3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[adan_eslavo]

@Enrico Swagolo Dummy. It's BUILDINGCLASS_ARMORY so it benefits of all its benefits.

@pineappledan What's with Barbican's maintenance cost?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Why does Barbican still come at Steel if it's a Castle? It pointlessly delays the building - having it at Chivalry as a Castle should be would make it so Poland can delay Steel if it doesn't feel like fielding footmen which would be pretty cool.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Maybe you're right. I will set it to chivalry.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

So I copypasted the stuff from github to the sql/lua files of Barbie and Pancerni, started a Casimir game, and I cannot build a single building. No shrine, no monument. Something's off with the code or my version.

 

[adan_eslavo]

!Black Tug, Pancerny, Barbican and Homestead reworked in Beta branch ready to tests (without texts, second update with some fixes).

I did brief testing:

• Homestead seems to work perfectly. I claimed all mentioned tiles in one turn. Awesome!
• Barbican works. Armory is blocked. Arena boosts Dummy Armory building. Balance testing should be done. I hvo no time for that. If someone can, I can wait for conclusions.
• Pancerny works.
• Black Tug works.

 

[adan_eslavo]

@Enrico Swagolo Sorry. Do it with second update I did within seconds. I screwed lua file for barbican. I fixed few other issues too. Look at changelog on Github to see. I rushed it too early. Coding stuff...

 

[pineappledan]

Does Barbican benefit from Arena's +2 Production? Or does the invisible dummy get +2 Production?

If the Barbican is set to be BUILDINGCLASS_CASTLE, then the dummy building will necessarily be BUILDINGCLASS_ARMORY, which means that Polish cities will still get the +2, but it will be invisible.

I think this is the lesser of 2 evils, since there are more policies, wonders and effects which augment Castles.

Why does Barbican still come at Steel if it's a Castle?

Maybe you're right. I will set it to chivalry.

I strongly urge you to consider leaving it at TECH_STEEL

• Because it's not a castle and it's not an armory. It's a castmory. So we can put it with whichever of the two techs we want to.
• In light of that, I would prefer to put it on Steel, so that Ducal Stable and Barbican don't unlock on the same tech
• It also takes the prerequisite building from castle, so taking the prerequisite tech from armory seems appropriate

What's with Barbican's maintenance cost?

I don't know. Isn't it just the same as Armory right now (2)? No reason to change that, right? Secret extra benefit is Poland saves on gold maintenance a bit

+10% supply cap from Population (up from +5% from Castle) - Castle already has 10 so I added 5 to 15 in total.

I think 10% in that case sounds adequate. I didn't realize they had buffed castles. 15% is quite high, it's on the same level as the Arsenal. They are already getting a small +1 bonus to the flat supply cap, so no need to overdo it.

There's some new column named "DisplayPosition" in sql table Buildings. Do you know what it does? We will need probably to add it to all new buildings.

I now think about one thing: we give dummy buildings on construction f.e. in Hippodrome and now in Barbican, maybe some else. What if player destroy the building? Should we consider the option and destroy dummy too?

There is already a lua to remove the dummy building from Hippodrome in all cities.

In the case of the Polish dummy building, I think it would be appropriate to set the conquestProb to the standard 66, don't you?

• If a civ that isn't Rome captures the city, that building would be converted into a standard armory
• If a civ that IS Rome captures the city, then it would block them from also building a standard armory in the city too.

the alternative is Rome gets 45XP from armory/barbican in his cities, and that could be too powerful

I decided to block default Armory by lua. Crious if it works.

I guess we will find out soon enough. You didn't use a standard BuildingClassOverride via SQL?

What is your idea for the Monitor ?

I was thinking of removing Cover I and replacing it with a promotion called "Hardened" which uses ChangeDamageValue = -3 to reduce all incoming damage by 3. So the Monitor would be very resilient to large numbers of units using a "death by a thousand cuts" approach.

It's not the first time I talk about it, but I still think the global concept behind the Madrasah (getting science when buying units with faith) is a flawed one, for its potential relies on a very specific kind of playstyle (if you don't follow that playstyle, the utility of the building is very low, but if you follow that playstyle, the science are simply so high that it makes an already science-heavy civ nearly unbeatable, as I experienced once when Arabia used a sort of "Blues Brothers - coincidental AI version" tactic in one of my game, which ended badly for everyone else...). I proposed a unique "Classical era" version of the Grand Temple as a UC4 instead, but I understand your concern on that matter, so I think we should find something else instead (even more since Korea already has a unique University replacement with a minor faith flavor). Do you have ideas ?

I'm not exactly sure what the problem is regarding this, because every civ spends Faith to buy things of one kind or another. Obviously, you can get a bit more use from it with a belief like the -30% faith cost of missionaries, combined with the fealty opener. Would reducing the amount of the faith purchase bonus to 15/75 be enough?

Korea gets +2 on Seowons, but I struggle to really call it a religious building because of how late it is. The most recent patch also gave it +1 on GWs in the city and it unlocks earlier, so it's significantly stronger than it was, and this new bonus puts even less emphasis on the faith bonus

The Examination Hall GP generation bonus seems too low to be relevant, so I would suppress it and instead make so that the "citizen birth" bonus of the building is increased during WLTKD (it synergizes more with the UA, since WLTKD increases growth).

I think the GPP thing is pretty forgettable, but it's good for flavor, so I see no reason to change it unless it's a balance concern.

I think the Andelsbevægelse is a bit bland. I'm not really sure what to do about it, but I just wanted to know if you had the same opinion as me on the matter.

