A case for forum members easing up on 2K a bit

I don't get it ... companies have millions of dollars in advertising budgets to represent their point ... consumers have nothing at all ... why do some consumers think it's the company that needs help representing their position?

Answered it yourself? "millions of dollars in advertising"

One only needs to look at how favourably just about every steam user looks at steam specials, to see this.

Yesterday I had a look at Steam's weekend special for this weekend. This is an objective comparison I've tried to make without any hint as to whether steam is a good deal or not - it's a comparison with ebay - decide for yourself:


fallout 3 GOTY Edition Buy-it-now 27.03 USD on ebay, includes postage cost in price (I always do that when quoting ebay prices).
Steam: 25USD (50% discount). Regular price is 50USD

Fallout New Vegas
50USD on steam.
74.34USD at ebgames(ripoff retailer) (couldn't find on ebay cos it's not released yet)

TES IV Oblivion:
lowest buy it now price on ebay 24.50USD (includes postage)
Steam: 8.50USD. Regular price is 25USD

TES III Morrowind
ebay: buy it now for 13.52AUD
Steam: 5USD. Usually 20USD

To do these comparisons, I look for lowest buy-it-now prices. In many cases, games can be picked up even cheaper by bidding on cheaper auctions. Buy it now you tend to sacrifice a bit of value for the convenience of buying it now rather than participating in an auction.
 
It goes to show you how Steam can manipulate price on occasion to sucker people to take the bait, hook, line and sinker ... You KNOW companies are constantly studying how people make purchases, the liklihood of getting new members, etc. Valve has Psychologists studying this crap; doing brain jobs on gamers to figure out how to bleed their wallets dry.

Occasionally making something dirt cheap (25% of normal cost) is something packaged goods cannot do. Steam has 'nothing to lose' because they are not actually giving you anything at all; and they can take 'the nothing' away at will.

100% for sure they have vast studies (which retail stores cannot do, or don't provide to individual companies) on exactly who buys what, who buys what when, how they buy it, when they buy, what they buy it with, what games they buy the most, how often they buy, etc... so they can use this purchase information to great advantage to press sales (from dirt cheap products) to make a guarenteed number of additional average sales per new Steam customer.

It's always a matter of averages in such a market. Not a good idea to put all your eggs in one Steam basket.
 
Indeed.

It is usual for anyone who mentions prices and specials on Steam to fail to mention any other low-price retailer or business - a worrying sign IMO. Instead they tend to quote prices from ripoff retailers like ebgames, almost as if they are trying to justify their actions be cherry picking the competition. And surely people who are savvy enough to use Steam would be savvy enough to use ebay. In fact, one of the easiest payment methods that can be used with Steam - Paypal - is a service provided by and owned by ebay. Maybe Steam users just love too much the convenience of being able to get a game today rather than in a few days by post.
I for one, think getting the game box, disc and manual can in many cases be worth waiting a few more days for. :)

Most of the evidence I have looked for indicates that in general steam prices are usually unfair, yet at sale times drop to levels that are either competitive or bargain. The thing is, figuring out whether the sale price is "competitive" or "bargain" rarely depends on the size of the discount (even 75%-off sales on Steam sometimes only represent a competitive price - not a bargain).

Manipulating Steam users in to taking advantage of specials probably has some psychological advantage like reinforcing a repetitive behaviour. I'm no expert on this, but keeping customers hooked up and examining the fluctuations in your prices (by spotting sales) I'm pretty sure would be a very effective marketing strategy. From my own experience, when I'm constantly monitoring the price of a good, I'm much more likely to pick it up when it goes through a rapid reduction in price, especially if that price reduction is for a limited time. It is exactly what Valve/Steam seem to favour. Very clever, IMO.
 
Valve has Psychologists studying this crap; doing brain jobs on gamers to figure out how to bleed their wallets dry.

You gotta hand it to them: they are really really good at what they do.

Even Karl Marx didn't question the absolute right of the owner when it came to simple consumables like a book or garment (only capital and land). These guys want to be able to still control the use of the consumable after they've already sold it, and even to be able to take it back if a customer breaks company rules using their own property they've already paid for!

