3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 87

[pineappledan]

Text is wrong. We dropped ZOC a few versions ago. It will be fixed in the next version; thanks for catching that.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Ye olde favourite Suffet seems to still have some issues. When I get a great admiral (and it spawns as a great admiral when I get enough points), it turns properly into a Suffet when brought back into a city... except it then loses the ability to embark. A bit of a problem until airports are a thing.

The "shape-changing" also makes moving the unit around really clunky in general. Not a fan still, heh.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Ye olde favourite Suffet seems to still have some issues. When I get a great admiral (and it spawns as a great admiral when I get enough points), it turns properly into a Suffet when brought back into a city... except it then loses the ability to embark. A bit of a problem until airports are a thing.

The "shape-changing" also makes moving the unit around really clunky in general. Not a fan still, heh.

Brought this up before, but yeah, the Suffet is messed up, and I don't think there's too much Dan can do about it. I think it should just be reworked or scrapped in favour of another UU.

 

[ProCatGamer]

Brought this up before, but yeah, the Suffet is messed up, and I don't think there's too much Dan can do about it. I think it should just be reworked or scrapped in favour of another UU.

Maybe the Suffet could be reworked to just a unique great admiral as I don't think there is one right now but there are other great generals?

But if Carthage is going to have another unique unit entirely what should they have? A unique unit around mercenaries? (as they relied on them for external conflicts)

 

[FoxOfWar]

Unique Great Admiral would actually be potentially beefy. Not sure what I would add besides ignoring zone of control, though...

Unique mercenary-type unit would go pretty darn well with their ability to generate gold and Tophet gaining extra xp on bought units. Unit type could be almost any pre-medieval, probably.

 

[pineappledan]

A Numidian Skirmisher replacement would be the obvious choice. The Numidian were a Berber allied kingdom and frequently employed as mercenaries by the Carthaginians. They were renowned horsemen, reliably defeating the Roman cavalry during the 2nd Punic war, but the Romans are rather famous for having embarrassingly bad cavalry and scouts, relying entirely on the strength of their infantry and siege warfare.

I am loathe to make a big change like that right now, because the suffet stretches the Carthaginian kit outside ancient/classical. They sorely need something to play with after turn 100

 

[Legen]

Unique Great Admiral would actually be potentially beefy. Not sure what I would add besides ignoring zone of control, though...

I approve a unique admiral change, since I think the naval units tend to benefit more from the Suffet's anti-ZoC effect than land units; naval units have more movement points in general, have more ways to gain movement points much earlier and they don't have to deal with rough terrain. Carthage is also a maritime civ that tends to rely a lot on cargo ships for its economy, so a unit that helps keeping their naval trade routes safer throughout the eras would be very helpful for them.

Maybe the great admiral could provide something like immunity vs boarded status? If you think the anti-ZoC effect is not enough. And if the admiral remains unable to embark, at least he could have extra movement points.

 

[pineappledan]

I’d have to loot another mod for art assets in order to do that and I don’t really want to. The issue only occurs if a GAdmiral is born? Why don’t I just kill the GAdmiral on birth and give a suffet?

 

[FoxOfWar]

I'm not a big fan of the Suffet, even as it works properly, but I've stated that before; it alternates between being clunky and being... almost like it's not even there. I feel it's a case of 'looks useful on paper, is meh in practice'. But maybe that's just me. What do others think?

What's wrong with a civ being frontloaded in the ancient/classical though? Carthage wants to be super-expansive for as long as there's land to be grabbed anyway, and is a definite example of a civ that's "make it or suffer" in the early game. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion.

That said, I do understand not wanting to change at this point because it is a fair amount of work. I'll respect your decision on this matter, even if I disagree on the unit itself.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I’d have to loot another mod for art assets in order to do that and I don’t really want to. The issue only occurs if a GAdmiral is born? Why don’t I just kill the GAdmiral on birth and give a suffet?

If I can recall, I also saw issues with transitioning through 1 tile island cities, and embarking/disembarking in general. I'd have to agree with the clunky feel that Fox alluded to. Thematically it's great, but in practice it doesn't execute well, and indeed feels kind of 'meh'.

The skirmishers make sense and would work, but I don't think they'd reflect the flavour of Dido as well as something like a Suffet rework or unique Admiral.

Excluding the impact of the Punic wars, Carthage was essentially a trader/merchant empire, right? Their main position of power came through their advantageous wealth, accumulated through trade domination across the coasts of North Africa and the Mediterranean, right? Here's a crazy idea, but why not give them a unique cargo ship? The tales of Phoenician cargo ships has their quality, durability, and sheer size coming second to none; they would apparently dwarf any vessel that would appear on the seas for several hundred years. It would be pretty unique and thematic, also playing off of the Great Cothon.

