4:15 -AM- EST turn chats!?!?!?!?

[FortyJ]

Originally posted by Veera Anlai
Having these chats at such ungodly hours, I believe, is contrary to the spirit of the Civ Democracy Game. How can we be a democracy when a majority of our citizens will no longer have the opportunity to have themselves be heard during the turnchats?
We can't even be a Republic, as many of our representatives will be unable to attend as well. Maybe Civ DespotGame would be a more accurate name

All the more reason to take part in the discussion threads and polls between turn chats. Decisions should be made prior to the turn chats, not during them.

 

[Falcon02]

Originally posted by Veera Anlai
As best I can tell, this chat is pretty much inconvenient for Americans and many Euros. In America, it's 4 am. In Europe, that'd still be only 9 am. I just think this is a bad idea...
Having these chats at such ungodly hours, I believe, is contrary to the spirit of the Civ Democracy Game. How can we be a democracy when a majority of our citizens will no longer have the opportunity to have themselves be heard during the turnchats?
We can't even be a Republic, as many of our representatives will be unable to attend as well. Maybe Civ DespotGame would be a more accurate name

Say that to the Civ II Demogame guys... If I'm not mistaken they've never had turn chats, if I'm wrong I KNOW, the haven't always had turn chats, we were the first to do it, and they were nearly halfway through their game when we started.

 

[Veera Anlai]

So then you're saying you don't want turn chats? Then why are we even bothering to make Shaitan wake up at 4 AM to have a chat nobody apparently cares about?

Judging by the Turn Chat I was able to attend, these things are incredibly popular. Why are we moving it to 4 AM simply because of *one* person? That's completely against the principles of Democracy! Shaitan says he warned us about this, but his statement was misleading at best.

Chats will be scheduled as my time permits with the majority in the morning, EST.

Morning, that sounds innocuous enough. 9 AM, 10 AM... Just don't sleep in. But he sets it for 4 AM! That's stretching the definition of morning quite a lot, and would be more accurately described as "Dead of the Night." Even worse, this chat has been scheduled on a school night! And for those Euros who this time supposedly benefits? Many of them will already be *in* school at 4 AM EST.

Either allow the normal population to be able to attend these chats by having them at a reasonable time, or don't even bother with the farce of having them. Normal people just don't stay up until 4 in the morning to talk about playing a game.

 

[Falcon02]

Veera, all I'm saying is that "Late turn chat" or "No turn chat" doesn't equal dictatorship, and isn't 100% a bad thing. I PREFER having turn chats I and most of the populous can attend, I think not being able to attend detracts from the game. And I understand what Shaitan is saying. He's got his priorities straight... Family THEN Civilization. WE DID vote him in. So while I'd prefer turn chats where most people can attend, we've got Shaitan, and w/o an impeachment or resignation he's here to stay for the term. (I DO NOT support an impeachment).

The President's PRIMARY purpose is to play the game, they have little role aside from that. I've known Shaitan since the begaining of the first Demogame, he's NOT seeking a dictatorship, he WROTE our constitution for the most part. I believe that no other time would be convient for him (Taking into account needing family time.)

I LIKE being able to attend turn chats, I prefer it ALOT more, but the president's will is the president's will. And if Shaitan's schedule is as constrained as he says he is (which I believe since he has declined many nominations due to the fact he wouldn't be able to attend turn chats most of the world would), then the only way to fix it is not have Shaitan as president, and I want to at least give him a chance.

 

[Veera Anlai]

The President's will may be the President's will, but the People's will is the People's will. And in a democracy, guess who's will is more important?

If the President's PRIMARY purpose is to play the game, then it must not be a very important job in the scheme of thing. For such an unimportant position, we're causing a whole lot of hassle.

As for family, I sympathize with him about that, but *all* of us have families. And how many of them would want their husbands, sons, daughters, or wives chatting with strangers at 4 in the morning?

I voted for Shaitan, but had I known about this scheduling debacle, I would've voted otherwise. That's why I'm very peeved he didn't mention this in the debates.

Although I'm sure that he's a great person who has worked for the benefit of this game, I believe that with his busy and unorthodox schedule, perhaps it would be beneficial to Fanatika to have a different leader. Sorry to put it so bluntly, and I mean no offense to Shaitan, but this just isn't right.

And just a question, but does Shaitan work 7 days a week? If not, why can't he schedule a weekend chat at a more normal time?

