A Guide to Playing “Small” on Deity (feat. Piety)

[zxcvbob]

I started a game like this last night. Standard Pangaea map, or maybe it's "Pangaea plus." Emperor level, Ethiopia. My neighbors are the Celts, Inca, Aztecs, and farther away the Netherlands, and I just met India. The hitch is, I've only found one CS which is already allied to Netherlands. I think I'm going to have to research Astronomy before I can find any more CS's. I have converted all the Dutch cities and the CS, and one of Boudicca's cities and one of Monty's converted themselves from pressure (then Monty declared war on Boudicca and burned down that city; one of the only ones in range of my caravans.

My faith output is so high, I'm auto-buying missionaries every 3 turns. I have no place to send them, so I'm just stocking up before the price goes up -- but incurring GPT maintenance costs. I should have taken Tithe instead of Papal Primacy.

Everybody hates Boudicca because she is converting the cities of AI's that have religions. I'm friends with everyone, including her -- even tho' I declared war on her earlier along with Pachacuti but I never attacked, just fortified a few units just outside her border. She hasn't even sent any missionaries in my direction (not yet anyway) The friends with everyone thing is kind of new... it's eerie.

William just built Hagia Sophia, but I think he's too late to found a religion.

I have 3 cities and about 5 or 6 luxuries. Most are just one copy but I have *lots* of wine. I wish I had more gold (that will come later; all the AI's are broke too) The barbarians have been brutal even though "raging barbs" is turned off, so I took one policy in Honor to keep them from eating me alive. Killed so many, I don't think it really slowed me down getting to the reformation. Now I'm working on the Patronage tree, but maybe should have taken Commerce instead.

Goddess of Festivals, Papal Primacy, Monasteries, Religious Texts (or was it Unity?), and Evangelism. I've never taken Evangelism before, it's strong!

I think I need to build National College soon and beeline Astronomy. William ought to be very helpful spreading my religion via trade routes.

 

[zxcvbob]

I have three little cities in the corner of the map. I haven't expanded towards anybody. Been friendly. Open borders with everyone, DoF's with most. I have researched Industrialization, but I've only built 2 factories because I don't want an ideology yet.

I built the national college, workshops, ironworks, and eventually got around to universities. Got more great prophets than I meant to; just settled holy sites with them (holy sites are really good tiles with the Piety finisher) So many missionaries sitting around with nothing to do, until I could upgrade my trireme to a caravel and find the CS's. I've spread my religion to all of them that I've found so far, there's still a few hiding from me.

Pachacuti backstabbed me; we had a DoF and he declared war. I bribed Monty to declare war on him and suddenly he wanted a peace deal; wanted me to give him all my cities and all my gold. I said "no, how about we both just walk away" and he agreed. Monty actually roughed him up a bit but didn't capture any cities. I started ramping up my military a bit. Pachacuti came back a couple of turns later and wanted to exchange embassies. His status was "Friendly" I'm still researching (and stealing) military techs.

Meanwhile, one of the AI's tells me Monty is plotting against me. My spy tells me the same thing a couple of turns later. Monty and Pachacuti settle a truce, and Pachacuti immediately declares war on me again. This time he's only a little stronger than me. I bribed Suleiman to declare war, but he never sent a single unit into battle (he just stole my money and 2 luxuries)

I've been killing more of his units than he's been killing mine. His units are experienced and mine are not, so I'm losing more than I'd like. But now Pachacuti has the smallest (by far) military in the game and I'm middle-of-the-pack. I'm also the only one with artillery (burned Oxford for that). Pachacuti wants peace but I've refused all his offers. I want him dead.

I think I'll capture the one city that he forward-settled at me (it has silver), and then stop advancing but refuse all peace offers. I'll use him for target practice to level-up my units, and when he's weak enough Monty or Suleiman will kill him on their own.

William founded the world congress, and I've voted for him every time there's been a vote for host. I've proposed popular resolutions, and I've voted for all of his (even if I didn't really like them) He still hasn't made the world religion proposal yet; I don't think he's going to.

This is not the peaceful game I thought I was getting into. But it has been interesting. Piety holds its own against Liberty and Tradition, you just spend a lot longer in the medieval era.

 

[beetle]

Piety holds its own against Liberty and Tradition, you just spend a lot longer in the medieval era.

I will be interested to read if you still feel that way as the game progresses. Is your game at Deity? My experiments were fun, but I was not able to convert religious dominance into a DiploVC. I was not very gold focused though, as I trying for something other than buy-up-all-the-CS-one-turn-before-the-vote. My tech was so far behind, there was no option to pivot to SV (and CV always seems out of reach).

 

[zxcvbob]

I will be interested to read if you still feel that way as the game progresses.

Me too!

