A Human Paradox

It does not give a date and time when that happened. Actually it is the dating methods used that posite a time frame.

The Biblical account does not say Adam was a promoted inferior animal, but was a demoted human, and his race is all that has survived to this day.

Adam was 'innocent', naked and without shame or knowledge of good and evil (morality). Obtaining that knowledge made us like the gods. The search for a mate for Adam began with the other animals. Eve's 'curse' was multiplied pain in child birth. Both of these 'events' happened 100-200kya. And one more - all the land was of one tongue. If we started out in Africa in low numbers, we probably did begin with one language.
 
Using traditional and new approaches, we estimate the first modern human population divergence time to between 350,000 and 260,000 years ago. This estimate increases the deepest divergence among modern humans, coinciding with anatomical developments of archaic humans into modern humans as represented in the local fossil record.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2017/09/27/science.aao6266
https://medium.com/@hbergeronx/how-...e-when-various-human-populations-f32e8ea05073

thats up to 250,000 years of staying in Africa, but it does put it in the ball park for Zecharia Sitchin's theory based on sumerian and biblical myth - he said we originated ~300,000 years ago followed by continued development, ie Adam
 
Using traditional and new approaches, we estimate the first modern human population divergence time to between 350,000 and 260,000 years ago. This estimate increases the deepest divergence among modern humans, coinciding with anatomical developments of archaic humans into modern humans as represented in the local fossil record.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2017/09/27/science.aao6266
https://medium.com/@hbergeronx/how-...e-when-various-human-populations-f32e8ea05073

thats up to 250,000 years of staying in Africa, but it does put it in the ball park for Zecharia Sitchin's theory based on sumerian and biblical myth - he said we originated ~300,000 years ago followed by continued development, ie Adam
I think we have been here before and Sitchin is wrong
 
Maybe tomorrow. Bedtime for me.
 
I wonder what the next ruse will be. 5 or 6 pages about 'what's your favourite apple?', and discussions about the different varieties and where they grow. Then this will suddenly turn into which specific genetically-engineered-by-aliens variety of apple helps us pinpoint the exact location of Eden and the tree of knowledge.
 
it wasn't an apple... nor was it an actual tree

But whatever it was, it produced a being with a brain larger than what evolution had designed for it. Eve's curse was multiplied pain in child birth, tie that into Adam and Eve's newfound 'god-like' intelligence and we have a story about our emergence from an earlier creature - a story that goes back well over 100,000 years.

if the dating of anatomically modern humans does go back to the 300,000 ky range, that means we spent maybe 200,000 sitting in Africa.
 
it wasn't an apple... nor was it an actual tree
So the story is wrong? If it is wrong about the apple, it could be wrong in other ways too. You are just cherry picking what you want to fit

But whatever it was, it produced a being with a brain larger than what evolution had designed for it. Eve's curse was multiplied pain in child birth, tie that into Adam and Eve's newfound 'god-like' intelligence and we have a story about our emergence from an earlier creature - a story that goes back well over 100,000 years.
No it didn't. You can see the ongoing evolution of brain size over a couple of million years. BTW, how do you know that birthing females of Home erectus didn't endure pain? Do elephants experience pain at birthing? Whales? Are you saying that only humans do?

Well our god-like intelligence certainly is excellent at screwing over fellow citizens.
 
Do elephants experience pain at birthing? Whales?
Don't know about elephants and whales in particular, but a search for animal birth videos in youtube should quickly dispell this myth that animals in general don't feel pain during the process of giving birth.
Of course he snuck the word "multiplied" in there, so that claim can not be accurately tested.
 
You realise what I said was just a joke prediction right? You don't actually have to start discussing apples and the tree of knowledge.
 
So the story is wrong? If it is wrong about the apple, it could be wrong in other ways too. You are just cherry picking what you want to fit

The story is an ancient version of an even older mythology employing occasional metaphors, but researchers have shown the 'fruit' was not an apple - that switch came with the latin language (apple=malus=evil or something like that). I dont care if it was an apple or something else, why would I? I'm just reporting what scholars have figured out.

No it didn't. You can see the ongoing evolution of brain size over a couple of million years. BTW, how do you know that birthing females of Home erectus didn't endure pain? Do elephants experience pain at birthing? Whales? Are you saying that only humans do?

The 'curse' on Eve was multiplied pain in child birth and this curse came with the god-like knowledge of good and evil. Do you see a connection between the two? Babies with bigger brains.

