A case for forum members easing up on 2K a bit

[Ahriman]

Doing it themselves, as I stated, would not be a bad thing for the reason given (save money).

If developing the capacity themselves rather than using an outside vendor saved them money, they would have done it that way.
Your vague "feeling" that it will save them money is based on what, exactly? Your expertise on software design cost-benefit analysis?

you assume that I assume they are stupid (made up out of thin air).

Your position requires that
a) Steam will cost them more money than it saved AND
b) Firaxis/2K failed to realize this.
What else would you call b) but an assumption of stupidity?

Which is more likely?
i) Firaxis/2K can't do cost-benefit analysis OR
ii) Your blithe assumption that Steam will cost them more is incorrect

Suddenly we find out you hate Capitalists (Firaxis and Civilization Series and the USA probably)

Greed comes not only from Capitalism, but from every form of economy. To think otherwise is being greedy with your hatred.

Your sarcasm detector is broken.

Incentive: Easy way out

The "easy way out" is what costs more money? Really, that's what you're going with?

So while 2K is still having an affair with SecuRom behind Steams' back, Steam can never be truly happy until 2K stops the sleeping around.

2K have explicictly stated no SecuRom for Civ5.

With Civ5, they're trying to see if they can do Steam alone.

If you don't like SecuRom, you should be at least a little pleased that they're trying to find alternatives.

I agree that there are plenty of reasons to be a little worried about some aspects of Steam (like forced updates). And discussing that is fine and healthy if done in a sensible reasonable manner. But I agree with thelibra entirely that the response to this is has gotten wildly out of hand.

Very little has ever been solved through yelling. Ultimately what changed the most things in history were two parties sitting at the same table and compromising so that neither got what they really wanted in the end, but that the result was acceptable to more than 50%.

And this kind of thing is absolutely impossible when people just assume that nothing the developers say is worth listening to, because its assumed that they're either deceitful (planning to force you to use their service to distribute fanmods, charging you extra to do so, and censornig mods they don't like) or fools (who are unable to do cost calculations or conceive of compatibility issues).

Give 2K some credit.

 

[Grouchey]

Well I just poured myself a big & I'm going to step away from the discussion for awhile, & give others a chance to speak...

Hopefully 2K Greg will answer my questions (hint, hint)

Whatever you do, don't mourn, organize!

 

[evrett37]

One small point...2k hasnt really been involved with civ for that long. First - remember 2k is marketing and distribution NOT DEVELOPMENT. Sales associates on the other side of the county from Firaxus. I beleive they were involved with the expansions to Civ 4 and whatever comes of civ 5. Thats about it.

We dont owe them any loyalty for civ 4 since the major product was already done by the time they assimilated Firaxis. And those civ 4 expansions while not complete crap werent that well done. And for that matter what is currently called Firaxis is a few major devs short of what it once was.

2k is just another mega corp jonny come lately here to squeeze the dollars out of what has become a brand. Save your loyalty for the hard working guys who built a labor of love. Not the marketing team here to sell you the leftovers.

 

[Mercade]

You girls are so funny. It's been quiet on the board all week in anticipation of the E3 of next week. Then someone posts a note suggesting everybody play nice and within 24 hours there's a 100+ note thread rehashing the same silly pro/con// discussion that's been held in dozens of other threads. I haven't seen a single new argument, only the same rooted convictions, mistrust and biting the hand that's bringing Civ5 to the world.

In a few hours the civ5 site may be up and we'll know all available civs and hopefully some more news like previously unpublished screenshots. Then we can all get back at interpreting every last pixel on the website for new clues about the actual game we're waiting for.

 

[Hypernova]

In a few hours the civ5 site may be up and we'll know all available civs and hopefully some more news like previously unpublished screenshots.

Oh?! I haven't visited CFC in a while did I miss something? The Civ V is up but nothing new on it...

 

[JBConquests]

Not necessarily a bad thing, they will be paying Steam for the rest of eternity likely for Steam service, which will be a far cry more in cost over the long run.

In terms of immediate cost, it will be much cheaper to use Steam. But you are perhaps referring to longer term intangible costs.

 

[White Elk]

The choice to use Steamworks was a decision by both 2K and Firaxis. Although really it's silly to even make a distinction between the two; we're both parts of the same company and we work as closely together as, for example, different groups at Firaxis do. We're all the same team.

Steamworks is a great thing for the developer; it allows them to make a better game. It's a lot like why most people use DirectX or OpenGL instead of writing their own 3d renderer from scratch.