I'm playing at Emperor -- that's the level I just recently moved up to and still struggle with a bit. This particular map would have been a challenge for me with any strategy because of the CS placements. I'm about as late in the Industrial era as you can be w/o picking an ideology, and I'm still having GPT problems -- unit maintenance on all the missionaries I stockpiled while they were cheap, and the army I had to raise up in a hurry. Commerce, and especially a free policy from the Worlds Fair, turned things around for me. Also I used up a bunch of the missionaries when I found a pocket of CS's (I still have quite a few)

I might be in a similar situation if I'd gone Tradition/Commerce/Rationalism, but I would still have Oxford to use for Radio, Plastics, or Satellites. And I'd be able to faith-buy GE's. I went Piety/Patronage/Commerce, and haven't quite finished Commerce yet. I've gotten a few nice great people already from the CS's. The MoV came along just when I really needed cash to buy an army.

This is probably about to transition to a domination game instead of diplomatic. The early peacefulness that I said seemed eerie was a trap all along. One complication is that William is friends with both me and Pachacuti, and didn't seem the least bit concerned when he backstabbed me. William might turn against me when I take one of the Inca cities, even tho' we share a religion and I backed him in the world congress.

BTW, Boudicca and Harun are dead already, so I'm doing a lot better than they did.

 

[zxcvbob]

William never did make the world religion proposal so eventually I made it myself. Monty and Suleiman hate me already, Pachacuti is irrelevant (the only reason he's not dead is I surrounded his last city with my units when Monty was sieging it -- I had a research agreement about to finish and didn't want to lose it). Gandhi likes me, and this will be the only negative modifier so he'll overlook it.

I will win a diplomatic victory eventually, but it's going to take several more tries to get it. I don't have enough money to buy out the last few CS's in time for the next vote (wars are expensive) but I might can stage enough coups for the one after that.

 

[zxcvbob]

I won a diplomatic victory on turn 431 with 46 votes (40 needed). I had the largest military, most gold (I faith bought a bunch of GM's near the end, and had a couple of puppets churning out GPT; one of them had Machu Picchu and 2 customs houses), the most happiness, and was only 1 technology behind the leaders. It was a fun game. It was not a peaceful game. There were 3 or 4 piety AI's, but we actually got along okay, I didn't expect that.

Boudicca really screwed up by converting Monty's and Pachacuti's cities. Harun screwed up by forward-settling at Suleiman. Pachacuti screwed up by backstabbing me; the war left him weak and then Suleiman and Monty pounced.

BTW, I didn't buy all the CS's right at the end. I slowly accumulated all of them by having 35 base influence to start with, using spies, doing quests (especially trade routes and "calls for faith"), and occasionally throwing them a little gold. I usually monopolize the CS's with Treaty Organization or Gunboat Diplomacy but I was only 2 tenets into Freedom this time.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

Nice game - I noticed you said it was tough to get trade gold in the early game. That is actually one of the advantages to playing higher levels (especially Deity), the AI has a lot more gold.

 

[DrCron]

I won my first diety game as Venice. It was similar to what's described here, only I just had 1 city + 2 CS bought as puppets. But it was basically this mechanic:

- Be small.
- Get a religion and as much gold as possible.
- Don't DOW anyone. Bribe the AI to fight each other constantly.
- Eventually win a diplomatic victory with a very low score.

I agree that it's a good way to start in Diety, it was a very easy win and the AI crazy deity expansion didn't affect me. It was small continents, I had 2 neighbors in my continent: Spain and Inca, that I constantly bribed to DOW each other. Spain took 2 Incan cities, so I bribed Isabella to DOW a few other CIVs, just to make sure she didn't attack me. It worked. I won diety with zero wars, and an army of about 5 units total (not always upgraded).

 

[beetle]

I still think this strategy works better using Tradition rather than Piety, for Venice or any civ.

- Be small.
- Get a religion and as much gold as possible.
- Don't DOW anyone. Bribe the AI to fight each other constantly.
- Eventually win a diplomatic victory with a very low score.

Yes, that is a reliable recipe for winning at Deity. But the only thing Piety helps with is getting someone else to propose World Religion in the WC. But (1) the gambit is not that reliable, (2) you don't need it for DiploV anyway, and (3) you give up so much by passing on Tradition. Plus, (4) you can always propose World Religion yourself once you have the votes locked up.

 

[Acken]

It seems you're seeing the light beetle

 

[beetle]

I don't think I was ever much of advocate for this strategy. I am sympathetic to OPs goal of providing for “Deity players who want to try something new” and I defended the premise.

I would love a recipe for winning at Deity despite opening piety -- and would be fine for Diplo for that -- but this guide did not do it for me.

Also, I think playing small (i.e., keeping out of the AI way) and winning by diplo is reasonable for “Non-Deity players looking to break into the difficulty”. I am just not understanding how Piety makes that goal easier than harder.

But my Deity play is relatively weak in any case. I can win Deity by Dom or by peaceful CV -- and my SV are usually after T325. So there is plenty I could stand to learn!

 

[claudiupb]

Diplo victory is simply broken, and if you want to win by 2nd or 3rd vote all you have to do is not die and keep alliances with the city states. You do need some science but generally you will reach Globalization by 3rd world leader vote. If you want to win at first vote and achieve this as fast as possible, it becomes a challenge.

