[Extension] 3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[pineappledan]

I would sooner have no coca at all than have it on the map.
Alternative bonuses I can think of for the qullqa:

• Could give some per city bonus for each excess (ie. 2+ copies) luxury on empire
• Could give some bonus on city connection (though Rome already does something similar)

I will implement the capital tile change in a future version for now. If you have a historically suitable, unique, balanced bonus to give to the qullqa that people will prefer to the current implementation of the Coca then make an argument for it.

I'm pointing out that the qullqa, being a granary with bonus production, comes pretty early in an incan build order, the monopoly is gained so quick that it might as well be part of the UA.

This is true of every civ with an ancient era building. Ethiopia's +25% on golden ages, Mongolia's -25% tile cost, etc.

 

[randomnub]

I would sooner have no coca at all than have it on the map.

Good, I'm not well versed in the incan historical context, just a quick wiki search didn't show any relation with such resource.

Alternative bonuses I can think of for the qullqa:
Could give some per city bonus for each excess (ie. 2+ copies) luxury on empire

So as of current implementation, without the coca the qullqa is a granary with 2 bonus production and faster unit healing. Still a strong building coming up that early. I thematically like the bonus for excess resources. The AI is not very good at hoarding excess resources tho (poor William), it mostly triggers when they end at war with their trade partners. That being said, qullqa were actively used to supply armies on the move (that's where the +5 healing comes from I guess) but could work well as storages during siege or prolonged war periods, hence a bonus to city defense, or city health regeneration, per each excess resource could do, conveniently triggering when such trade partners turns around you.

Boring but thematic alternative, bonus food/prod to internal trade routes.

This is true of every civ with an ancient era building. Ethiopia's +25% on golden ages, Mongolia's -25% tile cost, etc.

Not really, the coca monopoly unlocks a global buff to incan workers, while any other ancient building still has to be built in newer cities and provides local buffs. OT: A similar argument could be made for Carthage Tophet because I would always buy units in the capital/older cities in the few turns it takes for newer cities to build it, its effects are an extention of the UA (and if you ask me, quite OP, but synergic and fun) - re: small tophet nerf, could lose the 1 culture and gain 1 or 2 gold.

 

[pineappledan]

A corner case of unrazable Incan cities does not merit an overhaul quite yet, in my opinion. I can just fix that issue without tearing out hours of work, root and branch, and I don't see other ideas as much of an improvement.

 

[KaoticKanine]

Good, I'm not well versed in the incan historical context, just a quick wiki search didn't show any relation with such resource.

Coca was actually a valued commodity to the Incans, being important in both daily life, military, and religion. Coca is actually a key reason for why Mit'a (mandatory public service) worked; laborers and soldiers who served under Mit'a would chew coca leaves to alleviate hunger and thirst, and by extension made such service at least tolerable. But of course, don't just take my word for it.

Granted, Coca was hardly the only thing Qullqa was used for, with the building being a storage unit for any food and commodities, so removing Coca from the UB isn't that big a deal. As to what to replace that with... Well, of pineappledan's alternative ideas, I'm leaning towards a City Connection bonus since Qullqas were found along roads, and roads are some of the Inca's defining stuff (heck, their UA is named "Great Andean Road"). Perhaps that bonus could involve Food, since the building was essentially vital to the Incans to keep well-fed at high altitudes. But then, I guess the civ gets food aplenty from Mountains (via their UA) and especially Terrace Farms, so I'll try to come up with something else. In the meantime, another idea I got for the Qullqa is maybe migrating that +15% Improvement speed from Coca to the UB as a nod to Mit'a?

EDIT- I had just looked up Rome's UCs at the beginning of this thread's page and I don't see any sort of bonus towards City Connections for that civ. Their cities get a Production boost to buildings already constructed in the capital, but connections are not a requirement.

EDIT 2- Just remembered the Colosseum Although, all that does is increase the GPM of City Connections by 2%. I think the Qullqa could instead boost Production with City Connections or something.

 

[JohnnyNT]

@pineappledan First of all thanks for that great addition to VP! I'm playing as Aztecs now and encountered 2 minor issues:
* With their unique Grand Temple, the description says that it gets an upgrade every time the enter a golden age, but I noticed in my game that it only got upgraded when I entered GA due to Aztec ability (after war) and NOT when I entered GA naturally, intended?
* There is some UI problem with the Celt Scythed Chariot and its upgrades, when I want to attack it and hover mouse over the unit, the damage window doesn't appear. When I hover over different unit and then move to scythed chariot, the window appears but without numbers, just coloured bar showing how much health each unit will lose.

