A Catholic's rant

[Archbob]

Civ General

I am Catholic myself (dough I havent had a wafer for a decade (them sins are piling up)).
I once asked an Orthodox chick what was the main thing that set orthodox christians apart from catholics. She said that the orthodox churche does not allow you to get your sins absolved by paying money.

I bet it was her priest who told her that gem.

Well those years of allowing people to buy indulgences to absolve sins a few hundreds years back, its hard to get rid of a history like that. That was one of the main reasons for the protestant reformation.

And CG thats a bad reason to not keep an open minds, many things that the Catholic church once considered Heretical have been proven correct by later science. God wants us to discover the truth and that required an open mind to some extent. The Catholic Church considered it heretical to think the earth revolved around the sun once and imprisoned Galileo for it, only to apologize over 400 years later and to admit "hi, it wasn't so heretical after all." God is infallible, the church is not. You'd have to ignore alot of history to say that the church(whether Catholic or Protestant) is infallible. In fact, its just plain ignorant now to think that.

In all of creation only God is always right and infallible, not the Catholic Church, the Orthodox church, any of the protestant denominations, or anyone else. Just to believe what any church says without thinking about it is ignorant. Remember many clergymen have different and ungodly motives. They are human, not divine.

 

[Octavian X]

I take the view that there will always be ignorance in the world, for better or for worse. I've been lucky to this point, I guess, as I haven't run into anyone with the more, ahem, absurb, assumptions about the Catholic faith.

Even if I did, I just accept the fact that there are some very, VERY stupid people in the world. I'll do what I can to educate people about it, but it just isn't practical to be worried and defensive about it all the time. Besides, if I were to make it my mission on Earth to end ignorance of something, I'd probably start with something important, like evolution (some people need Biology 101 more than they need ending misconceptions about the Pope).

 

[Pokurcz]

FAL

Well thats history for you, full of od events that you can learn from to improve as a person and as an organization.

And that is what happened, after having a religious monopoly over most of Europe for centuries the catholic church was forced to see that it had to reform and cleaned up their act.

Now if a person has a view of a slightly different faith based on over five hundred years obselete information, then that person has a problem.
Mainly with their source of info and with being a gullible sob and not taking their time to aquire some up to date intelligence about their "advesary".

I blame the clergy, only they can have a mindset on bs like that and have something to win with spreading it. I for one do expect a litle more from a man of the cloth, be it superhumanity or whatever you wish to call it.

I'm sensing quite a bit of protestant bias from you for all of your talk about keeping an open mind.

 

[Sidhe]

Well those years of allowing people to buy indulgences to absolve sins a few hundreds years back, its hard to get rid of a history like that. That was one of the main reasons for the protestant reformation.

And CG thats a bad reason to not keep an open minds, many things that the Catholic church once considered Heretical have been proven correct by later science. God wants us to discover the truth and that required an open mind to some extent. The Catholic Church considered it heretical to think the earth revolved around the sun once and imprisoned Galileo for it, only to apologize over 400 years later and to admit "hi, it wasn't so heretical after all." God is infallible, the church is not. You'd have to ignore alot of history to say that the church(whether Catholic or Protestant) is infallible. In fact, its just plain ignorant now to think that.

In all of creation only God is always right and infallible, not the Catholic Church, the Orthodox church, any of the protestant denominations, or anyone else. Just to believe what any church says without thinking about it is ignorant. Remember many clergymen have different and ungodly motives. They are human, not divine.

You can't argue the pope as being infallible in any way shape or form logically but that is an issue for another thread. I too think it is balsphemous to assume the power of God in any form, that is the power to be infallible, the bible chastises against arrogance and it also tells us that only three people have ever been truly perfect, or beyond wordly concerns. I think you know who or what I mean

Roman Catholic elitism(the message only being available to the rich because catholics refused to alow the bible to be translated into English or whatever language it should have been read in, thus only rich educated people could recieve God's wisdom) And greed sewed the seeds of the Schism, could there ever be a reformation? Probably not, theologians on the protestant side are still keenly aware of what lead to schism in the first place, and as usual catholics are incredibly slow in admitting fault for their actions, probably being still blinded by papal infalibility, as odd as that notion seems almost to the point of ignorance, this is also a sore point, why should a church be dictated to by one single infallible King? Catholicism isn't democratic, so most likely it will never come together into one, as it's internal structure is out of kilter with the modern world.

Interestingly after Copernicus proved that the Earth went round the Sun and not the other way round it took the Church over a hundred years to even make any acknowledgement, and hundreds more to overtly change the message, which was in itself a misinterpritation of OT scripture.

 

[Oerdin]

Civ General

Did CHrist mention the 144 thousand limit that jehovas witneses seem to promote?

What ever, my point was that you have to prefere a part of the bible and not pay heed to an other one for churches do be dissimilar.