So, even if you don't plan on using the specific features that Steamworks allows the developers to implement very easily (like multiplayer,) it still gets you a better overall game because those features (which would be there no matter what framework, if any, was decided on) took less time to implement.

It's not the features or the decision to go with steamworks that troubles me. It's the unnecessary and unwelcome controls that I have a problem with. I don't think that Firaxis would willingly force these restrictions on its fanbase. And I don't see Firaxis requiring that Civ5 be made digitally exclusive to steam. 2k on the other hand, has an established history for implementing tight controls and limits. steam and 2k appear to share a similar distribution philosophy. It is a philosophy I most emphatically do not accept.

valve did not have to implement steamworks in the way it has. Stardocks, Impulse::Reactor pretty much does what steamworks does.
Yet games using Reactor will not require the client to run for SP games, are vendor neutral, and have what I think to be a more reasonable DRM (GOO).


With Stardocks, Impulse::Reactor

+ Users can resell their games. Users purchase the license to play, not lease it!
+ The client runs ONCE during activation and never needs to run again.
+ Offline mode works as expected: The client does not auto search for updates and then force the download. You can be online, but play offline.
+ It's vendor neutral: If Impulse should cease to exist, any online vendor can validate the game.
+ It's vendor neutral: Developers can utilize Reactors tools without bundling Impulse with their games.
+ It's non-exclusive: Developers using Reactor are free to market their game with any online, and brick and mortar vendor.
+ Users decide when and if they will update their games.
+ Provides in game chat, friends list, MP matchmaking, achievements, ranking and ladders, server navigation, cloud saves, DLC and update distribution, Facebook and Twitter integration, and more.
​

Stardocks method makes sense to me. It shows the customer a level of respect that I appreciate. I accept it without reservation. It works, its friendly, its proper, it doesn't get in my way. I respect it. valves method I do not accept nor respect.

If Reactor can do all that without running the client, why can't steamworks? Is forcing the steam client to run, really just about collecting data on its users? They use our system resources, and consume our bandwidth so they can gain some marketing and demographic data? I bet 2k would love to get their hands on data like this. Is this why there was an agreement to make Civ5 a steam exclusive digital release? I don't know. I think it a possibility, but with no facts we can't say it is so. Whatever the case, none of this sounds like a Firaxian thing. But it does sound like 2k. I don't know. What I do know is that I don't like the direction that 2k has taken Civ. I wish Firaxis was partenered with an outfit like Stardock.

 

[Senethro]

Oh come on, its playground enough already in here without sinking to posting gimmicks like small font sizes.

 

[Cataphract887]

Its amusing to read this thread, i remember when i was naive and innocent enough to get upset about some game and its company. Ill wait till the game comes out, examine the mechanics of playing it, and make a decision then...

 

[pleasenoname]

I didn't think I was complaining.
I just stated my experience with steam, DRM and my own position.

I love Firaxis.
We need to acknowledge the team of guys that work on projects. Read the credits next time and pick out a guy who worked on a part of the game you really liked. Some guys follow basketball and keep track of the players and give them recognition.

Greg, hug me, so the Original poster knows that we are brothers.

Firaxis is the developer: They make the game.

2K is the Distibutor: They distribute and market the game.

They seem to be doing alright.

Take 2 is the Corporation that owns them: They have the lawyers, accountants and executives.

I watched the clips of Civ 5 from the internet, I heard of how the capital city can be taken, to conquer the whole civilization. Also I heard the video guy saying that there would be 1 unit formation per tile and I saw the hexagonal tiles. All these concepts looked interesting and I liked how it might be more like chess.

I only share my opinion with people I like. Therefore I mentioned that I won't buy Civ 5, if it has DRM of any kind.

I buy every single game from the store legally. In my opinion, the only people pirating are probably below the poverty line or semi-homeless.

I heard that End War had the DRM removed by the newest patch, so I bought it from new egg for $5.

DRM is actually, probably to prevent resale, because the economy is hurting everyone right now, even the game companies.

I bought Mass Effect from EA as a download. However after a year you can no longer download it and it has Securom. I could not get a refund from EA.
Fortunately, I heard that store bought Mass effect 2 just has the disc check and no DRM.
Bioware apparently is listening to the fans.

Being an American means having free speech and freely expressing our opinions back and forth and not worrying.
I try to be logical and factual in expressing my opinion.
It is not us against the other, a forum is all of us together, discussing the options.

 

[seasnake]

I've only bought one game on steam: Empire Total War.

I downloaded the game and the manual, authenticated once and set it to offline mode. I've been playing it now for 4 months and I've never got back online. I've never had to. The steam program that runs in the background is a negligible amount of RAM.

