A guide to Space and the Future

[raxo2222]

I'm hoping we can make that very difficult actually so that we have strong intergalactic conflicts at space and planetary levels. Perhaps you conquered all of the dry land but the underwater cities still belong to others? Hoping introducing other species can get into surface level conflicts with them on other planets as well.

Obviously, yes, UN as well as conquest is another way to unify into a global governance.

Fractal space feudalism?
In Crusader Kings you have Empires (galaxies), Kingdoms (galactic alliances), Duchies (solar systems), Counties (planets) and Barons (countries on planets).
First four can wage wars between each other if empire isn't consolidated.
Cultures or religions would be group of galaxies.

 

[Yudishtira]

You're also assuming that this will be possible - that by a particular point in the game, there WILL be a unified singular government on Earth that will allow Earth to be conglomerized into some kind of averaged out singular city with one owner.

He also assumes it will happen, and unavoidably. If we do get the capability to make this happen, I assert that we will be both quite capable of avoiding it, and highly motivated to do so.

I'll just mention Arcology in passing. The mod assumes everyone will 'progress' to arcology housing, whereas this is objectively dystopian, regressive and to be avoided at all costs.

I'm hoping we can make that very difficult actually so that we have strong intergalactic conflicts at space and planetary levels.

Me too.

 

[Blazenclaw]

He also assumes it will happen, and unavoidably. If we do get the capability to make this happen, I assert that we will be both quite capable of avoiding it, and highly motivated to do so.

I'll just mention Arcology in passing. The mod assumes everyone will 'progress' to arcology housing, whereas this is objectively dystopian, regressive and to be avoided at all costs.

I read world government under the guise of "Is it possible that human society adjusts to the point where we can all more or less get along without killing each other or doing stupid things for stupid reasons." Whether or not that will happen is a wildly different idea than whether or not there will be a world government controlling everyone.

I'm also not entirely sure arcology housing is objectively dystopian and regressive, but again this is under the assumption that societal changes can occur before then. It certainly would be dystopian under our current societies and average human social behavior, lol.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I read world government under the guise of "Is it possible that human society adjusts to the point where we can all more or less get along without killing each other or doing stupid things for stupid reasons." Whether or not that will happen is a wildly different idea than whether or not there will be a world government controlling everyone.

I'm also not entirely sure arcology housing is objectively dystopian and regressive, but again this is under the assumption that societal changes can occur before then. It certainly would be dystopian under our current societies and average human social behavior, lol.

It IS fascinating how people assume it would be one thing or the other - either a complete loss of the capacity to self-govern (aka have any freedom at all) or it's the final unity in harmony of all humanity able to coexist in peace and speak with more or less a unified voice for our people.

I'd like to think we can show that it's possible that it could go either way, or perhaps never either way. That any such result is possible depending on what we choose and how the balances of power play out.

 

[Joij21]

You should be able to make NWO before Galactic era.
Maybe it would be like this:
You can force your civics on other civs using UN.
After all civics are synced you can assimilate other civs.

It would be kinda unrealistic if a marxist or fascist nation unified the world through the UN as the UN is after all a classically liberal platform. More likely only a classically liberal society like the U.S.A. could pull that off. Therefore I believe nations should be separated by their ideological preference after the industrial era, similar to the ideology system in civ 5. Then each class of nation would have there own version of the UN that they could use to diplomatically unite the world if they so choose to. Each of these buildings would be similar but have slightly different mechanics befitting of the ideology they represent, such as the Apostolic Palace is to the UN. These would also be places were you can plot and scheme with nations of your own ideological block to perform actions to screw over the other ideologies. Membership requirements would vary, with places like the UN being open to all (but at the cost of slowly forcing you to become more liberal regardless of what you were when you joined) and places like the Apostolic Palace being open only to nations with the state religion of the palace's founding religion (with part time membership to those who have it within their borders).

Basically here is a basic run down of the ideologies (based on current/recently historical ones): Classical Liberal/Neo-Liberal, Marxist, Fascist/Ethno-Nationalist, Monarchist/Absolutionist, Theocratic/Fundamentalist.

The types of buildings that would function as an ideologically specific UN are below:

Apostolic Palace: Theocratic/Fundamentalist

Congress of Vienna: Monarchist/Absolutionist

United Nations: Classical Liberal/Neo-Liberal

The International: Marxist

Nuremberg Rally Grounds: Fascist/Ethno-Nationalist

All of these would then have the option of unifying the world diplomatically after all other opposing ideological nations are either conquered or converted.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It would be kinda unrealistic if a marxist or fascist nation unified the world through the UN as the UN is after all a classically liberal platform. More likely only a classically liberal society like the U.S.A. could pull that off. Therefore I believe nations should be separated by their ideological preference after the industrial era, similar to the ideology system in civ 5. Then each class of nation would have there own version of the UN that they could use to diplomatically unite the world if they so choose to. Each of these buildings would be similar but have slightly different mechanics befitting of the ideology they represent, such as the Apostolic Palace is to the UN. These would also be places were you can plot and scheme with nations of your own ideological block to perform actions to screw over the other ideologies. Membership requirements would vary, with places like the UN being open to all (but at the cost of slowly forcing you to become more liberal regardless of what you were when you joined) and places like the Apostolic Palace being open only to nations with the state religion of the palace's founding religion (with part time membership to those who have it within their borders).

