which is essentially an anarchy,
even though IOT always booms during the summer and recesses during the fall because nearly all of us are students, and we're primarily going into college, not out of it.
A Petition to Merge NES-IOT
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which is essentially an anarchy,
even though IOT always booms during the summer and recesses during the fall because nearly all of us are students, and we're primarily going into college, not out of it.
Tsoate
Prince
I would suggest this is a non-starter with such division between the ranks.
Never the less, as has been said, all it would take is for someone to actually successfully run an IOT in the NES forum and everyone would see there really is nothing to worry about.
Just do it.
Sonic mentioned a lack of viable players. Yes, it takes work and effort, but the best way forward is to push out those updates and people will come. Bring a dozen stalwarts from IOT. So, so many NES seem to die before they even begin, people are hesitant to get involved lest their efforts be wasted. Get something successful and enjoyable and people will start to pay attention.
No, don't come and run an IOT in the NES forum... that's what the IOT forum's for. Any self-avowed IOT that gets posted in NES is - inherently and self-confessingly - in the wrong forum and ought to be moved, like any other thread that's just been posted in the wrong forum, as laid out in the forum rules. If you're an IOTer, come and play in a NES in the NES forum, or set up a NES in the NESing forum that borrows from elements of IOT if you like, but expect your player base to play it according to the underlying conventions and assumptions of NESing. If we want to play an IOT, we'll come and join you.
Tsoate
Prince
If they changed the title, non would be the wiser given the diversity of NES games.
Well, that depends how much like an IOT it is, and how much like a NES it is. If you change the name, then you're already making it more like a NES. Besides, the players make a game as much as the mod: if you call it a NES, you'll get people playing it in a different way - to the extent that it might become a NES - depending of course on whether the mod's moderation is compatible with the players. If, though, the mod wants to play an IOT, IOT-style, they will need players that also wish to play one, which they won't find in the NESing forum.
I present you with the following (admittedly slightly extreme) example, which was summarily ignored, as I expect such a game as you propose might be - unless it adapted to NESing's conventions to such an extent that is actually was, rather than merely pretended to be a NES: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=496706&highlight=IOT
I present you with the following (admittedly slightly extreme) example, which was summarily ignored, as I expect such a game as you propose might be - unless it adapted to NESing's conventions to such an extent that is actually was, rather than merely pretended to be a NES: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=496706&highlight=IOT
Tsoate
Prince
Haha, that link is rather funny/sad. No one even replied either for or against.
Crezth
i knew you were a real man of the left
How exactly different is this "different way?" I'd be inclined to say "not very" except in the conceit of the players. NESers like to think they play in-character, harmoniously, with wise attention given to diplomacy and detail, but we know for a fact that they stray from this behavior frequently. And in some NESes, these are mere details. You are treating NESes as more homogeneous and monolithic than they truly are.
If you merge IOT and NES, you get the wider playerbase of both expanding, and people learning from each other as we work together to make cooler, better games. The opposition to the merging is a nativist ideal that there's something integral to NESing that must be preserved, as if we have nothing to learn from the IOTers. And this is a deeply misinformed, prejudiced state of mind. Since most NESes don't get past 5 updates, I don't think it's apparent that NESing culture is so rich and vibrant that the entire foundation of forum gaming collapses in wake of merging with other people who also like to do exactly the same things as we do.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
I want to play an IOT, NES-style. Am I an abomination which should have never existed?
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Okay, it's obvious that this proposal isn't going to fly right now. Part of the reason I posted this petition in the first place is that I wanted to gage what the opinions of the NES forum were, because honestly I wasn't entirely sure of your opinions. Now that I have seen what they are I think that a merger of NES and IOT at this time would be premature. I still think it would be a good idea, but I think we should build cooperation, consensus and community between the two communities. I dunno, maybe if someone worked out how to host a game on NES and IOT at the same time? Continued use of the NES/IOT ad threads? Whatever the case, I really think we should give ourselves, the IOT community, a chance to show that our NESing brothers that this merger is a good idea by increasing collaboration and cross-pollination. The only thing that I know is that I would never support a merger without majority support from both communities.
I'm just going to pick apart that one, Crezth, because you said quite a few different things in quite a short space of time. I'm not hoping to instigate a quote war.
What is NESing apart from the conceit of the players?
And get berated for it, allowing some degree of verisimilitude to be obtained at times and in some places, and potentially educating said NESers to be better at it in future.
No, I'm not. I know very well that they're not all that important in some NESes; but I'd say a decent majority rely on these details, and most of the rest would miss them if they weren't there.