Well our god-like intelligence certainly is excellent at screwing over fellow citizens.

We're god-like in more than one way... Doesn't speak well of god...

Don't know about elephants and whales in particular, but a search for animal birth videos in youtube should quickly dispell this myth that animals in general don't feel pain during the process of giving birth.

Of course he snuck the word "multiplied" in there, so that claim can not be accurately tested.

The Bible 'snuck' it in... and thats important, God was comparing the pain Eve would suffer with someone else. Who? Our smaller brained ancestors.

"To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children."

Now why on Earth would God tell Eve that? It wasn't a curse, God was merely explaining to Eve a not-so pleasant consequence of becoming smarter.

https://www.livescience.com/7602-painful-labor-modern.html

The birth canal of that female Homo erectus is, in fact, 30 percent larger than that of the typical modern woman. As a result, Homo erectus birth might have been a relative walk in the park (or on the savanna) compared with today. Those ladies might have simply stopped, crouched down, and pushed. They might have screamed, but surely there was no need for Lamaze, or midwives, or Cesarean sections.

The big news, for anthropologists anyway, is that painful labor is much more recent than anyone assumed.

If the current shape of the human pelvis is more recent, then something eventually made the human body taller, leaner, and with a more narrow birth canal. And we can only speculate what those selective forces might have been to bring about all that birth pain.

It was the tree of knowledge

Here's a theory to explain our delayed migration

https://phys.org/news/2017-10-ancient-humans-left-africa-climate.html

They're claiming it was ~60 kya... But people were arriving in Australia about that time, so... If we go back to 300 kya, we stayed in Africa for 240,000 years. Thats stunning... The Sumerian myth says people were made to work for the gods, we were slaves... so was Adam. And maybe the 'plantation' was Africa and then god took the man he made eastward to his Garden.
 
The migration out of Africa is getting more and more complicated.

To begin, prior to the final out of Africa migration by H Sapiens, Europe and Asia were populated by Neanderthals, Denisovans and H. Erectus. The Neanderthals and Denisovans appear to have had a common ancestor who migrated out of Africa around 500,000 years ago.

Good Link on migrations into Asia and around Africa. It tells a different story than yours.

This link describes a new twist that includes failed attempts for humans to migrate out of Africa much earlier. You keep trying to force the data to fit your theory of Sumerian mythology and alien intervention. Humans were not enslaved by aliens to grow food 300,000 years ago. A 300,000 year oral tradition is not possible. etc.

wiki said:
Ethiopia is considered one of the earliest sites of the emergence of anatomically modern humans, Homo sapiens. The oldest of these local fossil finds, the Omo remains, were excavated in the southwestern Omo Kibish area and have been dated to the Middle Paleolithic, around 200,000 years ago.[12] Additionally, skeletons of Homo sapiens idaltu were found at a site in the Middle Awash valley. Dated to approximately 160,000 years ago, they may represent an extinct subspecies of Homo sapiens, or the immediate ancestors of anatomically modern humans.[13] Fossils excavated at the Jebel Irhoud site in Morocco have since been dated to an earlier period, about 300,000 years ago.[14]

Current dating of human fossils indicates that modern humans migrating Out of Africa between 125 - 18 kya (thousand years ago) moved into lands occupied by at least four known homo species. These are (species/place/most recent date alive): h.erectus, Eurasia, 27kya; h.neanderthalensis, Europe 30kya/Central Asia 40kya; h.sp.altai (or Denisovans), Siberia/Asia/SE Asia, 30kya), h. floresiensis (or 'Hobbits', note controversy whether this is a homo species), SE Asia, 18kya. There is genetic evidence from Melanesian and Australian Aboriginal DNA, of another unidentified homo species from around 400kya to a time when interbreeding with modern humans migrating OoA could have occurred (70-30kya?). Plus, early humans could have interacted with any number of hybrid groups that became extinct, as indicated by examples such as: Lapedo Child, Europe, 24kya; Red Deer Cave People, China, 11kya; h.tsaichangensis, Taiwan, 10kya.

