A new idea: religious wars

[Rhye]

no, they can't spread, because they aren't religions.
They are just a decision the leaders do, like the state religion.
Choose one faction, and in case join a war vs the other faction, that's it.

 

[Gunner]

How is this feature coming Rhye?

I'd just like to say again that I think it would be a great addition. In my current game as the Russians all of Europe is either pleased or friendly with eachother due to everyone being Christian. As a result there haven't been any wars among Europeans. Adding in the occasional religious split war would really spice things up a lot.

 

[Surtur]

Well maybe a bit OT but I think after most civs adopt Free Religion it could be nice if wars were triggered by having oppositional civics (e.g. Free Market <--> State Property) or the AI Attitude could change more than currently in CIV4.

 

[Rhye]

How is this feature coming Rhye?

It will come, but not in the next version. I'm preparing another, unexpected thing for it instead

Well maybe a bit OT but I think after most civs adopt Free Religion it could be nice if wars were triggered by having oppositional civics (e.g. Free Market <--> State Property) or the AI Attitude could change more than currently in CIV4.

nice idea

 

[Prestidigitator]

[...] I'm preparing another, unexpected thing for it instead

Warlords? ?

 

[Rhye]

No, sorry

 

[Gunner]

It will come, but not in the next version. I'm preparing another, unexpected thing for it instead

Exciting! I wonder what it will be.

 

[Elhoim]

It will come, but not in the next version. I'm preparing another, unexpected thing for it instead

Mediterranean Religion?

 

[WiegrafFolles]

I'd just like to add my two cents on the Confucianism/Daoism issue. Primarily we have a problem here because the two "religions" (their status as such is debated) don't fit neatly into exclusive categories. While Daoism and Confucianism arise from a similar background (the cultural heritage for pre-Warring States China such as the ideas behind the sage kings of the Shang and Zhou) they can be said to have some distinctive elements. Enough so to draw some distinctions. However as early as before the the Han Dynasty ideas arise such as the 5 phases-Yin/Yang School which are heavily influential in both movements. If you think Confucianists were just hard headed rational humanists, think again, they were extremely interested in divination during the Han Dynasty. Cross-influences can be seen too in movements such as Neo-Daoism in the Wei-Chin period (220-420 CE) (after the fall of the Han) in fact interpret Daoist texts to reformulate Confucianism!

You point out the Yellow Turbans arising during the fall of the Han, yet there was another significant group called the Celestial Masters that arose whose ideas of the "Celestial Bureaucracy" can be seen as influenced by a Confucian heritage. Later in Tang and Song there occurs a massive influx of Buddhist ideas which profoundly alter both Confucianism (so called "Neo-Confucianism") and Daoism (Quanzhen for instance), eventually leading to a mixture of all three movements so that today a "Daoist" temple may contain a statue of Confucius, Lao Zi, the Yellow Emperor, and the buddhist goddess Kuan Yin!

Needless to say the story here is one of dynamic interaction and merger rather than hard distinctions! While there was certainly competition between these groups (for instance the Daoists are accused of inciting anti-Buddhist purges during the Tang by the government which were quite bloody and wide spread) on the historical whole we can say they have become very closely knit. Naturally it is difficult to incorporate this into a game yet if we look for instance at the examples of Korea or Japan, this mixture was often imported together in varying ways in the adoption of Sinic culture. I don't know if this helps, just thought I'd add my 2 cents. VERY interesting mod!

 

[Rhye]

thank you, WiegrafFolles.
I had studied a bit of those things and knew their interaction. So, do you support merging into one?

 

[doc_knoeselfeld]

i really like the idea of religious wars actually i thought of this some days ago as i played england and all of europe was christian (8 nations i think) and everyone was singing kumbaya and enjoying peace

 

[Aeon221]

It could be nice, but _random_ wars with _random_ allies? I would prefer a much less deterministric system with some sort of diplomacy malus.

I just have this fear (probably from playing as Russia so much, builders ftw!) of being tossed into a random war against Germany and co with only England on my side.

 

[WiegrafFolles]

For the purposes of the game it seems reasonable to merge them, since they don't really fit into the exclusive categories the game sets out. As for the name it's hard to think of....they're Confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism, are often spoken of together as the "Three Teachings" but since Buddhism isn't indigenously Chinese it presents something of a problem to use that name.

A friend of mine who is a Chinese Philosophy major suggested Siniticism...sounds kind of funny but it's the best thing I can think of. Anyhow given how nations arise and evolve in this game it's certainly fair to say Korea, Japan, etc. fell within such a general cultural influence and evolved out of it.

 

[Perfection]

I wonder if the civ4 engine is capable of reunification, this could be quite useful as sects often recombine.

 

[dh_epic]

Syncretism (religious combination) happened all the time throughout history, but they were a matter of geography rather than anything intrinsic about the faiths. In China, it can be said that multiple religions came together to influence a sort of "national thought" -- and many citizens were Confucianist AND Buddhist AND Taoist. But to me, this is the same thing as the Baha'i Faith: when the combination of Hindu, Christian, and Islamic ideals came together in Persia -- a sort of religious melting pot.

If you want to ditch confucianism for strategic reasons (e.g.: too many eastern religions), go ahead, if you must... but I would be against a merger (e.g.: confucianism as a sect of taoism, or vice versa).

Just my two cents.

 

[WiegrafFolles]

Yeah the suggestion was for a kind of Chinese "meta-religion" to stand in for the complexity of the Chinese religious landscape. I certainly agree that subsuming one faith under another would be problematic.

 

[OzzyKP]

Needless to say the story here is one of dynamic interaction and merger rather than hard distinctions! While there was certainly competition between these groups (for instance the Daoists are accused of inciting anti-Buddhist purges during the Tang by the government which were quite bloody and wide spread) on the historical whole we can say they have become very closely knit.

Very intersting. Can you direct me to more information about the Buddhist purges?

 

[WiegrafFolles]

I found that in the diary of a Buddhist monk from Japan who made a pligrimage to Tang China and was forced to leave the country during the purges. It's important to note that it's estimated that the Buddhist religious establishment was estimated to own about 80% of the material assets in China at this time so there was definitely reasons for the Imperial government to get antsy. Combine that with an Emperor who was obsessed with finding the Daoist pill of immortality and you've got trouble! Anyhow the book is called Ennin's Diary: The Record of a Pilgrimage to China in Search of the Law, though I'm sure you could find some info about it in a book on Tang China too.

 

[rappstar]

This idea is so hot....

 

[SadoMacho]

Judaism has always been a minority religion (except in Israel). Perhaps it shouldn't be a state religion no more. If judaism should spread to your cities, it could be like a bonus. Jews were (and still are) good merchants, a jewish temple could give extra gold to a city.