Or we get the IOTers trying to play in a way distinctly different to how NESers tend to want to play to an extent even greater than they presently do, causing a diminution of the verisimilitude, erudition, and storytelling quality that NESes do not only pretend to possess, but actually sometimes do possess?
The support for merging is founded on somehow being unable see that these two things are different games. What's cool in an IOT (i.e. a heightened competitiveness and lots of light-hearted fun of a particular sort) isn't fun and cool to a NESer (who generally is looking for something significantly more erudite and cultured - albeit, I grant you, not very erudite and cultured, because we're not all that good at what we try to do). Yes, many of us are a bit elitist; we're looking for a certain intellectualism in our entertainment that we gain in small-ish quantities from NESing, and, I think, we by-and-large want others who play alongside us to join us in aiming at something a little bit more serious and intellectual than "winning" or "having fun" - which simply isn't the case in IOT. I think that a really good NES - of the sort to which I think many NESers would aspire to mod like the mods of, or play in well - like N3S, or something like a hypothetically successful DaNES II or PerfNES, has the possibility of meaningfully expanding one's understanding a little. That isn't nativism, though. Nativism would be if we didn't want anything to do with IOT just because it's not NES, which isn't the case at all: IOTers are free to do NESing. But IOTers who NES often seem to miss the point that NESing isn't necessarily all about "winning" or "having fun" and isn't even necessarily a "game", as such - and I contend that such IOTers are slightly missing the point.
Now, of course, most NESers probably consciously think nothing along those lines, and they're entitled to their views, but I think it's an important element of the matter. IOTs and NESes merging would take some of the light-hearted fun out of IOTs when NESers tried to play them seriously; and would take some of the (relatively) serious intellectualism out of some significant NESes when IOTers tried to play them too light-heartedly.
Well said!
What is NESing apart from the conceit of the players?
And get berated for it, allowing some degree of verisimilitude to be obtained at times and in some places, and potentially educating said NESers to be better at it in future.
No, I'm not. I know very well that they're not all that important in some NESes; but I'd say a decent majority rely on these details, and most of the rest would miss them if they weren't there.
Or we get the IOTers trying to play in a way distinctly different to how NESers tend to want to play to an extent even greater than they presently do, causing a diminution of the verisimilitude, erudition, and storytelling quality that NESes do not only pretend to possess, but actually sometimes do possess?
The support for merging is founded on somehow being unable see that these two things are different games. What's cool in an IOT (i.e. a heightened competitiveness and lots of light-hearted fun of a particular sort) isn't fun and cool to a NESer (who generally is looking for something significantly more erudite and cultured - albeit, I grant you, not very erudite and cultured, because we're not all that good at what we try to do). Yes, many of us are a bit elitist; we're looking for a certain intellectualism in our entertainment that we gain in small-ish quantities from NESing, and, I think, we by-and-large want others who play alongside us to join us in aiming at something a little bit more serious and intellectual than "winning" or "having fun" - which simply isn't the case in IOT. I think that a really good NES - of the sort to which I think many NESers would aspire to mod like the mods of, or play in well - like N3S, or something like a hypothetically successful DaNES II or PerfNES, has the possibility of meaningfully expanding one's understanding a little. That isn't nativism, though. Nativism would be if we didn't want anything to do with IOT just because it's not NES, which isn't the case at all: IOTers are free to do NESing. But IOTers who NES often seem to miss the point that NESing isn't necessarily all about "winning" or "having fun" and isn't even necessarily a "game", as such - and I contend that such IOTers are slightly missing the point.
Now, of course, most NESers probably consciously think nothing along those lines, and they're entitled to their views, but I think it's an important element of the matter. IOTs and NESes merging would take some of the light-hearted fun out of IOTs when NESers tried to play them seriously; and would take some of the (relatively) serious intellectualism out of some significant NESes when IOTers tried to play them too light-heartedly.
Well said!
Changing my vote to yes because Crezeth is good at logicing.
When I was in EQ's game, I didn't treat it like an IOT. I feel like others would do the same, except for a few people I'd name except then my post would get deleted.
When I was in EQ's game, I didn't treat it like an IOT. I feel like others would do the same, except for a few people I'd name except then my post would get deleted.
Well, since you raise it (and I wouldn't say this otherwise): weren't you the one who kicked up an awful OOC fuss when the Netherlands and the Confederation partitioned Polish China and more or less complained that people would never do such a thing in an IOT, demonstrating IOT conventions' lack of verisimilitude in that regard, in a debate that anyone who reads EQ's background thread covering the latter half of the 19th century can see? and am I not right in thinking that your diplomacy was not anything above the ordinary, and your stories, if there were any, unmemorable? I see no particular way in which you failed to treat it as an IOTer normally might approach a NES. And - even considering that - you were a good deal better at it than some IOTers I've seen at NESing.
