4000BC: tech path OK?

[guermantes]

Hi!
I rolled a resource-rich environment with Isabella, but am not quite sure about initial tech path. I think I prefer worker to workboat, though. I am thinking about going AH first, for the pigs and then sheep. Then BW to hook up the gold and start chopping away so I can do something with the land (cottages). Does that sound alright?

I am a bit scared that my worker will be taskless between mining and BW not even able to lay down roads, but I don't think there is a better alternative. It will be a bit of a slow start; could I do better?

I have never had this much food in my capital. My initial thought would be to go for mines and cottages. A bit conventional, maybe, but at least I know how to pull that off (GP farms have never worked for me, I don't quite know why I can't create them.)

 

[Seraiel]

Research AH and Mining, improve the Animals and the Gold, no need for anything more, Alpha-time. Trade for everything, be faster. You don't grow your city past size 3 for Settler production anyhow, so why even bother with useless Fishing and resource-intensive Workboats before you got city 2 and 3. You're making the error of researching one thing after the other, you need to learn to skip as much as you can. With Gold, you don't need Cottages, with that Food, you don't need Chops, you also don't need 4 times Food, you'd only grow into Unhappiness, and then you'd want Granaries to whip Settlers if you go BW, it's an endless chain. Try to see the beauty of this start, you only need 2 techs before you can research Writing. Researching everything is the typical old-school approach, leads you to being backwards and needing Aesthetics to even get back in the game. Better stay in front in first place. Alpha gives you what, 8-10 techs by trade? You'd need way longer to research all those and then you'd not have Alpha, you can be first though and get everything for free + have nice 3 cities before you chop-whip out the Granaries with traded BW to continue REX. Ofc. you can also stay at 3 cities and rush, your choice.

 

[guermantes]

Much food for thought, there. Thanks!

Yes, I am still pretty old-school. I have been playing on and off for many years, but still have not learnt to master "trading as a strategy" as opposed to just "trading once in a while". Explains why I am still at Monarch, I guess.

It's a fractal/standard size map, I guess I will be lucky if I meet three civs.

So let me re-cap:
0) AH -> M -> A
1) when I get Alpha, I will have to be ok with trading it away? (since I will not have much else to trade)
2) emphasize at least two settlers (and warriors for barbs) before building workboats or other buildings.

 

[stevenburns]

A little bit tricky. I guess I'd tech Mining first and start with a worker. Squeeze out two warriors and start a settler on size two and build it on mined pigs and gold. Tech path then would be Mining - Agg - AH. But we need some scouting to decide anything else. Second city might grab the northern cows and will be a solid worker pump at size on while being insta-connected.

 

[guermantes]

Research AH and Mining, improve the Animals and the Gold, no need for anything more, Alpha-time.

Looking at the research tree, this strategy makes me a bit nervous. While researching Writing and Alpha, my worker won't have anything to do. He can't road, farm, cottage or chop. Only one mine to build at that will be done fast. And since we're close to the tundra he can't even lay back and improve on his sun tan.

I thought wasted worker turns in the early game was an absolute no-no, and here we are talking upwards 20 turns with nothing to do. What am I missing?

 

[Seraiel]

A little bit tricky. I guess I'd tech Mining first and start with a worker. Squeeze out two warriors and start a settler on size two and build it on mined pigs and gold. Tech path then would be Mining - Agg - AH. But we need some scouting to decide anything else. Second city might grab the northern cows and will be a solid worker pump at size on while being insta-connected.

Never research Mining before the mandatory food-tech. Also, Mining the Pigs would be a waste, the Sheep give the same yields but the Pigs give 1 yield more with a Pasture. And Settler at size 2 is overkill, size 3 is only 2T slower or like that, and a size 3 city with 3 high-yield tiles has a completely different potential then a size 2 city when it comes to Settler 2 and Workboats + Granaries once Alpha.

Looking at the research tree, this strategy makes me a bit nervous. While researching Writing and Alpha, my worker won't have anything to do. He can't road, farm, cottage or chop. Only one mine to build at that will be done fast. And since we're close to the tundra he can't even lay back and improve on his sun tan.

I thought wasted worker turns in the early game was an absolute no-no, and here we are talking upwards 20 turns with nothing to do. What am I missing?

You're missing that you found city 2 and 3 and that the Worker can also improve them. Simply build Settlers and stay at 1 Worker and once you can chop and whip, you get enough so your cities can develop further than size 3 or 4. Also don't forget, that you'll have Alpha 2200 BC.

 

[Seraiel]

Mine the Sheep, gives you a 5 yield tile just like if you build a Pasture, but then you'll have less problems because of too much Food later.

 

[stevenburns]

Too lazy to calculate, but Mining first and settler at size 2 will most probably lead to an earlier 2nd city and plenty more turns of working the gold mine. I agree on mining the sheep though. It saves a worker turn as well. I dont like the wasted worker turns with Hunting-->AH-->Mining. Without a tile with at least one commerce to work early on, this way will result in 5 wasted worker turns. (6t Hunting, 14t AH, iirc. Monarch difficulty might be a turn less.)

