3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[adan_eslavo]

Just make good background and will be ok.

 

[Hinin]

For the Venitian UB, you could also check the pictures used by lincoln_lyf in its Super Power : Clash of Civilizations mod. Some of its pictures were neat.

For the Arabian UB2, I'm still thinking that the bonus the Madrasah brings is something a UW could do, and that a unique early Great Temple (the Kaaba) could lead to Arabia having more chances to actually use its own religion when using this kind of bonus (but hey, that's only my point of view).

 

[pineappledan]

Just finished looking through the Clash mod. I think I like the breakwater one the best, I'll stick to that.

I think the Madrasah has promise still, and while I think the Kaaba would be fine I can't help but think it would be too similar to Etemenanki.

 

[Hinin]

I think the Madrasah has promise still, and while I think the Kaaba would be fine I can't help but think it would be too similar to Etemenanki.

Here is what I said about the Kaaba some posts ago (with some minor modifications) :

Spoiler Kaaba :

Kaaba
- Available at Philosophy instead of Theology
- Can only be constructed in the Capital city (reference of the fact that Mecqua is the capital of Arabia because of the existence of the Kaaba).
- Requires a Shrine in the city to be built (instead of a Temple)

- +1 faith per citizen in the city (instead of +6 faith)
- - 25 % Religious division (same)
- When the Kaaba is finished, gain an important boost of faith (around 300 in epic speed, knowing that a GProphet needs 1200 faith at that speed) and triggers a Golden age
- +1 faith, +1 culture and +1 GAP to all Shrines (instead of all Temples) => Thanks to this, Arabia should get an important bonus to faith and culture at the end of the Classical era, which would be a reference to the surge of Islam in the region
- Whenever a Faith purchase is made in the empire, gain 20 % of its cost in science (effect of the Madrasah, modified as you suggested)

- Trade units can be bought with faith in the city. (making their replacement even more quick, and synergizing with the effect above)
- All trade units you control are twice as effective at spreading religion (with the good tenets, it makes the Arabs extremely potent at spreading their religion far away, and it's also a reference to how they spread Islam along the Silk Road and into Indonesia/Malaysia through trade).

- +2 for each major civilization whose main religion is yours

- Contains 2 GWW slots (+4 , +5 and +5 GAP when themed with GWW of the same civilization and era)
=> Pros : It helps Arabia be more relevant in the religion game (offering them the last faith boost they may need to obtain a GProphet), synergizes with the Bazaar (through TR bonus) and the Mosquee (through GA bonus) and still retains the quirk of the Madrasah.
Cons : We don't have the civ5 picture type for it (although pictures of it can easily be found), contrary to the Madrasah.

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan It was so easy to make that I lost almost 3 hours to do it It turns out that RequiredFaithPurchaseEnabled is restricted to land units and all have 1 value there. It allows enabling faith purchase of land units after choosing Zealotry Belief. If I set value to 0 it doesn't need that belief anymore. Unfortunately I don't know if it is possible to make same thing for naval or air units, but that is only thing I noticed during my work.

To sum up:

 

[pineappledan]

Lol, I said possible, not easy. Dummy policies are tricky stuff. Also, should that dummy building for the qizilbash be given to everyone? If other civs don’t have the building then the qizilbash’s promotion won’t work if they get it as a CS gift.

 

[adan_eslavo]

There was no need to add anything more beside "0" value in sql. No dummy crap

I decided to lower its faith cost by 50f to 350f. Small addition. Delay between Qizilbash Faith purchases - 1 turn.

 

[pineappledan]

huh... if it's such a simple settings change I have to wonder why it isn't more common...

 

[adan_eslavo]

Do you have in mind adding it to another unit?

I found that Hussar in base VP has 2 times Extra Sight (1) promotion. Do you have the same problem? It's the same thing like with Field Gun bug I repaired earlier.

 

[pineappledan]

Do you have in mind adding it to another unit?

Nope!

I found that Hussar in base VP has 2 times Extra Sight (1) promotion. Do you have the same problem? It's the same thing like with Field Gun bug I repaired earlier.

Haven't every played austria, so I couldn't say.