Now that's some awesome marketing ... selling the consumer property that carries fewer rights than history's most famous critic of private property advocated, and getting them to like it! :lol:
 
Steamworks is a great thing for the developer; it allows them to make a better game.

It might be better for the developer but it sucks for alot of players. And that should be the main concern. As long as Steam is mandatory, I simply won't be buying the game.
 
Sorry, I was just providing a point of view since it works both ways no matter how much you want to argue about it. It's just as important as the consumer's point of view. Like everyone else pointed out, don't buy the game if this where the line is drawn. However, like everyone else standing on their soapbox, if you want to convince everyone NOT to buy the game, you'll find someone who's going to convince others to disregard what you have to say.
 
It's just as important as the consumer's point of view.

Not to consumers, it isn't.

if you want to convince everyone NOT to buy the game, you'll find someone who's going to convince others to disregard what you have to say.

The company has an advertising budget for that. They don't need any help. The consumer, as I've said, has nothing at all. THe company doesn't need the help of consumers to promote the developer's interests. If it does, it must be trying to pull a fast one and needs all the help it can get to do it. If it was an awesome deal for consumers, they wouldn't have too many critics to worry about. But it's not and they do.

With no one else on their side, and no millions in advertising, consumers need to vigilantly promote their own interests, not anybody else's. If you think it is an awesome deal, you should be able to make a case for it from the consumer's point of view. If the only good arguments for it come from the developer's pov, then obviously, it's a bad deal for the consumer and they shouldn't buy it, and instead reward competitors who offer a better deal. That way, the best and most competitive rise to the top, and the flawed adapt or die.
 
Not to consumers, it isn't.



The company has an advertising budget for that. They don't need any help. The consumer, as I've said, has nothing at all. THe company doesn't need the help of consumers to promote the developer's interests. If it does, it must be trying to pull a fast one and needs all the help it can get to do it. If it was an awesome deal for consumers, they wouldn't have too many critics to worry about. But it's not and they do.

With no one else on their side, and no millions in advertising, consumers need to vigilantly promote their own interests, not anybody else's. If you think it is an awesome deal, you should be able to make a case for it from the consumer's point of view. If the only good arguments for it come from the developer's pov, then obviously, it's a bad deal for the consumer and they shouldn't buy it, and instead reward competitors who offer a better deal. That way, the best and most competitive rise to the top, and the flawed adapt or die.

You make a really good argument except you continue to disregard developers views when they are pretty much 50% of this entire debate. One thing: People who want to play Civilization 5 and beyond will buy this game, and enjoy it. It is entertainment after all. It's not life or death. Oh yeah, and speculating that the company is out there to spread lies isn't exactly the best way of dealing with this in an unbiased way.

It sounds like you are all for the little guy. You need to understand that Companies are run by people too, and those people are also the people just like you. You are free to disagree with that, but I urge you to think about it on both sides of the coin if you want to keep pressing this issue.
 
Not just because I like being contrarian, but also because I can't stand being painted as some kind of whacko for expecting capitalists to do something to earn their money, I've got to pick this apart.

First off, regarding DRM: Tough. We as a gaming community brought it on ourselves through the active and passive acceptance of illegal file sharing. Say what you want about how information wants to be free, and greedy corporations, and how you shouldn't have to pay high prices for crappy games, and I'll come back with the Humble Bundle, where some indy game developers combined their packages and allowed you to choose your price from their download site, despite the separate price of these games being $80. You had to pay -something- even if it was just a penny, but the point is you got to decide the price. What happened? The average price paid came to less than $10, and over 25% of the downloads were stolen directly from the site, meaning not only was the hard work of the staff involved with each game not compensated for their work, but their work was stolen using their own resources and bandwidth.

Wow, listen to the RIAA's version of history 24/7 much, do ya?

I never heard of a single one of those games. I don't care if someone SAYS they're all their best-selling games, the same can be said for the huge C&C series, which I didn't enjoy. High ratings means I might give it a shot, not a guarantee that I'll like it.

Since these games were so popular, it stands to reason that many people who bought the bundle already had some or most of the games and didn't feel like paying a lot for them.

$80 may be the retail price, but don't confuse that with it's value. A thing is worth what a customer will pay.