 

[Cyc]

Veera Anlai - I really like your name and your title (I can't wait to see your avatar).

Personally, I think i've missed 2 whole turn chats in the last 7 months. Well, I missed the last one too (it wasn't my fault), but so did everyone else. I am a devoted turn chat supporter. I too am going to feel stranded without being able to attend this term's t/c. But I, like most people here knew this was going to come about. Shaitan has repeatedly explained his situation openly to the forums. In the mean time, he has taken on more work than anyone else in these Democracy games. As has been stated before, he has held other positions, basically wrote the Constitution, developed the RPG leg of the Demogame to a point where people like me, who swore they would not be members, are now die-hard fans. He's a great guy, and if he turns into a bad one, I know where he's buried all his skeletons.

You on the other hand are fairly knew here. As of now, I don't know what you represent. So right now, I'm going to ask you to have a little faith in the system. It's going to be OK. I'm sure Shaitan will keep an accurate chat log the whole turn chat and post screenshots. We will make it through this.

 

[Veera Anlai]

I may be new, but I really wish I'd found this place a long time ago. I've read through most all of the posts made within the last week, as well as the rules, constitution, and the save game. I hope to be an informed citizen, and I hope people don't hold the fact that I'm new against me. My opinion should be just as valid as the next person's.

I respect Shaitan for being a long time devotee, and for all the hard work he's put into this, but I just have to question the wisdom of that decision. Even the best aren't always correct, and having all of the community make a sacrifice for the rather small benefit of one doesn't quite make sense.

And I'm sure he'll keep logs and all that, but there's a large difference between taking part in something and reading recordings of them ;-) Obviously we can survive through this, but it isn't going to be as fun, and really, that's what it's all about in the end.

 

[Myartar]

Originally posted by Veera Anlai
The President's will may be the President's will, but the People's will is the People's will. And in a democracy, guess who's will is more important?

If the President's PRIMARY purpose is to play the game, then it must not be a very important job in the scheme of thing. For such an unimportant position, we're causing a whole lot of hassle.

Yes, you're right. We are causing a whole lot of hassle for nothing. Not much is put to the citizens in a TC, as I recall. Most of it is the president saying "ok, I'm doing this now. Alright, Persia did this. Right then, Rome built a city there." The real decisions (declaring war, starting trades, setting build queues) should be made on the forums anyway. I use to go to TCs in game 1, but got incredibly bored with it. Shaitan knows what he's doing. I'm sure if it came down to it where we were attacked, threatened, or any other MAJOR event were to happen, he'd suspend the TC so he could get the popular opinion.

Originally posted by Veera Anlai

As for family, I sympathize with him about that, but *all* of us have families. And how many of them would want their husbands, sons, daughters, or wives chatting with strangers at 4 in the morning?

I voted for Shaitan, but had I known about this scheduling debacle, I would've voted otherwise. That's why I'm very peeved he didn't mention this in the debates.

Wouldn't you say that's your fault for not making a truely informed decision? You said earlier that you assumed "morning" meant 9 or 10am. Isn't that what you get for assuming? Couldn't you have PMed or posted asking what "morning" meant?

Originally posted by Veera Anlai

Although I'm sure that he's a great person who has worked for the benefit of this game, I believe that with his busy and unorthodox schedule, perhaps it would be beneficial to Fanatika to have a different leader. Sorry to put it so bluntly, and I mean no offense to Shaitan, but this just isn't right.

And just a question, but does Shaitan work 7 days a week? If not, why can't he schedule a weekend chat at a more normal time?

There is much more to the game than TC. I mean, there is a reason that there are normally only 2 or 3 TC a week and that's b/c most decisions are made on the forums. Like Falcon said, the Civ II demo game doesn't use TC and they get by just fine b/c they put trust in thier leader. If you have a problem w/ Shaitan's in-game choices, let him know in forums. If you have a problem w/ the rule saying the president sets the TC time, try and change the rule. But calling for his resignation or impeachment just b/c he has inconvenient TC times is irresponsible.