Any strategy involving a lazy diplo, letting the AI reach info era to trigger the World Leader vote while you struggle behind and you are just small enough to not be in anyone's way is not really a good one. At best it's a fun way to play.

In this case Piety helps spread your religion, and if you have warmonger neighbors they will generally not focus on religion and if you manage to spread yours to them early on, you may start with friendly relationships and use those warmongers to keep others busy with cheap war bribes. If you are lucky they might propose world religion and you get 2 votes without annoying anyone while getting diplo points towards threatening neighbors. Other than that it really doesn't matter what SPs you take.

 

[DrCron]

Diplo victory is simply broken, and if you want to win by 2nd or 3rd vote all you have to do is not die and keep alliances with the city states. You do need some science but generally you will reach Globalization by 3rd world leader vote. If you want to win at first vote and achieve this as fast as possible, it becomes a challenge.

In the Venice diplo victory I mentioned above I won the first vote, and it wasn't a challenge (and I didn't even have Forbidden Palace). I played Tradition though, not Piety. But it was definitely easy, despite the fact that I was never the science leader.

But I do agree that Diplo victory is kind of broken. It feels more like an economic victory than a diplomatic one.

 

[Acken]

The problem with it is that it can be triggered by the AI which is not competitive over it. That's what is broken.
Your own strength and tech advancement can sometimes not even be important as you don't always need Globalization. And if you do it's usually an auto win at that point
and
The AI doesn't fight for city states and doesn't care if someone if close to a DV. It's basically hard coded that an AI will never spend money on a CS that it cannot ally with a 500 gold gift.

 

[peddroelm]

.. It's basically hard coded that an AI will never spend money on a CS that it cannot ally with a 500 gold gift.

Imagine the horror if were otherwise... AIs dumping their huge stacks raising all CSs above 1k influence points leaving NO CS accessible to the player. You play Austria/Siam/Hreece (sorry no CS to use your UA on) . Patronage ? A useless policy tree to dump policies if you manage to have more culture you know what to do with (good luck with that with no culture CS). Finally a world in which mongolian military bonuses vs CS states become relevant. All high level plays I've seen revolve around quickly enslaving most of the CS.

 

[stormtrooper412]

which is why I'd either completely remove gold gifts to city states or implement a hard cap after which the influence doesn't change anymore

 

[beetle]

It's basically hard coded that an AI will never spend money on a CS that it cannot ally with a 500 gold gift.

Thanks for that insight. I was wondering what the threshold was. In my games with Alex, he is clearly spending money on CS. So if I get more spendy -- getting 30+ points of CS influence ahead of him -- I should see him back off?

Imagine the horror if were otherwise... AIs dumping their huge stacks raising all CSs above 1k influence points leaving NO CS accessible to the player.

That is insightful too. Players complaining about the AI sitting on huge piles of cash are not thinking through the implications. The developers buffed the AI advantages (which apply from T0) but then put some in some late-game fire breaks (no rush buying buildings, not spending more than 500 gold for CS ally). That was a very good play decision from a game design perspective. Sure, the balancing act could have been more clever and subtle -- but I think this aspect of the game is actually quite reasonable.

 

[Acken]

Well the AI also sits on a pile of gold because it does not rush buildings... When buildings cost 1K and they have 10 cities that should quickly drains their gold. When an AI owns half the map and makes 3K a turn the players deserve to have problems winning.

And actually I'd preffer an AI that sees if someone would win diplo and try to stop it than this passivity. If the AI has too much gold and you cannot ally anything then either diminish the gold AIs have or change the gift mechanic.

To beetle, yes I'm fairly sure Alex will not attempt to buy a CS if it cannot win it with a medium gift (patronage bonus and quests included).

 

[beetle]

When an AI owns half the map and makes 3K a turn the players deserve to have problems winning.

That is a fair point too, but would good design mean that the game is over? The AIs gold is only getting to that point because the game lacks balance mechanisms.

And actually I'd preffer an AI that sees if someone would win diplo and try to stop it than this passivity.

Another good point. Maybe if the AI would buy 2-3 CS but not more than that? The game would be so much less fun if players could never ally CS.

If the AI has too much gold and you cannot ally anything then either diminish the gold AIs have or change the gift mechanic.

Sure, it not elegant, but why is it really a problem if the AI sits on gold?

Will the AI buy SS parts?

 

[Acken]

No it would mean you do not get CSs and other inconveniences. It's not necessarily game over.

Yes sure. At least put an algorithm that checks vote power and buying potential and reacts on that.

It's not a problem if it uses it. It's a problem if it has gold but does not use it. At least it kind of break the immersion for me and removes the interest I could have in winning Diplo.

I can't remember if the AI buys SS parts. Science AIs are heavily skewed toward Order anyway even in my mod because Freedom's strength for a SV is trickier for an AI to use than Order's strengths.