Good point, Copernicus should be built in our science town. That town should be maxed on everything to wring every bit of commerce out of it. I'd say Newtons and possible Shake's be built there too. As far as mlitary action goes, having an army allows the Military Academy in our Capital, a great way to do pre-builds.
Universal Suffrage should work for ToE as a pre-build, and you can probably use Hoover's Dam as a pre-build for the modern wonders. Then you can use the Internet or the Manhattan Project or Nukes. Maybe you guys would get lucky to spawn an MGL on the first elite kill, but does it work out as really worth it to fight enough battles to get an MGL? And when will the optional Military Tradition show up anyway?
If we had want Copernicus built in Novograd we can go for it, however if we build it in moscow we are more likely to get it, the production their is much higher.
Edit : My preference would be to keep Sistines Where it is and build Copernicus in Moscow, as this is SGL apart the most likely way to get these two wonders
I would hope we have sanitation before free artistry so i dont think shakes is much of an option.
My preference for the next tech is engineering as i think we should leave banking for the AI, their is little point in banks yet, later when we can get stock exchanges (then we would sell them once wall street built)
Edit 2 : the other option might be navigation as a tech, to open up secure trade opportunities
If we had want Copernicus built in Novograd we can go for it, however if we build it in moscow we are more likely to get it, the production their is much higher.
Edit : My preference would be to keep Sistines Where it is and build Copernicus in Moscow, as this is SGL apart the most likely way to get these two wonders
I would hope we have sanitation before free artistry so i dont think shakes is much of an option.
My preference for the next tech is engineering as i think we should leave banking for the AI, their is little point in banks yet, later when we can get stock exchanges (then we would sell them once wall street built)
Edit 2 : the other option might be navigation as a tech, to open up secure trade opportunities
No, we need to get Banking, hopefully while the AI is getting Feudalism and/or Engineering, thus saving us a tech worth of research. If we dio Eng/Feudalism, we could run the whole bottom of the tech tee without ever seeing the AI sniff at Banking.
No, we need to get Banking, hopefully while the AI is getting Feudalism and/or Engineering, thus saving us a tech worth of research. If we dio Eng/Feudalism, we could run the whole bottom of the tech tee without ever seeing the AI sniff at Banking.
No, this is true, but they have a better chance of getting us Engineering while we get Banking (even if it's a slim chance) than they do of getting us Banking while we get Engineering/etc. Even if they go for Education (maybe), they probably won't go for Banking after that.
Not to mention that I shudder to think of their research time for Banking right now.
I think that we should do Banking before we embark on the lower branch of the tech tree. As far as Copernicus goes, we can build it in any of our 3 cities if we don't trade Astronomy around. That's why I think our science city should get it. The only way we might lose it is a Leo's-Sun Tzu's-ToA-Sistines cascade, which is unlikely if we don't trade Astronomy around.
The reason I would go engineering next is that we can learn 8 techs, engineering, invention, gunpowder, chemistry, physics, metallurgy, magnetism, ant theory of gravity while the AI learns banking, if we go banking and they havent learnt engineering we will just have to learn it ourselves.
The AI can only do banking if they have education. I usually take the bottom branch, but I don't build wonders, because I usually am playing domination strategiess. The bottom branch is more for military games than late victory types. I think that learning those 8 techs by ourselves isn't going to be practical. I vote Banking.
lurker's comment: After your comment, I decided to give it a shot, pangea, monarch, 5CC, all scientific opponents, sedentary barbs. The techpace was pretty dissapointing in my game. Apart from the free techs in each age, I think I got the lower tech tree from invention up to chemistry from them and a little ancient age stuff, mostly because of the sedentary barbs. Other than that, it was all self researched. Maybe the lack of war was more harmful than it was good. None of the AI really had a good size of land, so that might have slowed research considerably.
I think Overseer probably has the right idea with banking. That lower path gives the AI all the things they like, better units, a resource with saltpeter and such. They'll value those techs a lot higher than banking.
Part of the problem is that once you go industrial, they're off researching a bunch of techs that you really don't want (the Nationalism branch). IF you can get a nice grip on the ToE and get that covered easily, it's not a bad idea to go Industrialization-Corporation first, gift those off or try to trade for & distribute Electricity and Indust/Corp; that way there's a decent chance they can get you Refining while you go Replaceable Parts + Steel.
Other than that and the age-change gifting, they aren't good for much.
Gifting them techs as you go can help. But not much.