Basically here is a basic run down of the ideologies (based on current/recently historical ones): Classical Liberal/Neo-Liberal, Marxist, Fascist/Ethno-Nationalist, Monarchist/Absolutionist, Theocratic/Fundamentalist.

The types of buildings that would function as an ideologically specific UN are below:

Apostolic Palace: Theocratic/Fundamentalist

Congress of Vienna: Monarchist/Absolutionist

United Nations: Classical Liberal/Neo-Liberal

The International: Marxist

Nuremberg Rally Grounds: Fascist/Ethno-Nationalist

All of these would then have the option of unifying the world diplomatically after all other opposing ideological nations are either conquered or converted.

Some good categorizing for political ideologies that could be tracked under the Ideas project (which would make them compete like cultures in cities and regions).

If you can find the Ideas Project thread, posting this summary there would be helpful for that future project.

 

[Faustmouse]

I imagined a world government kinda like Europe works. You have different, independently ruled countries, with perhaps different systems (democracy, monarchy), United under a common framework and with common goals / projects (like ESA).

And indeed, I think this is what will happen to humans further in the future. Think about a post scarcity era, with fresh water, food, room to life (with orbital habitats, virtual reality, maybe megatowers or earth scrapers) for everyone. If people are better educated (with instant education and AI powered eco cortices), they tend to be less fundamentalistic about political ideologies, or religious views. There will be less and less things to wage war over.
Globally, yok already see a strong decline of the amount of people dying from war, murder or terrorism compared to earlier times.

 

[Yudishtira]

I imagined a world government kinda like Europe works. You have different, independently ruled countries, with perhaps different systems (democracy, monarchy), United under a common framework and with common goals / projects (like ESA).

And indeed, I think this is what will happen to humans further in the future. Think about a post scarcity era, with fresh water, food, room to life (with orbital habitats, virtual reality, maybe megatowers or earth scrapers) for everyone. If people are better educated (with instant education and AI powered eco cortices), they tend to be less fundamentalistic about political ideologies, or religious views. There will be less and less things to wage war over.
Globally, yok already see a strong decline of the amount of people dying from war, murder or terrorism compared to earlier times.

1. I know C2C civics don't allow it, but the monarchies in the EU are also democracies. Absolute monarchies like Russia and (not for much longer) Belarus are not allowed in. (You have to fake your elections way better than that...)

2. In Orwell's 1984, the three superpowers fight a neverending war, primarily to maintain scarcity and lower standards of living. This is pretty much the truth of why such expensive militaries are maintained.

3. All power corrupts. People generally can't handle unconstrained 'freedom' and especially power. Rather than preventing the atrocities of the past and present, raising individuals to the power levels of corporations or countries is just as likely to lead to atrocities proliferating. (Look at Michael Jackson...) It doesn't seem to matter that they are no longer necessary. That much power seems to be its own motivation to screw things up.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I imagined a world government kinda like Europe works. You have different, independently ruled countries, with perhaps different systems (democracy, monarchy), United under a common framework and with common goals / projects (like ESA).

And indeed, I think this is what will happen to humans further in the future. Think about a post scarcity era, with fresh water, food, room to life (with orbital habitats, virtual reality, maybe megatowers or earth scrapers) for everyone. If people are better educated (with instant education and AI powered eco cortices), they tend to be less fundamentalistic about political ideologies, or religious views. There will be less and less things to wage war over.
Globally, yok already see a strong decline of the amount of people dying from war, murder or terrorism compared to earlier times.

Yeah it's possible but it's only one of many possibilities and C2C is really about discovering which of the many possibilities come to pass. Predestining the Earth for global governance really flies in the face of what the game is all about, which really IS, in many ways, to find out exactly how Humanity unites and/or stays divided politically throughout all ages. That's the heart of the game really.

 

[Joij21]

If people are better educated (with instant education and AI powered eco cortices), they tend to be less fundamentalistic about political ideologies, or religious views.

I disagree. Most uneducated people don't know what politics is or simply don't care. When people are informed about their freedoms however they are more willing to fight to maintain them. So I would say the opposite is true.

 

[raxo2222]

Yeah it's possible but it's only one of many possibilities and C2C is really about discovering which of the many possibilities come to pass. Predestining the Earth for global governance really flies in the face of what the game is all about, which really IS, in many ways, to find out exactly how Humanity units and/or stays divided politically throughout all ages. That's the heart of the game really.