How much effort did they spend to prove it was worth more than the electrons needed to acquire it? I wasn't made aware of any of it. Why would I get the "gotta havit" feeling when it wasn't advertised much?

Did they suggest an $80 donation, or did they just say "we sell these for $20 apiece"? With that kind of marketing, $10 apiece should make them ecstatic!

And how do you know 25% of downloaders "stole" the game? Is it possible that the overwhelming majority of those downloaders discovered the games were not to their taste? You know, grocery stores put samples out all the time, and they don't go broke because of it, they actually make additional sales from people not willing to spend $10 on a whole package of something they've never tried before. But not everyone buys. Call the cops!

How many of those were re-downloads, caused by bad connections or people who already paid just getting a copy for a second computer?

An unpaid download =/= a lost sale. Stop being so RIAA.

A low income =/= a bunch of freeloaders, it means you did a lousy job of selling me. Put ANYTHING up for sale for whatever anyone wants to pay, as long as they don't have to worry about limited supply, you'll find people will grab anything that's free even if they never actually use it. The only reason the 1 cent auctions work on ebay is because of limited supply. Offer something for a penny no one wants and it might not sell unless you also pay shipping.

I agree, there's a LOT of people out there ruining it for everyone, but what it shows is NOT that you should beat the tar out of your dwindling loyal customer base with lies and DRM schemes and haphazard agreements, it means you need to figure out how to compete with "free". Stardock has a great solution: give away the full, uncrippled game to get people hooked, then require paid registration for updates and add-ons; only the people who would've bought the game use your bandwidth. I hate subscription models, but those work too, when done right. Special treats in the form of physical objects work well (collector's tin, autographed manual, whatever).

There are tons of ways game makers can make money without raping their customers or addicting them to things and then forcing crap down their throats to get their fixes.

I think it's been made clear that Steam costs more than it's worth, but here's an illustration.

I used to drive a truck. My company bought into some fly-by-night directions company. Made it all but impossible to get good directions to where we had to make deliveries. The old system was accurate and darn good, but because someone got sold on that new system, us drivers had to contend with an unnecessarily tougher job that took longer to accomplish trying to get hold of usable directions. It was supposed to make the drivers' lives easier, but no one asked us if it did. They bought it because on paper it looked like there was a savings to be had, but in reality there were a lot of hidden costs. Experienced drivers got frustrated with it and quit. Then the influx of less-experienced drivers needed higher insurance costs and got in more accidents. Everyone made more late deliveries, wasted more gas trying to find addresses, more customers were lost due to declining service level, etc. A disaster. If they hadn't already been ripping off their drivers, they'd've gone under.

Steam is the same bill of goods. It had a short term savings, but in the long run it's going to lose money due to increasing customer frustration, just like using increasingly invasive and destructive DRM is like skeet-shooting your customer base. Maybe in Microsoft's case where you had like 99% of your users not paying it was okay to burn half your user base to get the other half to pay up, but the losses on game piracy aren't that big.

If I don't like Civ5, can I get a refund? Can I get my computer restored to its original condition before installation, with Steam fully removed too? Can I get back the 24+ hours of my life it'll take to download and install the game? I'd say it's all a big NO. So I'm not interested in Steam either.
 
I haven't yet seen any hard evidence that Steam is actually that difficult to remove from your computer if you no longer want it. However I do use a (free) program called Revo Uninstaller, myself, which helps remove any extra crap files or registry left-overs. Maybe if you use the standard uninstaller it leaves some things behind?
 
You make a really good argument except you continue to disregard developers views when they are pretty much 50% of this entire debate.

No. The developers are producing a product for the consumer. That makes the consumer's views worth 100% of the issue.

It is entertainment after all. It's not life or death.

Precisely. And since there are so many forms of entertainment in today's world, I don't need to spend my money on a product I don't agree with. My life is not about to end just because I don't get the latest version of some computer game.
 
You make a really good argument except you continue to disregard developers views when they are pretty much 50% of this entire debate.

No, their viewpoint isn't relevant to a buyer. It's relevant to them, and that's it. To the buyer there is only the product. If they can't deliver a good product, their problems are none of the consumer's concerns; he goes to a competitor.

People who want to play Civilization 5 and beyond will buy this game, and enjoy it.

