A case for forum members easing up on 2K a bit

[Trias]

In which case, it sounds like a mega storm in a tea-cup. I'm pretty certain that when I bought my Civ4 DVD, I had to authenticate it online with some kind of code-key inside the case-how is this any different? Once I'd authenticated, I never had to have anything more to do with the online component unless I wanted to. Again, how is Steam going to be different? My guess is-IT WON'T. So where is all this whining coming from?

You are missing some key issues.

1) Even when in offline mode, the steam client needs to run in order to play civ.
2) Will running the steam client is running, it collects data on your playing habits. Besides using this data to help improve games (which can be considered a good thing), it can also be used for directed marketing, and there is no guarantee that valve doesn't sell this information to third parties. The steam privacy policy is somewhat unclear about is, and can be changed unilaterally by valve at their own whim.
3) It is unclear what other personal data the client collects about your computer use.
4) It is likely that the game will need to connect to steam for downloading updates. (This is one of the things that is made easier for the developer by using steamworks.)
5) Steam has a tendency to automatically push updates for games using steamworks. This could cause use compatibility issues for civ users, especially for mods. (Needs to confirmed/debunked by the developers for civ5.)


You might wonder what the difference is with the privacy concerns, once could have for any other game that regularly connects to the internet for updates and might collect personal data. Well:
1) This is usually prohibited in the product license agreement, which cannot be changed after the product is bought. (This is different from steam, where usage of the steam service is taken as implicit expectation of the steam terms of usage, and it is up to the user to check if these have changed recently.)
2) Any behavior like this would mostly likely get the software branded as spyware. (Somehow game companies are getting away with doing stuff to their client's computers, which would be intolerable for any other peice of software.)
3) In the case of a single game report usage information, the information is limited to the single game and cannot really be cross referenced with other information. This makes the information of limited commercial value and thus unlikely to be used to for anything other than game development. Valve with steam is collecting data on all games using steam, which can be cross referenced with any other information collected by the client like system specs, and personal info required at registration. This provides Valve with a combination of information that can be very valuable for marketing ends. Nor has valve made a secret of them want to use this information for this purpose.

 

[CTH]

Jenethro missed a few things I hope this helps:

You won't be able to play the game unless you update Steam whenever it needs to update. https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555

Some people report needing to reconnect to the internet every three weeks or so to play Steam-mandatory games. We've asked 2K Greg to respond to this issue (debunk, confirm for CIV V)

Your steam account may be hacked and you will lose access to all your games (until Steam sorts that out). Go to the steam forums and search "hacked" and "account" and read the horror stories.

All patches and updates will come from Steam and will occur automatically unless you turn them off (and again some people report forced patches and updates, which can effect your mods).

Steam may offer you games for sale -- expansions or discounts -- that require purchase of Steam download editions of games. Sometimes this is clear sometimes it isn't For example you may purchase EU3's "Heir to the Throne" expansion on Steam but it won't run unless you also purchase EU3 on Steam.

Personally, I can live with Steam, but there are legitimate reasons beyond invasive DRM schemes to be wary.

If you update steam when you install civ 5 you will be able to use civ5 offline forever or until you patch it at least. And steam wont update or patch anything if you are in a offline mode. And with offline mode I assume that the user dont give steam internet access.

I am also pretty sure that your steam account "cant" be hacked if you dont use it online (well if valve is hacked then your account could be hacked also).

I am not very positive towards steam but neither am I negative, it is just a tool.

 

[Ahriman]

Some people report needing to reconnect to the internet every three weeks or so to play Steam-mandatory games. We've asked 2K Greg to respond to this issue (debunk, confirm for CIV V)

It does sound like this is possible. It seems like the only way to absolutely guarantee that this doesn't happen is to reset Steam to offline mode every time you connect to the internet while Steam is running. [Or rather, make sure that you keep Steam closed every time you connect to the internet if you want your Steam status to remain unchanged.]
Which is an unreasonable burden.

