[Extension] 3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[amateurgamer88]

I may have overbuffed Babylon in an earlier version. Heh.

And yeah, the UNW definitely doubles down on the progress synergies. I really enjoy that aspect of their kit.

I feel the change required is the 25% Science you get when you invest in buildings. To put things into context, I play my games without Research Agreements enabled and, as a result, Porcelain Towers gives a 25% Science to the city. That in itself is quite strong already but here you can do so earlier and likely more often depending on how many cities you get. I don't mind seeing a smaller % like 5 or 10 as the rest of the UNW seems pretty good without being too broken. Of course, that's just my opinion so I think it's best we hear the opinions of other people.

 

[pineappledan]

15% was too low. The minute banks came online they were easily doubling the science output of etemenanki. We’ve now tried 25%, so let’s try 20%.

 

[Vastator]

I want to get the take of other people's opinion on the Babylonian UNW. For my current game on King difficulty, Babylon is ahead 8 techs ahead of me while only a single policy ahead. I can't imagine what they are like on higher difficulties. Does this mean that Babylon AI has a higher priority of investing in buildings? Or does the extra Science for their monuments just help them snowball faster? Overall, I like the idea but I wonder if the percentage is very high. For instance, we can have a Tradition Babylon that expands when there are lots of room. All those cities provide more buildings to invest in and that capital will be producing Science like it was nothing.

I also feel like Babylon can be very well covered if you go Progress. Expertise give you Culture and Food upon building completion while the UNW gives you Science and Food upon investing in buildings. The Food gives you Gold once you complete Progress. The Gold and improved infrastructure then helps provide you with lots of Production. Is Babylon supposed to have no weak spot when going for Progress or am I missing something?

I have to report the same thing. When i i discovered Bab on another continent they were 10 tech ahead of me (egypt progress/fealty emperor), there was also Korea but it was not that far ahead in science. I was able to steal from bab some tech and cath up a bit, and it was seriously slowed down during late game thanks to tourism: bab had two revolutions, one caused by Korean idelogy pressure, one caused by mine.

 

[amateurgamer88]

15% was too low. The minute banks came online they were easily doubling the science output of etemenanki. We’ve now tried 25%, so let’s try 20%.

Are you able to elaborate on this more? From what I understand, Banks gives you the % Science only in the city it's built in. Not only do you need to unlock Banking (an era and a half after you get access to the UNW) but you also have to build it (though investing speeds it significantly). Usually, the capital produces a lot of Science than all the other cities early game. When you get the UNW, it gives you such a powerful lead that, by the time Banks are available, you'd be definitely the tech leader or competing for that spot. Let's not forget that the UNW gives +1 Science to Monuments which's isn't something to scoff at early game.

When I look at the Babylonian kit, it's heavily geared for the early game. By Medieval Era, they have unlocked their full potential and should snowball a fair bit. However, I find it surprising that, when I play on King, they are able to have 8 techs lead in Medieval Era. @Vastator saw a 10 tech lead on Emperor. For even higher difficulties, how much of a lead will they get? I don't think I can handle that high of a level so maybe someone much better can check this.

Overall, I can see the yields from the UNW diminish later in the game but the human/AI should be able to use their tech lead and strong infrastructure to keep their momentum. I don't think Babylon needs more help with their Science. That's just my two cents.

 

[Moi Magnus]

No.
v41 relies on the 01-29 .dll to work

The opening post says "12-18 required", shouldn't this be changed?

 

[pineappledan]

Banks convert 15% investment cost into .
For the lowest investment cost, Monument, that is 0.15*80 = 12
In order to match that at the old 15% level, your capital had to produce 80 per turn.
However, most things you are buying in renaissance are at least 300, or 45 if the city has a bank. To match that, ET has to make Banks also proc on units, while Etemenanki only procs on building purchases.

Etemenanki couldn't hack it. You needed to churn out incredible amounts of science in order to compete with banks. Banks' gold conversion mechanic converted into at a better rate as soon as you started investing in anything that wasn't an ancient/classical building. So I boosted it from 15% of yields to 25%, because I didn't like a UNW getting outshone by a base building. Evidently 25% is too much though, so I am going to lower it to 20%

 

[adan_eslavo]

Update needed?

 

[pineappledan]

Later tonight. I need to hotfix some text still

 

[adan_eslavo]

Ok. I can see huge changes... Just wow!

 

[amateurgamer88]

Banks convert 15% investment cost into .
For the lowest investment cost, Monument, that is 0.15*80 = 12
In order to match that at the old 15% level, your capital had to produce 80 per turn.
However, most things you are buying in renaissance are at least 300, or 45 if the city has a bank. To match that, ET has to make Banks also proc on units, while Etemenanki only procs on building purchases.

Etemenanki couldn't hack it. You needed to churn out incredible amounts of science in order to compete with banks. Banks' gold conversion mechanic converted into at a better rate as soon as you started investing in anything that wasn't an ancient/classical building. So I boosted it from 15% of yields to 25%, because I didn't like a UNW getting outshone by a base building. Evidently 25% is too much though, so I am going to lower it to 20%

I'll try out a game with Babylon after the 20% change then. I think it's best I see it in action and see whether or not further changes are needed. I understand that it sucks if the UNW is getting outshone but maybe a different aspect of it can be improved. The yields are only one aspect of the UNW since I feel that the food is also quite powerful with how big your capital can get. When do you think this change can be made? I'm assuming it's not possible tonight?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Banks convert 15% investment cost into .
For the lowest investment cost, Monument, that is 0.15*80 = 12
In order to match that at the old 15% level, your capital had to produce 80 per turn.
However, most things you are buying in renaissance are at least 300, or 45 if the city has a bank. To match that, ET has to make Banks also proc on units, while Etemenanki only procs on building purchases.