 

[LHKin]

I'm not sure how much you care about historical authenticity and fair enough if you don't - it's civ after all - but as an enthusiast for all things Celtic Iron Age, I can't help but point out that the Celts didn't use scythed chariots.

In case you do care, Celtic chariots were actually more like a hyper-mobile delivery system for elite warriors that made a lot of noise and frightened the enemy. A high status warrior would perch on the back of the chariot, maybe chucking a few javelins, while his trusty chariot driver would guide the two horses at high speeds to the best spot for a fight. For a Celtic warrior, that would probably mean the best place to show off and be visible to the rest of the tribe. Once there, the warrior would hop off and hopefully chop a few heads off, while the driver would careen away to wait at a safe distance like a dedicated taxi service. At the right moment, he'd come back and pick up his bossman and relocate him somewhere else.

If you wanted to design a unit around that historical type, here are a few ideas:

• Ignore ZoC: Caesar noted the ridiculous skills of the charioteers and how much mobility this gave them to dash in and out of the fighting at will.
• Ignore Bonus vs. Mounted: these guys would essentially fight as infantry like I said, they were essentially like hyper-mobile scary infantry.
• Cause Fear: Caesar's legions, hardly green troops, were severely rattled by the presence of chariots on the battlefield and he recorded the effect on their morale of all these noisy chariots whizzing around causing chaos.
• Attacking bonus & chance to withdraw: the Celtic warplan was rarely very complicated - essentially you would make loads of noise and get really hyped up for a massive charge that aimed to break the enemy right away - hence the bonus to attack. The beauty of the chariots was that it allowed high-status warriors to be hyper-aggressive and withdraw as soon as things looked dicey. They could have a relatively low CS to reflect their smaller numbers, with the bonus to attack and fear being the source of their damage potential.

These chariots were definitely a melee force, so they'd probably be best as a replacement for horsemen. I think that they could have the potential to be a fun and flavourful unit. They would reward an aggressive Celtic-style approach to warfare, while having a vulnerability to ranged damage that would stop them being broken.

 

[R3P0]

@pineappledan thanks for the super awesome mod

I have found 1 major issue. When I have any type of Great character playing with Carthage they are upgrading to Suffets as soon as they hit any type of ocean tiles.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Playing as Ethiopia. I really like the Chewa; a very solid unit that I feel balances out nicely with "Maim" only triggering on attack. They were the difference against a nasty Swedish army, and having them online just before his Hakkapeliitta / Carolean was my only saving grace in slowing the advance. I'm interested to see how tanky they become after transitioning them into Mehal Sefari.

One specific problem I encountered is that automated workers will remove any Monolithic Churches constructed over stone, replacing them with basic quarries. This is happening despite me playing with the setting to not allow workers to remove tile improvements.

 

[pineappledan]

I'm not sure how much you care about historical authenticity and fair enough if you don't - it's civ after all - but as an enthusiast for all things Celtic Iron Age, I can't help but point out that the Celts didn't use scythed chariots.

from the civilopedia entry:

Scythed chariots are modified war chariots with long blades extending from the wheel axels. Though often dismissed as fanciful storytelling, the use of scythed chariots has been ascribed to Pictish, Irish and Iceni armies. The only report of a scythed chariot in Britain outside of Roman propaganda comes from the Irish Ulster Cycle, during the adventures of Chu Chulainn.

Although chariots had fallen out of use in continental Europe from the end of the 3rd century BC, Caesar found that they remained significant in British warfare. Caesar encountered both Celtic cavalry and chariots and described how these warriors would throw javelins from their vehicles before dismounting to fight on foot. Celtic soldiers could return to their chariots to quickly retreat or redeploy.

“They make war not only on horseback but also from two horse chariots and cars armed in the Gallic fashion – they call them Covinni - on which they use axles equipped with scythes.”  - Pomponius Mela

So you can see your points are already covered somewhat, and I have already copped to historical accuracy a bit. Still, the idea of scythed chariots and a damage on move mechanic is pretty irresistible, so we decided to keep it like this.

I have found 1 major issue. When I have any type of Great character playing with Carthage they are upgrading to Suffets as soon as they hit any type of ocean tiles.