Your steam account may be hacked and you will lose access to all your games (until Steam sorts that out). Go to the steam forums and search "hacked" and "account" and read the horror stories.

This one seems overblown to me. Someone could steal your credit card and buy lots of stuff online, and you will lose access to your credit card (until your bank sorts that out). Someone could break into your house and steal your computer.
Someone could knife you in the street!

All patches and updates will come from Steam and will occur automatically unless you turn them off (and again some people report forced patches and updates, which can effect your mods).

I think this is the biggest reasonable concern. Being forced to update is annoying; people should have total version control over their system.

 

[Grouchey]

Your steam account may be hacked and you will lose access to all your games (until Steam sorts that out). Go to the steam forums and search "hacked" and "account" and read the horror stories.

This one seems overblown to me. Someone could steal your credit card and buy lots of stuff online, and you will lose access to your credit card (until your bank sorts that out). Someone could break into your house and steal your computer. Someone could knife you in the street!

Maybe...but I've read too many accounts of it happening to people I actually know from elsewhere...for example http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=337760

 

[Tylerryan79]

The reason I think steam autopatches is for MP, so everyone can play together. Im sure they thought this was a great idea, but for a game like Civ, that is mainly sigle player, this isnt the best solution.

 

[Ahriman]

Maybe...but I've read too many accounts of it happening to people I actually know from elsewhere...for example http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=337760

Then maybe you should read less? ;-)

Data is not the plural of anecdote. What's the evidence that this is more of a problem then any other kind of identity theft?

 

[Tylerryan79]

I tend to agree with Ahriman, getting your account hacked is in the same realm as identity theft, getting knifed lol ect. To use it as a "Steam Only" problem isnt fair. Yes it could happen to you, but so couldnt the others. It doesnt mean you shouldnt live your life, and not play Civ V. Im sure if you googled for stories of identity theft, there would be a lot more worse case horror stories.

 

[Grouchey]

Then maybe you should read less? ;-)

Data is not the plural of anecdote. What's the evidence that this is more of a problem then any other kind of identity theft?

Weird argument, since comprehensive data is impossible to come by but the hacking is very real. I'll go with what I know, thank you. Steam is a website where millions of unsupervised teens are drawn like moths to a flame...Steam is a place where fewer phishing safeguards are taken, compared to other accounts I have. As I said in another post, these are mean streets, I'm surprised and disappointed that CIV wants us all to go there...

 

[Ahriman]

since comprehensive data is impossible to come by

It would be easy for Valve to monitor how many hacking complaints they receive per year as a % of total accounts.
I'm sure they have this data.

Not sure if they've published it though.

 

[BobDole]

You actually are asking for evidence...? It's not tough to find.

Former Take-Two execs must defend backdating suit; Judge refuses to dismiss securities fraud case
BioShock 2 to Feature SecuROM DRM
Icahn Grabs Bigger Stake in Take-Two
Take-Two Reaches $20M Settlement with Investors

Paul Eibeler's new moniker: worst CEO
Investment Blog Bashes Take-Two Boss Zelnick
Court Filing: 2KGames Developing "Duke Begins"
Grand Theft Auto Publisher Coughs Up $3.3M to Settle Old Cases
"Bioshock" Comes With Nasty DRM That Sets Off Anti-Virus Software, Ruins Everyone's Day
Bioshock 2 DRM: SecuROM, activation limits, and bears
2K pares down BioShock 2 DRM: SecuROM all but gone now

This could be done all day long... it's depressing to look at for any length of time!

Bottom Line: Take-Two/2K Does Not Get It, they won't get it, and they are trying to shove this crap down everyone's throat. I'm sure someone will try to defend them somehow and in someway, but it continues and does not end for them.

So you automatically assume 2K is going to steal everyone's data and screw everyone over and cancel their Steam subscriptions and do every other bad thing that could happen because of...

