A Petition to Merge NES-IOT

[hoplitejoe]

I think the stats vs story distinction is nonsense, and wrong in far too many cases.
I prefer to think of the difference as more of one as purpose. IOTs are a game in which a story is used to make it more fun, whereas NES is more a story made through game elements. Evidence for this can be found in where the games originated, IOT started with people messing about in an OT map thread, moved to Forum games then moved to it's own subforum. NES started in a Storiesand Tales sub forum before moving to there own subforum (probably).
This distinction isn't perfect, I do know that RISK and Diplomacy esq games do run in NES, and some GMs in IOT would probably like their game to be a story writing, but it does seem to explain the majority of the differences.

As for the merger, I still think it will kill IOT or just turn IOT into NES 2 but I am not sure if I care enough about IOT to protest anymore. It would be nice if certain NESers could keep their elitism to themselves though.

 

[ChiefDesigner]

As you accept may be the case, "excluding others" isn't the point at all. IOTers can, and regularly do, join NESes. However, most NESers, by and large - and for a variety of interrelated reasons the exact natures of which are basically irrelevant, but, all taken together, add up to a body of opinion against merging that should not be gone against - feel that this is a bad idea, in my case because NESing has a particular point and ethos that IOT does not share. This point and ethos I do not want diluted; it is not significantly diluted by IOTers crossing the line into NESing (which is generally a positive thing), but would be diluted by the demolition of this line in a forum reorganisation. Such a thing as a forum merge should not go ahead, in any case, without the near unanimous consent of both sides, and we certainly don't have much support at all in NES for a merger, let alone anything approaching a consensus.

Seconding Spry's point, here. Many IOTers have joined NES and have contributed a great deal to gameplay and storytelling. My intuition is, however, that if the poll is broken down, you will find that by and large, people who hang out in IOT are for, and people who hang out in NES are against.

---

Speaking for myself only, having lurked in the IOT forum on occasion, there are parts of the IOT culture that I find disrespectful, damaging to good gameplay and good sportsmanship. There was an argument awhile back about the legitimacy of posting of chat transcripts and PMs to support an OOC argument, which was IMO settled in the wrong way and in the wrong direction.

I think that an influx of IOTers into NES would be a great thing -- fresh blood is excellent! This is not what the poll is about, though; the poll is about running IOTs in NES, which is a very different point.

 

[Tani Coyote]

The difference between NES and IOT is mostly appearances, personality, and community rather than the games themselves. The narrative vs stats thing is bullcrap. IOT started out as being purely narrative, after all.

Really, the biggest thing standing between a merger is the hostility of some NESers towards IOTers.

This.

There would be some resistance to the merge on both sides, but, as was said, leave it to the players.

In the end it would be beneficial for all of them to be under one roof. As it stands, a customer is being forced to travel several kilometers between two grocery stores because one has goods the other doesn't. Why not merge them into one store?

It would help all the games ultimately because then the demand bases for both would be fused. If for some reason a game doesn't appeal, that's easy; one need not join it.

Let us consider. Player A is an IOTer, player B is an NESer. I am fond of both. I would love to see them in a single game, but they are pretty much exclusive to their subforum... ergo I can only have one of them at a time. If there was a single forum, however, the obstacle (that seems trivial but is actually very important) of hopping between subforums is eliminated, and A and B are likely to play in the same game together.

 

[ChiefDesigner]

This.

There would be some enmity, but, as was said, leave it to the players.

In the end it would be beneficial for all of them to be under one roof. As it stands, a customer is being forced to travel several kilometers between two grocery stores because one has goods the other doesn't. Why not merge them into one store?

It would help all the games ultimately because then the demand bases for both would be fused. If one doesn't want to mingle with the other community, that's easy; one merely need not play those particular games. But for those who aren't afraid to be part of both...

No! Playstyle matters! Consensus on the form and the rules matters! The fact that most of IOT doesn't seem to recognize this argues against a merger, not for one.

The bickering, the hurt feelings and the ragequits will take place in the successor of While We Wait/Don't Cry for Me, Argentina, and all of the other points of contact between IOT and NES. It's not as simple as "don't click on these threads"; it's the interactions between the two that are so problematic.

The argument of "don't click on IOT threads" is a very nice straw man, because it's not the argument I'm making at all.

 

[Ailedhoo]

No! Playstyle matters! Consensus on the form and the rules matters! The fact that most of IOT doesn't seem to recognize this argues against a merger, not for one.

Arguments of "us vs. them" is not a logistical consensus. By how does one judge people of "not recognising the rules?" We have indeed had an entire episode on the nature of GM rule ship, as did NES some time after us.

The calling of "IOT culture will damage NES!" can be classed as fear mongering; setting two camps just for the sake of "us vs. them," a very damaging path indeed.

What is at stake here is a set to help make NES/IOT a grander experience. I hence cite Tani in notion here.

Playstyle does matter and nothing damages playstyle more than "us vs. them."

 

[Luckymoose]

Playstyle is very different, and as Spry pointed out the ethos of NESing does not match that of IOT. The people in favor of a merger are generally inactive NESers or active IOTers, while the party against are the most active NESers (such as myself) who do not wish to be subjected to IOTisms. There is nothing wrong with the current split as it keeps your games with your people and our games with our people. Only three NESers, at this time, have voted for a merger and none of them are actively participating in the community. Two of them voted, clearly, to troll.

We are different. Stop denying it, please.

 

[Angst]

So I am not actively participating in the NESing community or I troll?