Will test. Pretty busy on my end right now.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

I got to try the Mamluk for the first time as a gift from a City-state -The irony tho, Mamluk in Arabic literally translates to an owned slave- and i have to say that i really like it.
Despite the major force of my army being Winged Hussars (IMO the most fun to use unit in the game) i really liked how the Mamulk offered something a bit different which is a pseudo-ignore ZOC when you attack so it can always retreat even if the attack would have ended the turn and left it in danger.
Pretty amazing unit and definitely more flavourful than the Khopesh.

 

[Solic]

I have got something for you; the Ethiopian Monolihic church on hills does not get the buffs from religion founding/enhancing/reformation like he ones on stone does.

Spoiler :

View attachment 581721

Edit: The table"Belief_ImprovementYieldChanges There seems to be non existent in CoreTableAdditions.xml
Edit 2: New game, Stone Churches got he same issue now

I have the same issue on the latest version. Sorry, if this was already known. Love your work!

 

[Efialtis]

It happens sometimes that when i use an additional civ mod i lose the the 3rd/4th UCs of other civs
Separately all civ mods work fine.
Is there something i can do to fix this?

Thank you all for this awesome mod

 

[R3P0]

from the civilopedia entry:

Scythed chariots are modified war chariots with long blades extending from the wheel axels. Though often dismissed as fanciful storytelling, the use of scythed chariots has been ascribed to Pictish, Irish and Iceni armies. The only report of a scythed chariot in Britain outside of Roman propaganda comes from the Irish Ulster Cycle, during the adventures of Chu Chulainn.

Although chariots had fallen out of use in continental Europe from the end of the 3rd century BC, Caesar found that they remained significant in British warfare. Caesar encountered both Celtic cavalry and chariots and described how these warriors would throw javelins from their vehicles before dismounting to fight on foot. Celtic soldiers could return to their chariots to quickly retreat or redeploy.

“They make war not only on horseback but also from two horse chariots and cars armed in the Gallic fashion – they call them Covinni - on which they use axles equipped with scythes.”  - Pomponius Mela

So you can see your points are already covered somewhat, and I have already copped to historical accuracy a bit. Still, the idea of scythed chariots and a damage on move mechanic is pretty irresistible, so we decided to keep it like this.

Will test. Pretty busy on my end right now.

@pineappledan you are doing this for free man I appreciate the effort and response thank you again

 

[Laz0r]

A suggestion for Ethiopia would be to make the yield increases on the Monolithic Churches trigger every six policies unlocked instead of every policy tree completed to allow more freedom in policy choice without sacrificing yields. So 1 culture added on 6 policies unlocked, 1 faith on 12, 1 science on 16. Excellent mod btw, but I'm sure you're already aware given that you made it.

 

[pineappledan]

A suggestion for Ethiopia would be to make the yield increases on the Monolithic Churches trigger every six policies unlocked instead of every policy tree completed to allow more freedom in policy choice without sacrificing yields. So 1 culture added on 6 policies unlocked, 1 faith on 12, 1 science on 16. Excellent mod btw, but I'm sure you're already aware given that you made it.

Ethiopia gets free techs when it finishes a policy branch, so they both work off the same trigger. It would be an especially bad idea to split policy choices with Ethiopia, even without 4UC installed

 

[pineappledan]

v66 will be posted shortly, pending some more tests

v66: 
- tweaked/modified:
    - Mayan Atlatl and Impi promotion changes removed 
        - moved to separate Tweaks Mod
    - Monolithic Church can only be built on hills now (no stone)
    - with the exception of the capital, Incan Coca is now given via a capturable dummy building
        - No longer on the map so the cities can be razed
        - Cusco will replace any resource you settle on top of with a Coca.
    - Increased Chasqui and Koa CS to 11 and 13, respectively

I'm not sure if removing the Stone monolithic church actually solves anything, but my Mono Churches seem to be getting their religion yields just fine:

Spoiler :

Since when has me failing to reproduce a bug been the end of the conversation though?

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

I'm not sure if the monolithic church change is cause by a balance concern or purely a technical concern to address the yields not updating on hill churches.

 

[pineappledan]

Purely a technical concern, though there was also a bit of jankiness with the stone improvements being replaced with quarries by the AI (AI valued quarries over MCs), and they ignored the no2adjacent rule.

 

[Jiggly]

For the Japanese Yomato do you get the golden age points only for building them manually in the city or would you still get them from upgrading a dreadnought?

 

[pineappledan]

Have to build or purchase it. No yields for upgrading into a battleship