make sense to me as Iron Chariots have such a glaring weakness and are far too dependent on the terrain. While Statue of Zeus is nice, it's not integral since Assyria doesn't have issues taking down cities with the help of the Siege Tower. It's the question of how you can rid your enemy's units so you can lay siege that's an issue. If you have an AI with lots of rough terrain nearby (Aztecs, Iroquois, Inca), then I'd wish I have Horsemen at my disposal. If you delay your Iron Chariot, then the AIs will have more tools (and more numbers depending on the difficulty) to deal with them.

 

[pineappledan]

What if we shifted Iron chariots to Iron working?

 

[amateurgamer88]

What if we shifted Iron chariots to Iron working?

Well, I don't like Iron Chariots replacing the Horsemen. If they can be a replacement to the Chariot Archer (though that's Egypt's realm) or a replacement for Swordsmen (with few movements to compensate), then I find it fine. Horsemen are just too defining for Ancient Era so you'd expect an upgrade, even a minor one, if you replace them with a UU.

Another idea I'm considering is if we have both Iron Chariots (maybe replacing the War Elephant?) and Horsemen available at Military Theory but they have different functions. One excels on flat terrain (Iron Chariot) and another just jack of all trades (Horsemen). Not even sure if this is viable or not.