- Bioshock SecuROM DRM (which isn't being used here, I think most people would agree Steam is nowhere near as bad anyway).
- Some stock options backdating by former execs (sorry to say it, but uh.....lots of shady things happen in the stock market in case you never paid attention to it, and it's not like options backdating isn't incredibly rare, go look around, it has nothing to really do with the development of Civ V anyway)
- A quote about Take Two complaining about the Hot Coffee Mod (the whole Hot Coffee thing was BS, it was old and unused code that didn't really deserve to cost them nearly as much as it did).
-Some random link about a Duke Nukem game and some litigation which hasn't led to anything.
- A link about Take Two resisting the EA merger (good since EA would've ruined Civ more than anyone else could except maybe Activision.

Yeah, these are all definitely signs that 2K is evil incarnate and looking to do every single possible bad thing imaginable when it comes to Civ V. Maybe it's time to stop using random links or edited quotes (which already got one thread locked) to try and convince everyone the apocalypse is coming for Civ V...

 

[Slayan]

Senethro missed a few things I hope this helps:

You won't be able to play the game offline unless you update Steam whenever it needs to update. https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555

Some people report needing to reconnect to the internet every three weeks or so to play Steam-mandatory games. We've asked 2K Greg to respond to this issue (debunk, confirm for CIV V)

Your steam account may be hacked and you will lose access to all your games (until Steam sorts that out). Go to the steam forums and search "hacked" and "account" and read the horror stories.

All patches and updates will come from Steam and will occur automatically unless you turn them off (and again some people report forced patches and updates, which can effect your mods).

Steam may offer you games for sale -- expansions or discounts -- won't work unless you also purchase of Steam editions of related games. In my experience, sometimes this is clear and sometimes it isn't. For example you may purchase EU3's "Heir to the Throne" expansion on Steam but it won't run unless you also purchase EU3 on Steam.

Personally, I can live with Steam, but there are legitimate reasons beyond invasive DRM schemes to be wary.

What about people in the military that are overseas in the field and dont have an internet connection. So if they install before they deploy and cant get online while there on post. So they cant play because they cant get updates or re steamed?

 

[2K Greg]

What about people in the military that are overseas in the field and dont have an internet connection. So if they install before they deploy and cant get online while there on post. So they cant play because they cant get updates or re steamed?

If they do what you just said (install before they deploy, to activate the game while they have an Internet connection,) then they would be able to play in offline mode just fine.

 

[arstal]

So theres no point in Greg being here? You're just going to believe what you wish was true?


Because Steamworks gives more functionality than Impulse i.e. more than just DRM. Like has already been said many times in this thread.


You didn't get it. Steam decreased development time leading to either an earlier release or more time spent on other features. Therefore, better game.

I'm sure FPS fans with all their free weekends, free games and free content updates (from Valve at least) through Steam are gutted that you look down on them.

The free weekend thing is something that only works with Steam DRM. I'll give it that. That's one of the reasons I don't boycott Steam. That said, if I like something on it, I'll buy it somewhere else if I can, even if I have to pay more.

the content updates- Valve the developer I like. It's Valve the publisher I don't.

As for the 2K marketing folks- I'm sure they are nice people, I'm sure they aren't tying damsels to railroad tracks or anything of the sort. That said, they are paid employees to convince people like me to go against my wishes. They're not going to be too successful at that.

As for Steamworks's added functionality- it has no value to me on a game such as Civ.
I don't believe it decreases development time- I'm convinced that's marketing spin. If it really decreased development time, the 3rd-party Steamwork games such as Total war series wouldn't be shovelware quality. Those guys used to be good until Sega got a hold of them (Steamworks isn't to blame, but it's probably a symptom of the same disease)

 

[Senethro]

Its developer/publisher dependent. We know the TW series is turfed out the door as soon as possible while we can hope that Firaxis is able to use the extra man hours on making a better game.