I am Catholic myself (dough I havent had a wafer for a decade (them sins are piling up)).
I once asked an Orthodox chick what was the main thing that set orthodox christians apart from catholics. She said that the orthodox churche does not allow you to get your sins absolved by paying money.

I bet it was her priest who told her that gem.

Actually buying Papal Indulgences was a major cause of the Protestant Reformation. The Catholic Church dropped that around 1600 though so it sounds like your girl friend was a bit behind the times.

 

[Pokurcz]

Oerdin

I know, but thank you for your time.

 

[CurtSibling]

@ CivG, Curt, Tycoon, etc: Wow. Many of the posters in this thread have said they don't like listening to other people's opinions. Why don't you find it worthwhile to keep an open mind? I've found that listening to what other people have to say is perhaps the greatest way to self-improvement, wisdom, and growth. Open-mindedness is worth bending over backward for, even if people don't like what you have to say. In my experience, the growth that you recieve is extremely valuable.

You talk as it we are aliens from another planet. Do you think you are speaking to stunted toddlers here?

Sorry, but you religionists really annoy with this appallingly smug attitude.

You are just as close-minded when the situation suits.

It is that style of patronising aloofness that makes me not wish to listen to the opinions of someone like you.

You really have to work on that arrogance.

I can't be bothered listening to you now.

.

 

[CurtSibling]

1. How can a dead person intercede for a living one?

2. Are the intercessions by Mary or saints, more powerful than that of Jesus?

Well, isn't Jesus is dead also?

.

 

[Sidhe]

Well, isn't Jesus is dead also?

.

Ressurection, no just in heaven, a subtle but important difference.

 

[Pokurcz]

Sidhe

Well at least the catcholics never allowed bigamy as some protestants did, and everybody free from sin is welcome in heaven unlike the Jehovas Witneses who only allow 144 thousand.
The calvinists only let certain predetermined people to be absolved from sin and further every human born is "enslaved to the service of sin", seems rather condemning and elitist I'd say for one of the main protestant faiths.

Further more the catholics stopped burning witches earlyer then some protestants who went on mainly in the states.

There is a lot of "obvious" bs claimed and done by both "sides" so stop feeling so blody superior.

 

[Sidhe]

IIRC correctly Catholicism only allows those who have recieved Jesus' message or were never given the opportunity to, whilst it accepts other fatihs like most of the Christian religions, it makes exceptions for those who have heard the message but wont except Jesus as their personal saviour. So you can be "perfectly" good and pure - if such a state exists - and still be denied. It's not quite as welcoming as you believe.

And BTW as an agnostic I never claim I'm superior just that I can see all sides and all religions equally on there merits. It's not a bad place to be.

 

[Pokurcz]

Sidhe

"So you can be "perfectly" good and pure - if such a state exists - and still be denied."
That is also the case with most protestant faiths.

That is why I never go to church, being an agnostic and all myself...

BTW being an agnostic is no insurance for seing "all sides and all religions equally on there merits", you can still be tainted by your religious upbringing or the "culture" you where brought up by.

 

[Sidhe]

We're batting on the same team here.

I agree my religous upbringing(OK it was my own choice brought up in a distinclty atheist familly as I saw it then) But it can influence me, I certainly have been influenced by it in the past but I learnt to look a little deeper as I grew up, I hope I've grown and looked into religion enough to make impartial decisions, if not then I've still more to learn. It's all good

My culture is very secular by the way. I have one or two Christian friends but they are very liberal compared to the views I see from some.

 

[Paradigne]

1. Because the Christian communion is a communion of all souls, living and dead.

2. Of course not. Nothing other than the Christ could bridge the gap between finite beings and infinite glory. But I think that you're not looking at Catholic devotions in the right way-- you're conflating two separate pictures. There are Catholics who pray to St. Stephen to cure their headaches and who carry St. Christopher medallions in their cars. That's superstitious nonsense, like as not, but some people-- of all groups-- put faith in it because it helps them get through the day, or because they sincerely believe it to be true. Some Protestants pray for God to make them rich, some atheists knock on wood. Fine, no real harm done, unless the signposts of truth should obscure truth and subvert faith in it. I think that believing in sacred relics, or praying for any change in reality for that matter, falls into that category (I could be wrong, but I think it unlikely).

The other picture of Catholic devotions is very different, and that is that one who prays to the Blessed Virgin, or to a saint, both invites closer communion between himself and a pure Christian soul, and asks that Christian soul to pray for him. I do not see that either is in principle idolatrous: a Catholic desires closer communion with the saints because they are devout, because they are nearer to the holy than most, because he knows that they are much farther along the road he walks than he himself is. Prayer to saints is really prayer to the Power which lies behind them, and faith in that Power, and recognition that the glory which blazes in the face of a saint is the same as the hidden fire in men's hearts, and active yearning for that glory.

Well said... thanks