I want the deluxe edition, so I plan to go into online mode when Civ V comes out, download the game, authenticate it once and then set it to offline mode again. I will never run it in online mode unless I want to patch something or buy an expansion.

It works pretty well so far.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Good lord, I need a drink.

Me too, after reading through most of that.

 

[Avs]

It's not the features or the decision to go with steamworks that troubles me. It's the unnecessary and unwelcome controls that I have a problem with. I don't think that Firaxis would willingly force these restrictions on its fanbase. And I don't see Firaxis requiring that Civ5 be made digitally exclusive to steam. 2k on the other hand, has an established history for implementing tight controls and limits. steam and 2k appear to share a similar distribution philosophy. It is a philosophy I most emphatically do not accept.

valve did not have to implement steamworks in the way it has. Stardocks, Impulse::Reactor pretty much does what steamworks does.
Yet games using Reactor will not require the client to run for SP games, are vendor neutral, and have what I think to be a more reasonable DRM (GOO).


With Stardocks, Impulse::Reactor

+ Users can resell their games. Users purchase the license to play, not lease it!
+ The client runs ONCE during activation and never needs to run again.
+ Offline mode works as expected: The client does not auto search for updates and then force the download. You can be online, but play offline.
+ It's vendor neutral: If Impulse should cease to exist, any online vendor can validate the game.
+ It's vendor neutral: Developers can utilize Reactors tools without bundling Impulse with their games.
+ It's non-exclusive: Developers using Reactor are free to market their game with any online, and brick and mortar vendor.
+ Users decide when and if they will update their games.
+ Provides in game chat, friends list, MP matchmaking, achievements, ranking and ladders, server navigation, cloud saves, DLC and update distribution, Facebook and Twitter integration, and more.
​

Stardocks method makes sense to me. It shows the customer a level of respect that I appreciate. I accept it without reservation. It works, its friendly, its proper, it doesn't get in my way. I respect it. valves method I do not accept nor respect.

If Reactor can do all that without running the client, why can't steamworks? Is forcing the steam client to run, really just about collecting data on its users? They use our system resources, and consume our bandwidth so they can gain some marketing and demographic data? I bet 2k would love to get their hands on data like this. Is this why there was an agreement to make Civ5 a steam exclusive digital release? I don't know. I think it a possibility, but with no facts we can't say it is so. Whatever the case, none of this sounds like a Firaxian thing. But it does sound like 2k. I don't know. What I do know is that I don't like the direction that 2k has taken Civ. I wish Firaxis was partenered with an outfit like Stardock.

We'll there is no distribution platform that is one size fits all. Your point's about Stardock/Impulse are good (I'm not going to spend the time to confirm them as I've never used Stardock). But you're missing major parts about the negotiation and considerations any game publisher will make when choosing which distribution platform to go with.

Rather than list the "selling points of Steam", let's just look at this one point:

Steam (Majority market share)
Impulse
GOG
Direct2Drive
GamersGate
The EA Store

Choosing Steam is more than just a decision between the different flavors (functionality) between each distribution platform. It's about reaching the larger consumer base. It's about getting the bang for the buck. It's about getting the highest returns. Many would love to be able to sell their games on Steam. Developers and publishers however would love to make profits off each game they sell. Frankly, they hate the resellers market because to them its just as bad as piracy or worse (they don't see any of the money and its legal depending on the platform). Developers don't want this to happen. They also want a large customer base that can be reached easily.

The point is, there are all sorts of pros/cons with using either system. At the end of the day, a group of people who work in this business had to consider a thousand more things than simply whether they felt "good" about picking Steam over Impulse or why they should go exclusively with Steam or use Steamworks. The most important thing isn't Steam or greed, its the fact that Civ5 is coming and people are going to buy this game.

 

[Gelvan]

well okay, but if all developers want(ed) to release on steam, one day only steam would prevail, which in turn would mean, that many developers wouldn't get the "chance" to sell on steam, therefore many games never would be published, because Vault just says "no" to a game, they don't want to sell. must not be like that, maybe steam sells everything, but it could happen. it's better to have that list you posted, than to only have steam. hopefully some developers won't use steam because THEY don't like to have a "gateway" between their customers and themselves. well, since you are right about the descicion making process in a profit orientated company (which is true for all companies per se), one day we will have stardock or impulse and steam. a bit like mac and windows. all the ataris, c64 etc. will be gone, and the stardock part will be more about quality while the steam part will be more about the masses.
alas, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Grouchey]

Doing it themselves, as I stated, would not be a bad thing for the reason given (save money).