Etemenanki couldn't hack it. You needed to churn out incredible amounts of science in order to compete with banks. Banks' gold conversion mechanic converted into at a better rate as soon as you started investing in anything that wasn't an ancient/classical building. So I boosted it from 15% of yields to 25%, because I didn't like a UNW getting outshone by a base building. Evidently 25% is too much though, so I am going to lower it to 20%

Except E-temenaki also gives you equivalent food and it doesn't care for the cost of the thing you're getting up - Granary? Barracks? Bank? Get the full thing up, it doesn't discriminate. Sure, ancient/classical era buildings will be uncommon to rush in renaissance, but if you conquer something or get a vital pioneer city up, it'll happen. All of that is Science and Food in the capital. The more cities and the more Gold to raise stuff with, the better. Wide Babylon is obviously superior here.

Babylon Authority > Fealty > Industry (or Imperialism, but only with the right monopolies) works really great in my opinion, the bursts of Science and Food never stop as whatever you take, contributes. It also makes the best use of Mr S. Kibitum and the Baby Archer. Progress can work just as well as Authority, though. Better if you take into account the wonder, I suppose, but the early tributes combined with the Wall can be a real snowball propeller. Come medieval or later one also can take a bad occupied city, annex but not get Courthouse, rush the cheapest buildings and then raze, resettling his own, getting instant Border Growth Tribute yields and also rushing the early buildings first. Then repeat. Sure, Progress can conquer too, but you'll be missing out on some nice free bursts.

Welcome back. During your absence, our favorite Canadian entomologist decided to repaint all the house clean (by that I mean hunt down computer slowing codes and code inconsistencies mercilessly). As a result, it looks indeed quite good : lots of pertinent changes that have received praises from some people already.

Entomologist? I thought Pineappledan is a historian with how he knows so many things about history.
Anyway, the things he did on 4UC, and Gazebo did on VP, removed my crashes and slowdowns, so something really did go right there. I haven't had a single comfortable time after turn 300 before, let alone turn 390 like my France game, and now it has come and I live in comfort.

 

[pineappledan]

Aight, I’ll change it back to 15% then. It’s possible I got my ass handed to me when I tried babylon because I went tradition. I’ll have to try progress next time.

 

[Guynemer]

Currently playing Brazil, had a bit of an oddity.

I could not upgrade my fusiliers directly to pracinha. I had to upgrade them to infantry, and then could upgrade the infantry to pracinha.


EDIT: Also, just wanted to mention, I have also noticed huge performance improvements in recent days. Kudos to you (and G & his team). This modmod runs like a dream.

 

[pineappledan]

Pracinha are an infantry replacement, so they upgrade from WWI Riflemen, not Fusiliers.

hotfix is live
etemananki nerf (15%)
Pogost lua fix
Madrasa fix

 

[Guynemer]

oooops. mea culpa, got it all confused in my brainmeat.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Pracinha are an infantry replacement, so they upgrade from WWI Riflemen, not Fusiliers.

hotfix is live
etemananki nerf (15%)
Pogost lua fix
Madrasa fix

You didn't need to bring E-temenaki back exactly to where it was. While it is definitely going to be at least okay anyway as it does present good yields for the time on buildings that are mandatory anyway as well as a scaling food/science investment bonus, there's other aspects you could buff to compensate without breaking it. You could have the +15 per birth in the capital which it gained over the National Monument be 20, or 10 10, or have the yields from policy discovery which NM also has in exactly the same form be buffed. You might've had a point it was too weak before - I didn't play Babylon pre-buff enough to be able to say too much about this building. A slight buff in other way than the from investment wouldn't hurt anyone I think.
Maybe instead of just 50 every time you get a policy, 50-75, scaling? Or some other yield type than Gold to avoid overt synergy, but I doubt it'd be an issue.

 

[Guynemer]

Pracinha are an infantry replacement, so they upgrade from WWI Riflemen, not Fusiliers.

Figured out the source of my confusion.

While having a bunch of fusiliers, I discovered radio (the tech that unlocks pracinha) before I discovered replaceable parts (which unlocks riflemen). So, I could build pracinha, but I could not upgrade my current melee units to the new hotness because I had fully skipped an intervening step.

Once I discovered replaceable parts, I could then upgrade my fusiliers to riflemen, and then again to pracinha.

 

[pineappledan]

Please tell us how pracinha feels. I’m worried they come too soon/are too powerful for their era. Interested to hear your assessment.

 

[Guynemer]

Unfortunately, didn't really get to use them. By the time they came online, I was already building the end-game cultural victory wonder that I can never remember the name of, and the wars declared on me were strictly naval affairs on account of the map.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Small quirk: Assyria's Iron Chariot tooltip/civilopedia says 12 CS, but when I make the unit it has 13 CS (before any horse or iron buffs). Which one was intended again?