How you will keep MAFs at bay?
And how you will manage 200 or so cities in late game?
Earth and Solar System cities gets less and less stuff to build once in Galactic and later eras.

NWO would be nice way to remove Earth, its memory load and micromanagement mess.

 

[Thunderbrd]

How you will keep MAFs at bay?
And how you will manage 200 or so cities in late game?
Earth and Solar System cities gets less and less stuff to build once in Galactic and later eras.

NWO would be nice way to remove Earth, its memory load and micromanagement mess.

Let's just build into it and see what can be achieved is how I see it. It's amazing how many times we've overcome barriers by refusing to plan to yield to them.

 

[raxo2222]

Let's just build into it and see what can be achieved is how I see it. It's amazing how many times we've overcome barriers by refusing to plan to yield to them.

I guess obsoletions and replacements could be reviewed during building review.
Pepper's megafactories are replacing lots of earlier buildings already.
Are replaced or obsoleted building kept in memory as if they weren't removed at all?

You could have Earth city starter autobuild, if you place city at some later point.

Space have much less buildings, units and resources, but much more different improvements, features and terrains.
Space stuff never obsoletes.
AI could have easier time in space, you would have to teach AI, that it has to create value from void, not just increase already existing land value.
In early stage of space colonization you need space station improvement (placed on orbit), which then needs to be upgraded using units.
Also lunar settler can settle only on Lunar Outpost and its upgrade.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Are replaced or obsoleted building kept in memory as if they weren't removed at all?

Yeah whether a building is in use or not is relatively little to do with whether it's taking memory or not. Simply being defined in the XML is most of the memory cost there and each building in our assets adds a little per city. Regardless of the era its defined for. Obsoletion doesn't do anything to change the memory cost. Every city tracks every possible building and either has it or doesn't and its either active or it isn't.

Space have much less buildings, units and resources, but much more different improvements, features and terrains.
Space stuff never obsoletes.
AI could have easier time in space, you would have to teach AI, that it has to create value from void, not just increase already existing land value.
In early stage of space colonization you need space station improvement (placed on orbit), which then needs to be upgraded using units.
Also lunar settler can settle only on Lunar Outpost and its upgrade.

Obviously there's a lot to teach the AI and that's part of the unit review planning taking place now to consider some of that.

It's my hope that most of the data on a map can be packed away and not held in active memory when a map isn't open so that we can have ALMOST endless maps in play but we'll see how it works out.

 

[Yudishtira]

I disagree. Most uneducated people don't know what politics is or simply don't care. When people are informed about their freedoms however they are more willing to fight to maintain them. So I would say the opposite is true.

"When I look back on all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder I can think at all" - Paul Simon

On the one hand, I agree education is overrated. It is for the most part a cynical waste of time for the purpose (among similarly sordid others) of maintaining the class hierarchy and divisions. And there's no reason to think (much less to assume) that the future will change that

On the other hand, the current US Republicans prove that the undereducated can be politicized to an alarming degree (I don't think 'weaponized' is too strong a word).

 

[Joij21]

On the other hand, the current US Republicans prove that the undereducated can be politicized to an alarming degree (I don't think 'weaponized' is too strong a word).

Are they? I mean they're at least intelligent enough to go to the polling both and vote. Plus its not like any form of education within the U.S. teaches people to not be racist.

But suppose it did, I think like any morality course it could easily be cheated. Racism is after all a matter of personal morality and not something that can simply be educated away. Plus no one really knows what goes on in someone's head, and things like these tend to be more influenced by one's upbringing rather than education. Like if they're parents were racist then they probably think it is okay to be racist like them.

 

[Trantor]

aliens, under sea city.....space cities

civilization 2 had under sea cities and space colonies

 

[tmv]

aliens, under sea city.....space cities

civilization 2 had under sea cities and space colonies

Civ2 Test of Time had Multiple Maps, but there were many additions after that (culture, religions, promotions, strategic resources, great persons, etc.) that C2C cannot do without. It's just unfortunate that the additions of ToT were dropped and almost forgotten. But then many people thought that ToT was inferior to Civ2 Vanilla because they liked the graphics less (any resemblance to Civ4 compared to Civ5/6 is completely accidental, of course).

 

[Thunderbrd]

aliens, under sea city.....space cities

civilization 2 had under sea cities and space colonies

Civ2 Test of Time had Multiple Maps, but there were many additions after that (culture, religions, promotions, strategic resources, great persons, etc.) that C2C cannot do without. It's just unfortunate that the additions of ToT were dropped and almost forgotten. But then many people thought that ToT was inferior to Civ2 Vanilla because they liked the graphics less (any resemblance to Civ4 compared to Civ5/6 is completely accidental, of course).

Yeah well we're working on all of that. Will be a bit but it's where we're trying to go here.

 

[lelmar888]

I can’t for the life of me figure out why I’m unable to build the lunar manufacturing building. I’ve got all the prerequisites in place. What am I missing?