 

[Cyc]

Quoting Veera Anlai:
_____________________________________________
I may be new, but I really wish I'd found this place a long time ago. I've read through most all of the posts made within the last week, as well as the rules, constitution, and the save game. I hope to be an informed citizen, and I hope people don't hold the fact that I'm new against me. My opinion should be just as valid as the next person's.
_____________________________________________
I wish you had found this place a long time ago, too. This is such a cool place. The people here are good, although getting discussion out of them sometimes can be like pulling teeth, they will speak up when they feel their rights have been clipped. Just as you have. We will not hold the fact that you are new, nor the fact that you spoke up against you. Speaking up is your primary responsibility as a citizen in Fanatika. Welcome.

 

[Veera Anlai]

Wouldn't you say that's your fault for not making a truely informed decision? You said earlier that you assumed "morning" meant 9 or 10am. Isn't that what you get for assuming? Couldn't you have PMed or posted asking what "morning" meant?

If I wrote an email asking for a clarification of every word that has more than one connotation, I'd be spending every second of every day writing them But typically, morning means after the sun rises until noon. Most people just don't think of that early as being classified 'morning.' And resignation? No, negotiation or compromise would be better. I could even settle for a Turn Chat in the wee hours of the night if it wasn't on a blasted school/work night!

And Cyc, thanks a lot for the kind words. It's very nice of you

 

[Shaitan]

@Veera - Sorry for the confusion. I've been talking about needing 4AM chats if I was Pres for so long (and that being the reason I refused each nomination) that it just became an established fact in my mind. As I noted before, I hope to go to one evening and one morning chat per week as soon as things smooth out so the Forum feeds the chat instructions as designed.

Your newness will absolutely not be held against you. We were all new once.

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Cyc
Quoting Veera Anlai:
_____________________________________________
I may be new, but I really wish I'd found this place a long time ago. I've read through most all of the posts made within the last week, as well as the rules, constitution, and the save game. I hope to be an informed citizen, and I hope people don't hold the fact that I'm new against me. My opinion should be just as valid as the next person's.
_____________________________________________
I wish you had found this place a long time ago, too. This is such a cool place. The people here are good, although getting discussion out of them sometimes can be like pulling teeth, they will speak up when they feel their rights have been clipped. Just as you have. We will not hold the fact that you are new, nor the fact that you spoke up against you. Speaking up is your primary responsibility as a citizen in Fanatika. Welcome.

Cyc..... I think you just said the wrong thing in a thread I'm subsribed to.

 

[Cyc]

@ Strider - ???

You mean I stepped in it again? Please clarify.
Ah, I get it. An invitation to speak up...

 

[Falcon02]

Veera, We all used to be new here, before the Demogame, I was just another <50 post forum newbie in the forums. (I had actually gone through several months where I didn't post anything, and thent he Demogame started me back up). As the Demogame Developed I became Military Chat Rep. then Military Leader very quickly, so... No I don't hold you're newness here against you.

Give Shaitan a chance, I'm sure he'll impress, and the sacrifice of evening t/c may be worth it. But I'll still be glad when I can attend again.

 

[Octavian X]

My only concern is if no one shows up at a chat. To me, this would effectively be a closed session. It's just like a when English kings would call sessions of Parliament in places where it was impossible for them to meet, basically giving the king free reign.

If ever, Shaitan, a chat starts and no one's around, reschedule for a later time. Otherwise, I would seriously consider calling for a PI.

 

[disorganizer]

well, in fact for being a democracy the president is not needed at all. due to the spirit behind our rules, all instructions for the chat should be layed out in the forum.
this was so in the first demogame, but got lost somehow on the way to this one.
so as said before, this will finally force us to do as we should have done from the beginning: discuss and lay out good plans in advance.

 

[Veera Anlai]

But doesn't discussing and planning in advance take more power away from the people and put much more into the hands of our elected officials? In turn chats, with the spot votes, the people have a larger say in what happens, even if it may take a bit longer.

Hey, we're changing from a Despot into a Republic ;-)

 

[disorganizer]

nope. the plans need to be done WITH the people. not leader-only
this way also the people not able to take part in the chats will be able to participate.

 

[Chieftess]

Originally posted by eyrei
In my opinion, it is selfish to complain that for the first time in history you cannot attend turn chats. I don't remember there being much complaining every term from our non-American citizens that the turn chats were not convenient for them.

Then, what about the citizen voice? If we don't like something, you can't say "It's complaining", since it's a Democracry game, not a Despot game.

 

[disorganizer]

Well, even in a democraxy you can xomplain ;-)
And btw, he is right It was a nice new experience for me to be able to attend a TC from start to end