Crezth
i knew you were a real man of the left
Don't start a quote-war if you don't want a quote-war.
I'm zeroing in on this point and just this point vis-a-vis quote war because you said an important word: "educate." This is why I don't think a merger would be a problem over the long run as people play the same games and learn. There is no imaginable downside to cross-pollination in lieu of stagnancy if we believe IOTs and NESes have something to learn from one another. As somebody who believes NESes are not the be-all and end-all of geopolitical forum gaming, I think this is so.
Details that would still be there after a merger. The thing about NESes is that they cater to all tastes, from the distinctly IOT-like to the story-telling sort.
SymphonyD made a science of it a few years back - he attempted to categorize all NESes into four varieties. Although he eventually discarded this effort as a misguided endeavor, the lessons remain with us today: NESing is hugely variable and it is fundamentally this quality that brings IOTs fully under their umbrella. You could run a game with all of an IOT's rules as a NES and nobody would be any wiser - your hemming and hawing that the players would "treat it differently" only matter insofar as what behaviors the mod seeks to invoke. Storyist NESers don't play DiploNES like a story NES, and boardgamers don't play N3S like a boardgame.
I think you're sorely underestimating the tendency of NESers to defy your attempts to categorize them. NESing is correctly thought of as a venue, not a genre. This would be like someone attempting to convince us that adventure games and strategy games require separate discussion forums because the games are too different for anything less, a notion that the Other Games forum would do short work in dispatching as nonsense.
I think this is based on a lot of assumptions that, in my opinion, are hogwash - but you're entitled to yours. The main assumption is you're applying a lot of behavioral tendencies to NESers that just are not true in aggregate. Maybe they are true in some specific instances, but as a general rule it is by no means a required quality of being a NESer, which is the important point: if NESers have any recognizable behavioral patterns, they are learned behavior, and that is not intrinsic to the separation of NESes and IOTs.
To give a few examples of where your assumptions fail to describe the gestalt (and keep in mind that these are exceptions is the crux of my point):
1. competitive, light-hearted fun is a no-no (CNES, ZPNESV)
2. a pride in intellectualism (Capto Iugulum (hands down the most popular NES to date, which proudly defies the "intellectuals" of #nes who for most of its history have treated Capto Iugulum with derision and scorn for its lack of attention to historical/economical/political rigor), LeBoshWade NES (a joke NES which nevertheless was not shut down and had players, updates, and a GM - if there's any other requirement for a NES I've never heard of it), SilliNES 2 (new and active, proudly eschews any type of intellectual rigor in favor of light-hearted roleplay))
3. a distaste in gaming for gaming's sake (DipNES 5 (this is just one of them, to date there have been well over half a dozen DipNES variants), CivIVNES (fairly, an AAR by any other name, but nevertheless takes up residence in a forum that, allegedly, has no place for it))
Now that's quite a list, but the most crucial thing to remember is that this is not a complete cross-section of all NESes. There are plenty of NESes that fall in line with what you've identified as NESes general traits - End of Empires III deserves mention - but my point is not that you are completely wrong so much as it is that your assumptions are in error. Worries about bringing IOTs into NESing are mostly unfounded because IOTs are already there, and they are already being played. We just don't call them IOTs.
As for any other differences in groupthink or acquired behaviors that might be spread through osmosis following a sure combination of the groups, I say good! Come what may! I think NESers have lots to learn from IOTers and vice versa. At any rate, I certainly don't think a merger would be, how did Kozmos put it: "mixing special needs kids with regular kids to the detriment of both."
Seriously, that's just rude.
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Personally I was always repelled by the loud minority of NESers that just plainly speaking didn't want anybody from IOT coming onto their board. I honestly don't see much of a difference between the two as games, and wouldn't mind a merge especially if it got more heads in my narratively driven space game I'm trying to run in IOT. But seriously, all the bigotry really ruined my immersion when attempting to play NES's and this thread only shows me it's still there.
Special needs? Seriously?
Special needs? Seriously?
NESing isn't the be-all and end-all of geopolitical forum gaming. (At least, I assume it isn't, and I'll take your word as confirming that; I don't belong to any other forums.) I do, on the other hand, think you have too much faith in IOTers not damaging NESes and even in NESers not potentially damaging IOTs. However, that is a belief of yours that chiefly stems, I think, from what you have said below, and so it is more important that I deal with that.