 

[Gelvan]

If they do what you just said (install before they deploy, to activate the game while they have an Internet connection,) then they would be able to play in offline mode just fine.

what if they, by accident, came in a WAN-aerea and steem somehow concects to the internet? there is a huge concern, that IF steam is ever turned online (even for another game) that it will get to know there is an update and offline mode won't work anymore until the update is installed. which is, of course, bad for modding, but also bad if you lose internet access afterwards, before the update is ready.

for the hundreth time: why not just make an online registration - and that's it? why steam? it just does not make sense at all, to FORCE customers to install things they don't want to install. why not two versions?

what about the other question: you have been asked, if it will be a game with micromanagement, or of it is a civRev-style game. the answer was "you have to think in a new way". so you plan on macromanaging and moo3-style? if so, then you kill civilization as a franchise.

 

[Ahriman]

for the hundreth time: why not just make an online registration - and that's it? why steam?

For the hundredth time, because it is easier and cheaper to use an existing architecture than to create a new one. Its easier for them to provide the various Steam feature using Steam than it would be to separately create the same feature from scratch.
Example: its easier to distribute patches using Steam than to create your own system for auto-patching (and the Civ4 system is terrible and buggy).

why not two versions?

Because that would increase development costs.

 

[Gelvan]

all the civ4 patches are available on the internet, this costs maybe a bit bandwith and that's it. there is no need for an auto update function at all (never used the one in civ4). also, there are other games, that use autopatching, but for these you don't have to be wary what is updated and if your "buying-client" or your computer is connected to the internet.
and what is a better game? a turn based Rise of Nations, fast, for Multiplayer? if this is the definition of a good game, then they forget that most civ-gamers are singleplayers. what else could steamworks provide to a developer that's sooo cool, that your game automatically get's better? after all, steam is only a multiplayerfunctionality and distribution - but there are many other ways to distribute games.
the costs? they are easily refunded, by all the civ fans who don't like steam, and would buy that non-steam version. at the moment on every forum of civ this seems to be THAT problem people have, so why don't they understand that shard of a customer base at all?

 

[2K Greg]

what if they, by accident, came in a WAN-aerea and steem somehow concects to the internet? there is a huge concern, that IF steam is ever turned online (even for another game) that it will get to know there is an update and offline mode won't work anymore until the update is installed. which is, of course, bad for modding, but also bad if you lose internet access afterwards, before the update is ready.

The only way Steam would somehow connect to the Internet would be if the person told Steam to go to online mode. And in that case it's possible that they would need to update the game (I am not sure about this.)

This situation can be avoided however by simply staying in offline mode.

 

[Gelvan]

what if you have another game on steam that you WANT to update? doesn't work, right? at least you could only update the other game, and never ever play civ5 again, until you have civ5 updated as well. what if you buy a new game and have to register it online on steam? you would have to update civ5 then. true or false? (thanks for your reply)

 

[JBConquests]

As for Steamworks's added functionality- it has no value to me on a game such as Civ.
I don't believe it decreases development time- I'm convinced that's marketing spin.

I am a developer of business applications and this is a really simple concept. If Firaxis had to develop from scratch MP support and whatever else Steam gives them. It would cost them X # of days of development to do this. (I don't know how long so instead of guessing, I will use X) If they use steam instead, now they can spend X development days implementing other features which you may encounter in the single game.

Had they not used steam and build this MP support and whatever else Steam provides from scratch, some of the features, (X # of days worth) in the single player game would have not been implemented.

Understand, companies typically would not push the release date by X # of days or add new developers to develop an alternative to Steam. Typically the target for the release date and the # of resources is fixed prior to beginning development and they have to make the best use of those days and resources as they can.

I am not defending the decision to use Steam. I don't know enough about steam to know if I like it or not yet but I am concerned. But it should be obvious why the decision to use Steam impacts the single player game in an indirect but positive way.