I assume it'd be possible to implement a unique caravan or cargo ship for a civ? Aside from the art asset problem (default art would be fine honestly), is there anything preventing this?

 

[pineappledan]

If I can recall, I also saw issues with transitioning through 1 tile island cities, and embarking/disembarking in general. I'd have to agree with the clunky feel that Fox alluded to. Thematically it's great, but in practice it doesn't execute well, and indeed feels kind of 'meh'.

These are unavoidable edge cases. Normally, your GAdmiral wouldn't be able to get up on land at all. I understand that getting a Suffet up on land can be difficult, but there really isn't any way around that. GAdmirals simply can't path onto land tiles that aren't cities/forts/citadels. It's a very unique unit with very unique mechanics, and I really don't want to have to replace it with something that locks Carthage even more heavilly into early snowball, especially for something as drab as a slightly stronger skirmisher.

Excluding the impact of the Punic wars, Carthage was essentially a trader/merchant empire, right? Their main position of power came through their advantageous wealth, accumulated through trade domination across the coasts of North Africa and the Mediterranean, right? Here's a crazy idea, but why not give them a unique cargo ship? The tales of Phoenician cargo ships has their quality, durability, and sheer size coming second to none; they would apparently dwarf any vessel that would appear on the seas for several hundred years. It would be pretty neat and definitely thematic/unique. It would also play off of Great Cothon.

I assume it'd be possible to implement a unique caravan or cargo ship for a civ? Aside from the art asset problem (default art would be fine honestly), is there anything preventing this?

mainly the fact that it’s impossible to make a unique caravan/trade ship. I wouldn't do that anyways because a trade ship is a civilian unit, not a military unit, and we are looking for a military unit replacement.

I'm not abandoning the Suffet idea at this point. I like the idea of granting plague immunity to Suffet GAdmirals though. I'll look into adding that in a new version.

 

[pineappledan]

ya'll better get excited for this next update. Been busting my ass trying to get this Suffet change working, and @Asterix Rage has been working for months on unique graphics for all the 4UC promotions

v46: 
- compatibility:
    - Spices ==> changed to Cinnamon
    - UnitCombat ==> removed UnitCombat info for civilian units. This info has been added to base VP
    - Unique Promotions ==> courtesy of Asterix Rage, all promotions have unique graphics
- tweaked/modified:
    - Suffet    ==> Beginning next to a Suffet provides plague immunity in addition to ZOC
                ==> Shoftim give ZOC and Plague Immunity while embarked
                ==> Unique look and icon for embarked Shoftim
                ==> Shoftim can Embark immediately
    - Licorne ==> Added combat bonus vs Gunpowder units
    - Unique Japanese Guilds ==> Halved the instant yields from GWAM births 
    - various text and file name tweaks

Spoiler Suffet Embarked :

 

[Rosaria's Sandwiches]

You bet I'm excited to play this; any ETA?

 

[pineappledan]

I’m going to wait for the next hotfix, update, etc. There’s updates on the base VP which I am waiting on, and finishing touches on the Unique promotions.

So ETA is maybe 1-2 weeks, depends on G and Asterix

 

[FoxOfWar]

Ooh that looks good. I am certainly curious.

 

[Hinin]

ya'll better get excited for this next update. Been busting my ass trying to get this Suffet change working, and @Asterix Rage has been working for months on unique graphics for all the 4UC promotions

Even though I was a defendor of the concept for the Suffet (as you know, originating from the Hannibal mod from JFD) as a nice flexible combat tool, the problems linked to the complexity of its code had made it a 'bittersweet' UU to me. If these problems are resolved (impossibility to disembark outside of a city, possible infinite repair by using the disembark/embark effect on the number of repair actions and others pointed out by several people) and the unit is given more utility and uniqueness, I'm all for it. Thank you for your hard work once again.

Also, I'm very happy and grateful to have had @Asterix Rage participate to the project. Whatever the result (I'm sure it will be great), thank you very much.

PS : Also @adan_eslavo, I'm sorry for not having answered your proposition to have me help you for the ACNfVP modmod : I was quite busy on several levels. If you consider I can still be of some use, don't hesitate to tell me.

 

[Asterix Rage]

Whatever the result

 

[Guynemer]

 

[Legen]

If these problems are resolved (impossibility to disembark outside of a city

A random idea, but what if the Suffet boosted both land and naval units with the +15% aura as an admiral? That would partially cover the inability to embark in foreign lands.

 

[Zakuzelo]

It seems really weird for Egypt's Khopesh to be so good at finishing off units when their chariots get a bonus on kills.
Also, Songhai with this mod is wonderful. The flow of their game is a thing of terrible beauty. Strong and effective and synergistic and so, so, SO much fun. Well done.