 

[Seraiel]

He can work the unimproved Seafood while producing the Worker, slightly slower Worker, faster on the techs.

And I also don't like to calculate, but growing on a 2 mined Sheeps is really slow compared to growing on a 5 pastured Pigs, and the Pigs also have the advantage, that the city can grow further to size 3. I'd probably even work the mined Sheep as a 2nd tile to grow faster and then take the Goldmine at size 3. Commerce is important, but not that important that early, Palace makes the most. 2nd city will be 2T later, as said, but 3rd and 4th city will be at least 5-8T faster with another 5 yield tile. It's basically investing longer for higher payback, and there's no doubt that this will pay back, even with snowball.

I'd btw. go Agri -> AH, Hunting is so useless. Chances are, that city 2 or 3 will have a farming resource. Again takes 1T longer, but chances are really good that it'll pay off.

No offense.

 

[guermantes]

Alpha gives you what, 8-10 techs by trade?

I guess I was unlucky; this sure did not pay off...
I hold you responsible for this débacle, Seraiel.
I think I'll reload a new game.

I scouted as far as I could and only met Kublai. Had to offer Writing for Agriculture, and the next turn he would not trade any more. We had open border since possible and I never begged from him. Even gifting Mysticism didn't open up for any trade.

It would probably have looked different if I had been on that other island.

 

[learner gamer]

Alpha gives you what, 8-10 techs by trade?

My guess is that this depends on (i) what level you're playing on (ie. so how fast the AI tech) (ii) how many AI you meet and (iii) their propensities to tech trade.

 

[Pangaea]

Looking at the WB screenshot - bad luck. Semi isolation is a toughie due to limited/no trade unless you get the civ to friendly. This is why (or one of the reasons) a lot of people prefer Pangaea maps. Everything is there, including all AIs, you don't need a navy, can easier control the civs (no runaway civ on another continent), and winning domination or conquest is therefore easier, for example with Cuirs stomping.

 

[guspasho]

I guess I was unlucky; this sure did not pay off...
I hold you responsible for this débacle, Seraiel.
I think I'll reload a new game.

I scouted as far as I could and only met Kublai. Had to offer Writing for Agriculture, and the next turn he would not trade any more. We had open border since possible and I never begged from him. Even gifting Mysticism didn't open up for any trade.

It would probably have looked different if I had been on that other island.

I've noticed that an unusual number of fractal starts are isolated or semi-isolated starts. I hate those. I like to rush someone early for an early advantage but you can't do that if it leaves you with few or no trading partners.

 

[Izuul]

Fractal with low sea level can often spawn 1 large landmass, albeit very irregularly shaped. I would recommend either adding an AI or two or just dropping the map size down a notch to compensate for the extra land though because the map will be large.

With high sea level fractal you quite frequently get multiple continents and the chances of being isolated or semi-isolated are pretty high.

 

[stevenburns]

He can work the unimproved Seafood while producing the Worker, slightly slower Worker, faster on the techs.

And I also don't like to calculate, but growing on a 2 mined Sheeps is really slow compared to growing on a 5 pastured Pigs, and the Pigs also have the advantage, that the city can grow further to size 3. I'd probably even work the mined Sheep as a 2nd tile to grow faster and then take the Goldmine at size 3. Commerce is important, but not that important that early, Palace makes the most. 2nd city will be 2T later, as said, but 3rd and 4th city will be at least 5-8T faster with another 5 yield tile. It's basically investing longer for higher payback, and there's no doubt that this will pay back, even with snowball.

I'd btw. go Agri -> AH, Hunting is so useless. Chances are, that city 2 or 3 will have a farming resource. Again takes 1T longer, but chances are really good that it'll pay off.

No offense.

I dont think I'll ever take offense on an online board on a computer game.

Can I get the starting save in a way to start it on Deity? I'm really curious right now if my often misleading intuition is right here or just once again plain wrong.

 

[guermantes]

Can I get the starting save in a way to start it on Deity? I'm really curious right now if my often misleading intuition is right here or just once again plain wrong.

I only have this save. I don't know if you can tweak the difficulty level, somehow. (It's Monarch now)

 

[stevenburns]

I only have this save. I don't know if you can tweak the difficulty level, somehow. (It's Monarch now)

Does anyone know if there's a chance to upgrade the save to Deity? Cause I don't.

 

[Seraiel]

You need to open it in world-builder and save it as a world-builder-file. Then afaik you can open it in scenarios where you can select Deity. You will have to add the starting techs and units to everybody again, including the barbs.

 

[stevenburns]

You need to open it in world-builder and save it as a world-builder-file. Then afaik you can open it in scenarios where you can select Deity. You will have to add the starting techs and units to everybody again, including the barbs.

Thx. I'll give it a try tonight. That's about 7 hours from now on...

 

[Gumbolt]

In fairness by time you had teched mining/AH/Writing it should of dawned on you that you might be semi isolated.

The map settings are not great. Low sea level and 6 other AI is not enough. Your continent alone could of fit at least 1 more AI.