When modern humans reached the Near East or Levantine corridor 125,000 years ago, evidence suggests they were forced out, as their settlements were replaced by Neanderthals between 80-47kys .[8] This same reference shows support for the probability that multiple Out of Africa (OoA) migrations occurred from as early as 125kya to as far as China, but "died out" and did not contribute to the DNA of living modern humans. One well supported view is that the first modern humans that contributed to the DNA of living modern humans, spread east across Asia from Africa about 75,000 years ago across the Southern Route of Bab el Mandib connecting Ethiopia and Yemen.[15] A recent review has shown support for both the Northern Route through Sinai/Israel/Syria (Levant), and, that both routes may have been used.[8] From the Near East, some of these people went east to South Asia by 50,000 years ago, and on to Australia by 46,000 years ago at the latest,[16] when for the first time H. sapiens reached territory never reached by H. erectus. H. sapiens reached Europe around 43,000 years ago,[17] eventually replacing the Neanderthal population by 40,000 years ago [18] East Asia was reached by 30,000 years ago. Archaeological and genetic data suggest that the source populations of Paleolithic humans survived in sparsely wooded areas and dispersed through areas of high primary productivity while avoiding dense forest cover.[19] The date of migration to North America, and whether humans had previously inhabited the Americas is disputed; it may have taken place around 130 thousand years ago,[20] or considerably later, around 14 thousand years ago. The oldest radiocarbon dated carbonized plant remains were determined to be 50,300 years old and were discovered at the Topper site in Allendale South Carolina in May 2004 alongside stone tools similar to those of pre-Clovis era humans.[21] The oldest DNA evidence of human habitation in North America however, has been radiocarbon dated to 14,300 years ago, and was found in fossilized human coprolites uncovered in the Paisley Five Mile Point Caves in south-central Oregon.[22] Colonization of the Pacific islands of Polynesia began around 1300 BC, and was completed by 1280 AD (New Zealand). The ancestors of Polynesians left Taiwan around 5,200 years ago.

More recent migrations of language and culture groups within the modern species are also studied and hypothetised. The African Epipaleolithic Kebaran culture is believed to have reached Eurasia about 18,000 years ago, introducing the bow and arrow to the Middle East, and may have been responsible for the spread of the Nostratic languages. The people of the Afro-Asiatic language family seem to have reached Africa in 6,200 BC, introducing the Semitic languages to the Middle East.

From there they spread around the world. An initial venture out of Africa 125,000 years ago was followed by a flood out of Africa via the Arabian Peninsula into Eurasia around 60,000 years ago, with one group rapidly settling coastal areas around the Indian Ocean and one group migrating north to steppes of Central Asia.[23]
 
The 'curse' on Eve was multiplied pain in child birth and this curse came with the god-like knowledge of good and evil. Do you see a connection between the two? Babies with bigger brains.
Babies don't know anything about good and evil other than being fed is good. Being cuddled is good. Not receiving those two things is not good. But they don't lay around pondering it and saying, "You know, it's really evil of my mother not to feed or cuddle me. Somebody get me a phone, I want to call Child Protective Services."
 
I know I'm not supposed to plonk some video in the thread without introduction, also the discussion has veered into look-how-genesis-is-accurate-honest territory. So with regard to that I have found a short 10 minute lecture of an atheist speaker who explores the merits of that part of the Bible, which set him thinking. I believe it's a candid, open minded portrayal.

The lecture
 
Babies don't know anything about good and evil other than being fed is good. Being cuddled is good. Not receiving those two things is not good. But they don't lay around pondering it and saying, "You know, it's really evil of my mother not to feed or cuddle me. Somebody get me a phone, I want to call Child Protective Services."

He's not really saying that though, he's just saying that bigger brains lead to increased intelligence ("knowledge of good and evil") and more painful chidlbirth.
 
The migration out of Africa is getting more and more complicated.

To begin, prior to the final out of Africa migration by H Sapiens, Europe and Asia were populated by Neanderthals, Denisovans and H. Erectus. The Neanderthals and Denisovans appear to have had a common ancestor who migrated out of Africa around 500,000 years ago.

Good Link on migrations into Asia and around Africa. It tells a different story than yours.

This link describes a new twist that includes failed attempts for humans to migrate out of Africa much earlier. You keep trying to force the data to fit your theory of Sumerian mythology and alien intervention. Humans were not enslaved by aliens to grow food 300,000 years ago. A 300,000 year oral tradition is not possible. etc.

What is my story? Your link says people made it to Australia 46kya, thats quite a bit later than the 60-65 kya I've seen in the research. If we started out as slaves, some undoubtedly escaped but they died out or got absorbed by earlier Eurasian peoples - the migration responsible for us seems to have occurred sometime after 70 kya...