Part of the problem is that once you go industrial, they're off researching a bunch of techs that you really don't want (the Nationalism branch). IF you can get a nice grip on the ToE and get that covered easily, it's not a bad idea to go Industrialization-Corporation first, gift those off or try to trade for & distribute Electricity and Indust/Corp; that way there's a decent chance they can get you Refining while you go Replaceable Parts + Steel.
If you know you have a lock on ToE and will take the usually Atomic Theory and Electronics, why not get the AI Electricity and let them research Replacable Parts for you also?
If you know you have a lock on ToE and will take the usually Atomic Theory and Electronics, why not get the AI Electricity and let them research Replacable Parts for you also?
That works decently too. The one I'm basically certain on is that they all go for Refining over Steel roughly 99% of the time, but RP is another pretty good choice. The drawback to that is that RP comes much later than you'd normally like it to. (In a more "normal" game, I'd be going for RP before even getting near Sci Method, because I want/need the rails more than we might in this game.)
Of course, we're 5CC, so we don't have a great deal of land to improve.
On the other hand, we won't have a large number of workers to do that improving (rails) either, so the increased food from railing/irrigating (and the increased science) comes a bit later as a result.
Okay, I've played. Astronomy and Banking in, we've started on Engineering, and we're not broke... yet.
I'll spare any pictures, because fundamentally nothing has changed.
Turn logs:
Spoiler:
5CC SG notes, 150 BC:
Science: Astronomy in 3, -45 gpt, 342 gold in the bank.
Micro notes:
Switch forest at Novogrod to a mined BG. More commerce, same production for now thanks to corruption. Novogrod will pick forest back up on growth, will recheck then.
Switch the roaded silks at Yaroslavl to the mined river BG to pick up a shield at the cost of 2 commerce; I should be able to MM this to pick up the harbor a turn sooner.
I swap Moscow from Sun Tzu to the Great Wall--we don't need the barracks, and the GW will give tourism income sooner.
Novogrod is on a harbor, which we will swap to Copernicus' Observatory in three turns. It would have been handy to not build whatever we just built there, or partially buy it, to get some shields going sooner. No big deal though. Novogrod is going to be a slow builder, but there isn't much we can do.
Everything else looks OK.
Units:
Retreat our 3/5 ACav towards our borders, hopefully it will get a chance to heal some. Two barbarian horses were next to it.
Hit Enter.
130 BC (1):
The Hittites are building The Great Wall.
Swap forest at Novogrod to mined grass. A road completes on another unmined grass, move that worker to the bG, road will complete there next turn and then we can mine that bG in two turns. That plus a forest should bring our shields up a bit there.
Not sure what the plan was for the warrior between Moscow and Yaroslavl, but I move him into the latter to disband him to get our Harbor a turn faster.
I'm able to drop science to 60% and still get Astronomy in 2; we're 24 bpt short of getting it a turn sooner. For the next couple turns we are going to be about +22 gpt, which is a nice thing.
The Inca have the relevant gpt available (20 gpt), but we're not giving up Education for it.
110 BC (2):
Move a couple units. Science to 50% (+ 42 gpt). Astronomy in 1.
90 BC (3):
Astronomy in. Set science to Banking at 100%, due in 7 turns, -43 gpt (361 gold in bank). 90% also gives us 7 turns, so there's a lot of play in this number. With some luck maybe we can pull it off in 6?
Harbor in at Yaroslavl. I set it to maximize commerce at the cost of production, using the fish + all river tiles except the forest. Set to Courthouse at 6 spt, due in 14.
Switch Novogrod to Copernicus' Observatory.
Barb on the northern tip of our peninsula, send eACav to kill and show barb camp.
Another ACav (4/5) dispatches a barb on the coast north of Yaroslavl, next to the camp now. Next turn should be profitable.
IBT: Horse impales itself on our 4/5 ACav, creating a 5/6 eACav in its place. Thanks.
70 BC (4):
We get an ACav from the Statue of Zeus.
Attack two barb camps, kill two warriors, but horses underneath both. We get another barb camp in our far far southwest, which will be of no great concern.
50 BC (5):
Dispatch two barb camps (+50 gold) with no great harm to our ACav.
30 BC (6):
Dispatch a barb camp worth 25 gold.
We are getting 228 bpt, and we will be over by 203 beakers on our last turn of Banking (4 turns left). Time to look for ways to get 9 more bpt right now! Some micromanaging at Rostov and Yekaterineburg (commerce instead of production) finds 10, which is just enough to shave Banking down to 3 turns. *thumbs up*
10 BC (7):
Hittites start Great Lighthouse, France starts Sun Tzu.