I haven't been able to play a game with Denmark that late, but I really like how many yields this building puts out onto the tiles. I'm also a big fan of how it doesn't use any lua.

As you said yourself, pineappledan, the Qadi is simply a bad building. What it brings is simply too little to justify the use of a UC slot (it doesn't mean that Songhai isn't a powerful civilization, simply that we should discuss about the building once again).

I made a list of 3 possible UBs for the Songhai, and people chose the Qadi. It wasn't my top pick, but others liked it, so unless someone has a very specific idea for how they would fix it, I don't have much of an opinion. I merely abided by the preferences of others.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

In the case of the Polish dummy building, I think it would be appropriate to set the conquestProb to the standard 66, don't you?

• If a civ that isn't Rome captures the city, that building would be converted into a standard armory
• If a civ that IS Rome captures the city, then it would block them from also building a standard armory in the city too.

Aren't defense (wall>etc) and XP (barracks>etc) lines the ones that have 0% chance of being kept, even if you're Rome? That's probably for the best.

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan:

• for now it is on Chivalry. IT can be change at any time.
• Armory is blocked, lua worked. If I did it by ClassOverride it would show up in loading screen and we wanted to avoid that.

 

[pineappledan]

Not sure how it works, actually. If they are neverCapture, even as Rome, then that makes things a whole lot simpler.

for now it is on Chivalry. IT can be change at any time.

Yeah, I really don't like the idea of both of Poland's UBs being unlocked at the exact same tech. I think that definitely needs to change

I just checked the American lua code. We need to add a +20*GetCurrentEra() bonus per tile aquired

 

[adan_eslavo]

Ok, you have 2 buildings to test their balance. I leave you with that for now. I tested it out briefly and they should work.

 

[Phalanx BR]

@adan_eslavo I think you might have made a mistake on the 36.1 beta commit. I put a comment there, can you check it out?

 

[pineappledan]

I have addressed @Phalanx BR's pancerny issue
I have also added the bit for the Ranch lua to give it the 20 production per tile. I am not confident in my lua coding abilities, so if someone could please check my work on that.
I have added the hardened promotion to the Monitor and disabled the lua for now
I have also fixed the relevant text.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Managed to get my game in at least "crashes less" kind of state, did an up-to-Industrial Shoshone play. (Then it did crash, but that was definitely partially my own fault for going ultra-expansive 70-cities-on-standard-map. Had a whole continent-and-half between just me and Brazil, and I couldn't resist taking Brazil out...)

Both added UC's seem good, in a "not flashy but definitely works" kind of way. Yellow Brow can defend a spot from a lot of attacks, and is definitely the kind of unique I want to make lot of due to not needing resources and Shoshone usually having a lot of turf to defend. While Buffalo Pound is definitely a subtle kind of 'oops, early food in every city' advantage, which can roll really well - certainly did in my game.

For a change, nothing to really complain about in either direction. Yay!

 

[adan_eslavo]

@Phalanx BR Play 36.1.1 + updates from @pineappledan. Should be good now. I was not aware of the issue with barb kills and thought it was mistake with 2x 150 value.

Hardened seems to be good as well as code for homestead. But look doesnt mean work. I will try to check after work.

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan I have other question, what civs are really compatible with MUCfVP but Im interested in historical nation not fictional. Which would you recomend as balanced and fully working? Also I want newnations not existing ones with new leader.

 

[pineappledan]

The current completed historical civs which have been made compatible with 4UC:
- the Papal States
- The Garamantes
- Sumer
- Israel

Civs which are alternative leaders, but aren’t really new nations:
- Prussia (uses hanse as 4th UC)
- Imperial Japan (Uses Yamato as primary UU, and has Dojo, same as Japan)
- Great Britain (Uses White Tower as 4UC, takes Steam Mill and SotL from Elizabeth and replaces them with 2 new UCs for base Elizabeth)

Civs which are in development
I am working on The Timurids (I need help with the lua, if you're free)
Enginseer is working on Canada
Hokath is working on converting a bunch of Lastsword’s civs right now

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I'm playing with beta Poland and Civilopedia of Barbican still says it's an Armoury, which it isn't. About my impressions, I have more supply than I need (which is the case with any +1 supply UB tbh), and the UB seems relatively cool now. It's a nice bundle of joy if you take Fealty, with a little bit of everything. If Fealty is taken into account, it costs around 33% less to get a Barbie than a regular Armoury + Castle (costs 133% of one, halved = 66.(6), and 2x100%/2 = 100%), and it beats them. It's definitely gotten better and, most of all, it isn't boring because it is in an unique situation. It was a cool idea that ended up working, I'd say. By the way, is Armoury meant to be shown in the tech tree if you can't build it?

Concerning Pancerni, I used them to pound a 1-era behind Gustavus that tried Progress one city challenge for like 100 turns before he changed his mind. As most of Sweden was a snaky, weird, thin, hill-filled space, the defense seemingly made my Pancerni survive and allowed me to boldly place them while farming some nice Faith, so it was very useful. Old Grunwald wouldn't have helped at all, there just isn't many forests and marshes, only hills. I like the new Pancerni.

 

[pineappledan]

I think that disabling the armory using SQL will fix this problem. Poland will use fewer computing resources and the armory will not show up in the tech tree that way.

Fixed the text

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan Thank you fir clarifying the mod list. Unfortunately I have really tight schedule, but maybe I will try. What thing do you have planned for Timurids lua?

Is it possible to disable building by sql for one civ? If you disable building classfor Armory will the dummy be accessible?

@Enrico Swagolo Good to hear that new ideas were good shot. Any other concernes, especially about ucs mentioned few posts earlier?