If developing the capacity themselves rather than using an outside vendor saved them money, they would have done it that way.
Your vague "feeling" that it will save them money is based on what, exactly? Your expertise on software design cost-benefit analysis?

Not sure I agree staying in-house necessarily saves money but I see a foolish rush to outsource all the time at corporations and in the public sector as well. People like to outsource partly because it looks good on a spread sheet or power point -- but then the hidden costs start to pile up and/or there is public outcry about service quality etc.

It's one thing to say that outsourcing will save money or save certain people's time (although both are often proven wrong). It's quite another step to go on as 2K Greg has and assert that it will actually make CIV V a better game. I'd need to see the specifics.

 

[Dermo]

It's quite another step to go on as 2K Greg has and assert that it will actually make CIV V a better game. I'd need to see the specifics.

Particularly the 'how' it makes it a better game, and for who, the player, the single player, the multiplayer, the distributor, the publisher etc. etc.

Hopefully it will be better for everyone.

 

[frekk]

Choosing Steam is more than just a decision between the different flavors (functionality) between each distribution platform. It's about reaching the larger consumer base. It's about getting the bang for the buck. It's about getting the highest returns. Many would love to be able to sell their games on Steam. Developers and publishers however would love to make profits off each game they sell. Frankly, they hate the resellers market because to them its just as bad as piracy or worse (they don't see any of the money and its legal depending on the platform). Developers don't want this to happen.

You're looking at it exclusively from the developer's point of view. That's not the only legitimate concern . . . and as consumers, it isn't our concern *at all*. How often do you see businesses arguing against their own interests in favour of the consumer point of view? Almost never, except perhaps as a marketing gimmick. Why? Simple, they represent their own interest . . . just like consumers are supposed to do, instead of abdicating to the supply-side perspective.

If there are better alternatives to Steam for the consumer, then that is what the consumer should advocate. It's how competition works in the free market: the consumer forces businesses to offer a better deal. They defend their property rights: like the ability to sell their property. And so on.

 

[tom2050]

Unfortunately, most Steam lovers look at it from the developer's point of view, because those are the only arguments in favor of it that can be made (other than you can chat with friends and browse the web; things I can do w/o Steam just as easily).

 

[frekk]

Unfortunately, most Steam lovers look at it from the developer's point of view, because those are the only arguments in favor of it that can be made (other than you can chat with friends and browse the web; things I can do w/o Steam just as easily).

I don't get it ... companies have millions of dollars in advertising budgets to represent their point ... consumers have nothing at all ... why do some consumers think it's the company that needs help representing their position?

 

[pleasenoname]

...
Rather than list the "selling points of Steam", let's just look at this one point:

Steam (Majority market share)
Impulse
GOG
Direct2Drive
GamersGate
The EA Store

... It's about reaching the larger consumer base... It's about getting the highest returns... Developers and publishers however would love to make profits off each game they sell. Frankly, they hate the resellers market because to them its just as bad as piracy or worse (they don't see any of the money and its legal depending on the platform). Developers don't want this to happen. They also want a large customer base that can be reached easily.

The point is, there are all sorts of pros/cons with using either system....The most important thing isn't Steam or greed, its the fact that Civ5 is coming and people are going to buy this game.

If it has DRM, me and a whole bunch of others won't.
Corporations were first founded in colonial times by the Portuguese to extract resources and slaves from africa. Martin Luther King said that," The ghetto is like a domestic colony" taking but never giving back. He also mentioned that rent in the Ghetto was + $90, while in the nice neighborhood it was $78.
As evidenced by BP, there appears to be no moral imperative by corporations to plan for replentishment or repair.

We must provide the moral imperitive; by voting with our check books.
(Ghandi went to the ocean to get salt, rather than buying it from the British and the British boycotted sugar to end slavery)

I see this as a moral issue. The names and vocabulary changes with the time, but the concept remains the same. In ancient China it was called "Legalism". It has also been called facism and totalitarianism. It is a choice between democracy and facism.

Consequently, DRM provides a possible internet accessible backdoor for hackers/enemy combatants. DRM games should not be loaded on computers that go on deployment with servicemen. I've lost family in Iraq, I want everyone to be safe on deployment.

As for outsourcing work, we did that with Japan and then they became more technically advanced then the US (We still don't have many of the mini digital TV's I saw there 2 years ago). We can't even make some of the more advanced stuff anymore because all the equipment and specialists are in Japan( soon to be China).

It might be wise to write the multi-player code yourself [Firaxis], you will be more pleased with the result and gain better knowlege from it.