In other news, my carthage mod disappeared from my mods list last night after having not touched anything. Just like what was happening to my old Sweden mod. Bah.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Your civilizations are very hungry. :]

 

[Jarula]

Here is the sql for Latifundia unless ya'll already have one.

maybe its too strong... but I do think 1 C 1 f to nearby farms and 1 c 1 g to nearby plantations is something we should go with...

maybe though make it ONLY buildable ON luxuries or adjacent to luxories but buildable at Calendar

 

[pineappledan]

Venice v2.0 is done.

Spoiler :

UU1 - Great Galleas
Galleass replacement
25RCP/15CP (+3RCP and +3CP vs Galleass)
(note, this is 1 RCP/CP down from what the unit was in VP prior to this mod)

UU2 - Fusta
same tech as Galleass
125 prod (50 prod cheaper)
19RCP/9CP (-3RCP and -3 CP than Galleass)
4 moves (up from 3)
withdraws from melee combat
no maintenance

2 ships which are straightforward on their own, but give players the option of a fast, cheap low maintenance option and a hard hitting, pricey option

UB - Laguna (lagoon)
Harbor replacement
+2 Gold and +2 Culture
+1 Food from River tiles
+2 Food and +2 Prod to atolls
+3 Gold and +2 Food to Rialto district for every laguna on empire
+2 Science and +2 Production to Arsenale de Venezia for every laguna on empire
+2 Culture and +2 Tourism to Murano Glassworks for every laguna on empire
Note: the 3 buildings listed are mutually exclusive, can only have 1 of the 3 on empire

 

[Jarula]

So Venice has 2 UU and a harbor replacement?

 

[pineappledan]

Essentially 2 UU which replace the same 1 unit, yes
It's interesting because venice now has the following
1 UW, which gives access to a choice of 3
1UGP, which can build 1 UI
1UB
1 regular UU replacement
1 new unit class UU

So venice runs the gammut, which is kinda fun

Edit: @adan_eslavo I just realized something, I think we should set the Maya arena to NeverCapture=true. The Roman UB is a replacement for the same building, and Rome has a hidden UA where they get to keep any UBs in cities they conquer. two things make me unsure if letting them keep Mayan pitz courts is a good idea:

• There's a small chance of some sort of bad interaction between the UBs if the game tries to convert a conquered Arena to the Roman UB, but is also programmed to retain the unique Mayan UB. Worst case scenario is it could cause a game to crash.
• The Pitz court might actually make Mayan cities LESS attractive to Rome if they get a UB which blocks their own. To Rome, Maya's UB has less synergy than Rome's own UB, so Rome players may feel the need to sell and rebuild arenas in conquered cities

@Blue Ghost I'll try to get you an icon for the Hashemite before Sunday. Also, a reminder that the most exam hall is broken in the latest version.

 

[FoxOfWar]

On a hunch, I'd differentiate Fusta and Great Galleas even more; make Fusta still cheaper, and just barely above Pentekonter in power, and make Great Galleass actually Pretty Darn Great, but very expensive. There needs to be a magnitude of difference in 'oomph' when you look at Fusta and Great Galleas in combat, otherwise it's rather no-brainer to go for the evasive, no-maintenance ship every time.

Venice technically gets a lot of uniques here (depending how you count Great Merchant, when you compare to Oppidum), but if any civ gets such treatment it's Venice.

Overall... I'll have to get to testing again. Took a bit of a break from Civ this month.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I thought about this. For now I blocked Pitz' UAs (b'ak'tu bonus and k'atun ahaw) to be only available by Pacal. It would be strange if someone else could benefit from their calendar.

What about Colosseum's NeverCapture? Maya also can capture Roman UB.

Such an amount of UCs will break civ choose window like Russia did earlier. Balance also will be broken. I think we should leave Great Galleas to CSs and make Fusta the only UM. This leaves us 4 UCs (UW+3UB, UGP+UI, UM, UB) not counting 3 other from San Piazza. That's a lot. Getting new class UM and normal UM will be unfair for Assyria and Ottomans. They already did get UC plus UI but because they don't have any military in VP it's ok for recompensation. Oppidum got buff in Celtic UA and it is a bit stronger than Colonia.

 

[pineappledan]

On a hunch, I'd differentiate Fusta and Great Galleas even more; make Fusta still cheaper, and just barely above Pentekonter in power, and make Great Galleass actually Pretty Darn Great, but very expensive. There needs to be a magnitude of difference in 'oomph' when you look at Fusta and Great Galleas in combat, otherwise it's rather no-brainer to go for the evasive, no-maintenance ship every time.