I want to play Civilization 5 and I will not buy it. Seems plenty of other people are saying the same thing.

It is entertainment after all. It's not life or death.

So it's ok to treat game consumers like crap because it's not a necessity? A company with that kind of attitude - or rather, one that fosters this kind of attitude by proxy - isn't getting my money.

You need to understand that Companies are run by people too, and those people are also the people just like you. You are free to disagree with that, but I urge you to think about it on both sides of the coin if you want to keep pressing this issue.

If this were an issue of charity, objectivity would be warranted.

But it's a purchasing decision, a business decision. I'm not bound to take into account the bank's problems and excuses when I'm shopping around for a loan, or look out for what's best for the bank. I'm going to get the loan that's best for me, and the bank that offers it, wins my business. The bank that goes on about how difficult it is for them and makes excuses for an inferior offer, doesn't get my business. I'm not out to help them. And if somebody came along and told me that the loan from the bank with the inferior deal is better because the bank makes more money, and I should think about the people at the bank, what do you think I should think of that? That's a plea for charity, not my business.
 
Bit late here but its worth pointing out that most of Steam's non-Valve prices are set by the publisher for that game. If you think the price on Steam is bad and it never goes on sale, its usually the publishers fault.
 
I agree with frekk, that in the end, this is about the customers' viewpoint. Of course, you can argue why the publisher and developers made a decision on how to distribute their product, but in the long run, this argument is moot if it is being met by anger by its targeted consumer base.

Steam, as a digital distribution service with its integrated community system, is better for multiplayer games than for singleplayer games. Especially in terms of usage and distribution. I, personally, would have thought Gamers Gate would have been a more appropriate digital distributor for Civ5.

That being said, I see a lot of FUD being spread about Steam. And in both directions. Steam is hardly as intrusive and strict as many naysayers will have you believe. But it is not a walk in the park either as its yes men want you to believe.

But, unfortunately, Steam as a digital distributor with a community integrated system is the only one of its kind in existence. Of course, you'd argue, 'well, that shouldn't be a problem with Civ5, it doesn't need that'. And I agree. But Gamers Gate, Direct 2 Disc and GOG.com for that matter, aren't exactly big names when it comes to distribution, so 2K Games probably went with the easy choice and picked Steam.

And hey, then they didn't have to write a DRM scheme themselves. Because you would probably have hated that as much as you hate Steam, if not more. ;)
 
Svip,
Out of curiosity, because I don't know, do these other digital distributors provide similar things as what Steam does? In particular, things like DLC, achievements, user profiles etc.?
 
Svip,
Out of curiosity, because I don't know, do these other digital distributors provide similar things as what Steam does? In particular, things like DLC, achievements, user profiles etc.?

They do not. They have a user profile, but nothing that ties your gaming with this. You just purchase a game there and then can download it whenever you want to.

Gamers Gate have some level of DRM, depending on the publishers. But GOG.com's game are DRM free, and you can distribute them between computers and friends as you see fit. However, they are 'old' games, meaning from 1980 to 2005. I purchased Caesar III from there. GOG.com makes old games compatible with modern operating systems as best as they can.
 
It goes to show you how Steam can manipulate price on occasion to sucker people to take the bait

Wow! How horrible and Evil; Steam sometimes has sales with extremely cheap prices for their products. Sometimes cheaper than you can find anywhere else, sometimes not. What scheming bastards.

Just imagine if *other* companies started using this vile tool of the "sale price". We'd have large department stores and supermarkets advertising their sale products in order to try to get you into their store.

The horror, the horror....
 
No need to dramatise it Ahriman. I don't think even tom called them evil.

People have been mentioning how much they love steam specials, on occasion in this forum. It's only fitting to point out that most of the time the prices are quite poor, at sales time the prices can be only competitive or a bargain depending on the game. It doesn't mean we want you to hate steam because it doesn't always have the best prices.

If I had supermarket advertising or department store advertising embedded in software I needed for running my games, I would be just as critical of that too. We're not painting Steam as evil. Just pointing out /reminding that it is a very clever marketing tool and obviously an effective money maker. I'd even go so far to say it's probably the most effective converter of pirates (in this case I mean the people who illegally download the games) into paying customers. Two sides to the coin. ;)
 
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