Banking back to 3 turns, as a barb messed up our fish at Novogrod. Some light MM and we're back to 2. A road completing on our forest at Novogrod helped. In fact, we're projected to be a whopping 13 beakers over. I'll enjoy that cushion, thank you.
10 AD (8):
MM Yekaterineburg (more food, less hill), University still due in 3.
Babylon has Chivalry.
Portugal does have some gems that we don't have, it would be nice to trade with them. But we're at war. Oh well.
30 AD (9):
Banking in; nothing to do now but research Engineering. Good news, we can get it in 4 turns; bad news, that's at 100% science. 170 gold, -42 gpt. We're about at the point where selling Education around may be inevitable (and profitable). Quick check of what's available for it:
Vikings: 65 gold
France: 2 gold for Theology
Ottomans: 17 gold
Hittites: 10 gold for Monotheism or Feudalism
Portugal (war)
Babylon: Chivalry + 38 gold
Inca: 135 gold + 32 gpt.
That Inca deal would let us research at almost break-even gpt for the next 20 turns. I don't take it, but I feel like maybe we should.
We get an ACav.
50 AD (10): We get a palace expansion.
Babylon starts Sun Tzu.
Novogrod is about to go unhappy; I can't set luxury to 10% without making science drop a turn, so I set a scientist there.
Things to consider for the upcoming turnset:
1. Do we sell Education to the Inca? It's a risk, of course. But we are at significant deficit research. Selling Education would bring our net gpt from -59 (did we lose a deal that I missed) to -27, and give us a cushion beyond that. What I would actually do is the following:
A. Sell Education to Babylon for Chivalry and all their gold (12).
B. Sell Inca Chivalry for all their gold and gpt (89g, 32 gpt).
C. Sell Chivalry around and clean up the gold from Portugal (95, make peace), and perhaps Scandinavia (55) and Ottomans (27). That will give us a cushion to get through the next few turns.
If this were a solo game, I would have already made this deal, I feel fairly strongly that it's right, but I leave it to the team.
2. We need 716 beakers over the next 3 turns to get Engineering. That's 239 per turn. We are bringing in 246 bpt with current settings (including the scientist in Novogrod), so we do not have a lot of play there. We will complete the university in Yekaterinburg for a few additional bpt next turn, which will help a bit.
3. I have set Moscow to make the Great Wall, mainly for the tourism income. If you'd rather have something else there (Sun Tzu), that's fine; the Wall has no use to us other than the shiny money that will eventually kick in. But that's better than anything else we could be doing there. I would also recommend letting the Wall complete because after that Moscow needs to be on a bit of worker duty, because...
4. We will have some heavy foresting to do. We want to get all our cities to size 12, 24 fpt total, and as many shields as we can get in the short term. Once Sanitation nears we can worry about chopping those forests and re-irrigating. But this is the time to build those pesky banks, marketplaces, and the like that we're currently spewing out at a pretty slow pace.
5. The workers south of Moscow should road that square, then road 1 south, then one of those workers should colonize the fur. We need that luxury. In fact, shortly after that we should colonize the second fur so we have it available for trade when the time comes. We should also work to hook up the iron, though speed is not a priority there. We could potentially trade that iron though, even if we aren't using it.
6. It might be worth stopping the worker that is mining at Moscow; he could move directly to the fur and save us a turn colonizing. Normally I wouldn't be too worried about that one turn, but we need the luxury for Novogrod pretty desperately (and our other cities will like it too, they're getting close to needing it).
We're not that close, it's 20+ turns if I remember right. The risk of a cascade is there. I think it's worth risking though.
Once we hook up furs, I think we can merge workers to get Novogrod to size 12 (which will help financially too) without killing ourselves on luxuries. It's worth looking at anyway. That'll shave a few turns off Cop's.
We're not that close, it's 20+ turns if I remember right. The risk of a cascade is there. I think it's worth risking though.
Once we hook up furs, I think we can merge workers to get Novogrod to size 12 (which will help financially too) without killing ourselves on luxuries. It's worth looking at anyway. That'll shave a few turns off Cop's.
We are definately getting war happiness from portugal.
I will make more comments when I have a look at the save, but if we do sell education it may be worth building Copernicus in Moscow, with its lower corruption it is almost as good as Novograd and will be much more of a certainty.
At a higher level, I would not dare trade Education. I think we could risk it if Moscow is building Copernicus, but Novograd is such a production dog that if we try there, we will lose it.
If we run engineerin on an extra turn, we could then sell engineering and keep educacation, if we did sell engineering I would build Copernicus in Moscow though, there again the AI might self research education
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