As for your examples, I grant what you say they show in terms of not displaying some characteristics of NESes, but I would say that IOTs are likely to display none of those said characteristics, whereas it is a rare, and, I would say, not a good NES that possesses none of those characteristics.
I also dispute some of those examples.
CI does show intellectualism of a kind; we seriously dispute the issues out of a regard for historical likelihood and probability. As you know, I have played in CI myself through almost its entire course, and enjoyed it - for intellectual reasons! Of course it has intrinsic problems from this standpoint in the eyes of some, but verisimilitude and quasi-historical logic are central to it. There are also opportunities for some interesting, complex, diplomacy and war plans, and the fact that it hasn't died makes it possible to carry out long-term plans, which is - intellectually - brilliant.
LeBoshWadeNES isn't a NES - is it? and if it is, it is a very exceptional one. DipNESes are games of diplomacy put there for the benefit of NESers, and CivIVNES is an AAR put there for NESers, respectively out of convenience, but I suspect that most of us would hesitate to say in good faith that they are NESes, as such, so much as games that happen to be there because the NESing community likes playing games of other sorts together occasionally too.
I can't say about CNES, ZPNES V, or SilliNES 2, because I don't know anything about them! I will say about Daftpanzer's NESes in general, though, that they display an remarkable beauty of writing and illustration that is not a feature of IOT.
If you can cite a decent quorum of NESes that do not display either intellectualism or seriousness, or any aspiration to beauty in writing, that I cannot in good faith dispute them being NESes, and that have nothing beyond a game to them, then that might advance your point; if you can show me a few examples of NESes that could very well be IOTs, that would advance your point too, and would require me to think further. (You keep on saying that IOTs are already there. I don't see them.) As it is, though, I think my - very unrestrictive - criteria that I think NESes tend to fulfil some of, but IOTs strongly tend not to fulfil some of, stand firm - and undefied by these NESers that you think defy my categorisation.
Well, I disagree; not all acquired behaviours are positive.
I absolutely agree with you on that one!
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
I support NES-IOT merger, whether official or unofficial.
In the end, we all play games and tell stories to have fun. Doesn't really matter who you do it with, as long as games are played, stories told, and fun is had.
In the end, we all play games and tell stories to have fun. Doesn't really matter who you do it with, as long as games are played, stories told, and fun is had.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Crezth
i knew you were a real man of the left
I don't think much can be gained from further conversing with you, spry, at least not in this tit-for-tat fashion, so I'll just say my part. You keep insisting that all NESes share qualities as a genre but I don't consider that born out by the evidence. There are over a thousand NESes and, as I have shown, they don't all toe the line of carefully cultivated intellectualism and delectable attention to the craft.
And even if they did, it is a behavioral more that is hardly anathema to successful unification. Continued separation would be predicated on the notion that the sophistication of our gameplay is fundamentally incompatible with that of the IOTers, and there's no sufficient evidence for that at all. You charge that a union could be damaging to both games but I find that something of a suspect claim: plurality is the foodstuffs of invention, and if our unification was hard to swallow at first, in the end it would only make us better - as NESers, IOTers, or human beings.
And even if they did, it is a behavioral more that is hardly anathema to successful unification. Continued separation would be predicated on the notion that the sophistication of our gameplay is fundamentally incompatible with that of the IOTers, and there's no sufficient evidence for that at all. You charge that a union could be damaging to both games but I find that something of a suspect claim: plurality is the foodstuffs of invention, and if our unification was hard to swallow at first, in the end it would only make us better - as NESers, IOTers, or human beings.
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If you could vote a post in which I partook in bad mouthing anyone in NES or NES collectively I'd be thoroughly surprised. To me it just seems like you antagonize all IOTers based on the fact a few are as rude to you as you are to them.
In any case I'm always willing to attempt to join an NES if it has the kind if setting I like. I'm not all that picky to the game style so long as it has a setting I appreciate.
Crezth: I think I've said my part already. You're right, though, that there's probably little to be gained from more of this.
I suppose it's a good thing that we discussed it, since people who read the debate may think about it for themselves and look critically in the future at the differences and similarities between future IOTs and NESes, and thinking about this may cause people, on reflection, to come to a good and sensible consensus on the subject sometime.
I suppose it's a good thing that we discussed it, since people who read the debate may think about it for themselves and look critically in the future at the differences and similarities between future IOTs and NESes, and thinking about this may cause people, on reflection, to come to a good and sensible consensus on the subject sometime.
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