In comparison to penteconter, the Fusta is currently sitting at +4RCS, +3CS, and costs 25 more prod. So it's currently about dead center between a pentekonter and a galleass. I think I could reduce the CP down by 1 more to RCP=18. I think that's probably the lower boundary though, because the Byzantine dromon is sitting at 17RCP right now, and it would be weird to have the ship dip lower than a UU that's available so much earlier and costs less.

I think the GGalleass going back up to the +4 CS/RCS it had before might be okay. I dropped it to +3/+3 from the galleass more for the symmetry than any real balance concerns, but I'm also worried that making the GGall significantly better than a normal gall might make the fusta useless

the Fusta is at 19RCS/9CS.
The GGall is at 25RCS/15CS.
Thats an increase of 32% RCS and 67% CS, so +/-6 CP is a significant swing at medieval. Won't know for sure until it's tested though.

EDIT: For now I'm on a wait and see stance. I played around with the two UCs, but never got into a proper war.
Another nice thing about replacing the normal Galleass with the GGalleas is it makes more of a visible difference in the sizes of the two ships. The Fusta is about 1/2 as big as the GGall unit model

I thought about this. Fir now I blocked Pitz' UAs (b'ak'tu bonus and k'atun ahaw) to he only available by Pacal. It would be strange if someone else could benefit from their calendar.

Sounds like even more reason to just make the building uncapturable, like walls and monuments. The only civ who this even affects is Rome, and they would be better off selling the Pitz and building their colosseums. The AI isn't going to understand that it should sell.

Such an amount of UCs will break civ choose window like Russia did earlier. That's one. Balance also will be broken. I think we should leave Great Galleas to CS, make Fusta the only UM, add Laguna as UI made by worker (like Kampong) and throw away UB. This leaves as 4 UC not counting 3 other from San Piazza.

With the Fusta, there's 6 icons on the screen, so the extra 1 fits in and doesn't interfere with the text. Russia had 7 icons.

I'm not sure if having a weaker, spammable UU would be a fitting replacement instead of a stronger UU. I think testing would be prudent before we decide if the idea of 'splitting' a UU is viable.

Oh god, dibs out having to make graphics and code for a new UI. Wouldn't keeping this as a UB be more unique though? Venice already has the Colonia UI, but has no UB.

Lastly, keep in mind that Venice is largely considered low-tier in VP, and the newest changes to trade routes nerfed them even harder. If we end up making some OP stuff for Venice that might not be such a bad thing

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan:

• So why not make those 2 remaining UCs extremely powerful? Also I thought that 2 UW for Venice wouldn't be such a stupid idea.
• What about making all UBs and UWs never capturable?

 

[pineappledan]

Balance also will be broken. I think we should leave Great Galleas to CSs and make Fusta the only UM.

OP stuff for Venice that might not be such a bad thing

So why not make those 2 remaining UCs extremely powerful?

....
I don't really understand why this would be unfair to Assyria or Ottomans.
Assyria's UU fills an entirely separate support role
Ottomans get an ultra-expensive supercannon, but still get to build regular cannons
Venice gets a cheap, spammable galleass, but still gets to build regular galleasses

2 UW for Venice wouldn't be such a stupid idea.

I assume you meant to say two UIs, because you proposed a UI.
I’m against multiple UIs because, unlike buildings there is limited physical space for a UI, and two UIs which don’t interfere with each other would completely dominate a civ’s landscape.

Your suggestion of another naval UI would make kampungs less unique, but it also wouldn't really reflect Venice, who artificially preserved and expanded their lagoon by dredging their canals.
If you wanted to make a lagoon UI, imo it should essentially convert flat unfeatured land into coastal tile. Like a reverse dyke

At any rate, outside of balance tweaks I'd like to consider my work on Venice complete. This is already the civ's second pass, and I don't have much interest in starting over with totally new UCs, especially ones which don't have graphics

What about making all UBs and UWs never capturable?

I’m pretty sure UWs aren’t capturable already.

I don’t like that idea because it seems unnecessary and it would undermine rome’s UA. In most cases if a city with a UB is captured it simply turns into the base building. Only Rome has the ability to retain uniques, and only Rome has an arena replacement. The only possible conflict with rome’s UA is the Mayan UA, so that’s all I think needs to be changed.