Now here's the interesting thing about the Bible and Sumerian myth, there's a passage in Genesis claiming God's 'spirit' would reside in man only 120 years and the Flood would end us (flesh and blood).
But the Sumerians attributed to their gods a 'divine year', "God's year" was 3,600 years. We can see this belief embodied in various kings lists, pre-flood monarchs (gods) lived and reigned for very long periods of time, even 'mythical'.

Multiplying 120 x 3600 gives us 432,000 years... That number shows up in the architecture of Angkor Wat and mythology of the Vikings (thru 540 doors will go 800 warriors to face the wolf at the end time). But that was 432,000 years before the flood, or about 445,000 years bp. According to the Sumerian myth the gods labored 40 years before rebelling and that led to our creation as labor. Multiply 40 by 3600 and we get 144,000 years. Subtract that from 445,000 and we get ~300,000 years ago for this rebellion of the gods (sounds a bit like Lucifer's disobedience).

So starting around 300,000 years ago the Sumerian gods began the process of making us. Their first goal was labor but eventually the gods making us took pride in their creation and produced smarter critters. Another god didn't like that, he didn't want us roaming around disrupting his domain. Hence we have a god in Genesis intent on wiping us out while saving us - two different gods were the main actors and the monotheists combined them into one somewhat schizophrenic deity.
 
When do you get to the bit with an alien spaceship millions of years ago that had a chief medical officer? I liked that bit, that was one of the highlights.
 
Now here's the interesting thing about the Bible and Sumerian myth, there's a passage in Genesis claiming God's 'spirit' would reside in man only 120 years
I don't have a problem with somebody living 120 years. There are records of people living to that age (or close). There aren't many, though.

But women of that age getting pregnant and giving birth is just ridiculous. Humans living to 900 years? Give us a break. It's just a story. Nobody human lives that long other than in fantasy or science fiction stories.

But the Sumerians attributed to their gods a 'divine year', "God's year" was 3,600 years. We can see this belief embodied in various kings lists, pre-flood monarchs (gods) lived and reigned for very long periods of time, even 'mythical'.
Oh. Please. Stop. :huh:

If some future person were studying the history of England, they might conclude that some guy named "Henry" reigned for centuries. But they'd have missed the fact that there were eight of them - eight different men, none of whom lived an extraordinarily long life.

Multiplying 120 x 3600 gives us 432,000 years... That number shows up in the architecture of Angkor Wat and mythology of the Vikings (thru 540 doors will go 800 warriors to face the wolf at the end time). But that was 432,000 years before the flood, or about 445,000 years bp. According to the Sumerian myth the gods labored 40 years before rebelling and that led to our creation as labor. Multiply 40 by 3600 and we get 144,000 years. Subtract that from 445,000 and we get ~300,000 years ago for this rebellion of the gods (sounds a bit like Lucifer's disobedience).

So starting around 300,000 years ago the Sumerian gods began the process of making us. Their first goal was labor but eventually the gods making us took pride in their creation and produced smarter critters. Another god didn't like that, he didn't want us roaming around disrupting his domain. Hence we have a god in Genesis intent on wiping us out while saving us - two different gods were the main actors and the monotheists combined them into one somewhat schizophrenic deity.
:lmao: Humans were not created by "gods" or even a single "god." Slavery has gone on for a very long time, granted. It's still around. But this "gods created us to be their slaves" is just nonsense.

He's not really saying that though, he's just saying that bigger brains lead to increased intelligence ("knowledge of good and evil") and more painful chidlbirth.
So the bigger the brain = the bigger the intelligence?

Uh-huh. So why aren't elephants the dominant land mammals? Why don't whales rule the planet, since they're the largest-brained of the mammals? You can't possibly claim that they don't experience pain in childbirth, or distress.
 
So the bigger the brain = the bigger the intelligence?

Uh-huh. So why aren't elephants the dominant land mammals? Why don't whales rule the planet, since they're the largest-brained of the mammals? You can't possibly claim that they don't experience pain in childbirth, or distress.

Well I mean by and large that's true isn't it? You can't really deny that there's a fairly strong correlation.

But anyway, have that argument with him I guess, I was just saying that we wasn't actually talking about babies having a conception of good and evil.
 
Spoiler :
q1dzpW1.jpg
 
Back
Top Bottom