Also, "I'm not racist, I just don't think people of different colors should interbreed".

 

[Luckymoose]

So I am not actively participating in the NESing community or I troll?

Also, "I'm not racist, I just don't think people of different colors should interbreed".

Not at all what I said. You are fairly inactive, yes, and we all know you hold opposing opinions to the majority anyway. The two I was referring to were Dachs and Kraznaya, both of whom are inactive and well-known for their trolling ways in such polls.

What we have here is people, even Lord Iggy--who is one of the most reasonable and nice guys in our community--voting against the merger for the same reasons Chiefdesigner and Spry and the rest of us. The merger helps no one but IOTers. It actually hurts NESers, diluting our experience to a point that we may no longer be able to happily continue on these forums at all.

 

[Ailedhoo]

Playstyle is very different, and as Spry pointed out the ethos of NESing does not match that of IOT. The people in favor of a merger are generally inactive NESers or active IOTers, while the party against are the most active NESers (such as myself) who do not wish to be subjected to IOTisms. There is nothing wrong with the current split as it keeps your games with your people and our games with our people. Only three NESers, at this time, have voted for a merger and none of them are actively participating in the community. Two of them voted, clearly, to troll.

"They are no votes" is clearly not a argument in this matter. Special mention to calling one a "troll."

We are different. Stop denying it, please.

The forumism set here is... questionable and only set to "us vs. them." In fact one could mirror the "stop denying" argument back at those who look at two shades of blue and call one of those shades "red." Such is how "stop denying" can be set.

NES and IOT have a similar nature; they are not alien to each other.

 

[Kozmos]

So I am not actively participating in the NESing community or I troll?

Also, "I'm not racist, I just don't think people of different colors should interbreed".

That is about the dumbest parallel you could make. A better one is mixing special needs kids with regular kids to the detriment of both.

And I don't think I am generalizing when I have seen on more than one occasion IOTers act completely outside of all reason.

Moderator Action: Infracted for trolling, and the ableist overtones aren't exactly pretty either.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Ailedhoo]

That is about the dumbest parallel you could make. A better one is mixing special needs kids with regular kids to the detriment of both.

...and so you go to more bigotry?! I am sorry but you have just shot your argument in the foot by resenting of ableism, a form of discrimination like sexism and racism.

 

[Luckymoose]

"They are no votes" is clearly not a argument in this matter. Special mention to calling one a "troll."



The forumism set here is... questionable and only set to "us vs. them." In fact one could mirror the "stop denying" argument back at those who look at two shades of blue and call one of those shades "red." Such is how "stop denying" can be set.

NES and IOT have a similar nature; they are not alien to each other.

Two of them are well-known for doing this kind of thing. I know. I've known them for years, literally. There is no anti-IOT in our comments here. You have different games with different character. Our forum would only suffer from your inclusion. You'd benefit from exposure, but we'd be crushed under the weight.

Save NESing by staying in your subforum.

 

[Angst]

SAVE NESING THE END IS NIGH

Not at all what I said. You are fairly inactive, yes, and we all know you hold opposing opinions to the majority anyway. The two I was referring to were Dachs and Kraznaya, both of whom are inactive and well-known for their trolling ways in such polls.

I'm actually not aware of how inactive I supposedly am. I'm not a lot on #nes, but that's about it. I'm participating in N3S, every DaftNES that shows up, I regularly join NESes that pop up, but it's difficult to demonstrate merely because the ones I've recently joined are all dead. As is, I mostly think you discount me on the grounds for not being active on #nes, I assume? For you can hardly discount my forum activity.

What we have here is people, even Lord Iggy--who is one of the most reasonable and nice guys in our community--voting against the merger for the same reasons Chiefdesigner and Spry and the rest of us. The merger helps no one but IOTers. It actually hurts NESers, diluting our experience to a point that we may no longer be able to happily continue on these forums at all.

I'm very aware of their positions and to be blunt, I find yours quite different from both Iggy's and what Spry formulated. Infact Iggy's not a representative of elitist NESing at all.

And the merger helps everyone. NESing is still somewhat of an old man's club. If we want it to remain a thing, we need new blood, and this is an opportunity very, very present.

It's perfectly possible to host assumptiously "complex" games simply by stating in the OP that certain behavioral premises are to be respected.

That is about the dumbest parallel you could make. A better one is mixing special needs kids with regular kids to the detriment of both.

And I don't think I am generalizing when I have seen on more than one occasion IOTers act completely outside of all reason.

Ok I admit I was wrong about your positions. This is not about racism. This is about IOTers apparently being special needs kids. How disrespectful of me.

 

[Luckymoose]

I'm actually not aware of how inactive I supposedly am. I'm not a lot on #nes, but that's about it. I'm participating in N3S, every DaftNES that shows up, I regularly join NESes that pop up, but it's difficult to demonstrate merely because the ones I've recently joined are all dead. As is, I mostly think you discount me on the grounds for not being active on #nes, I assume? For you can hardly discount my forum activity.



I'm very aware of their positions and to be blunt, I find yours quite different from both Iggy's and what Spry formulated. Infact Iggy's not a representative of elitist NESing at all.

And the merger helps everyone. NESing is still somewhat of an old man's club. If we want it to remain a thing, we need new blood, and this is an opportunity very, very present.

It's perfectly possible to host assumptiously "complex" games simply by stating in the OP that certain behavioral premises are to be respected.

You're terribly wrong about this. I have the same opinion as Iggy and Spry and Chiefdesigner, etc. We aren't an old man's club. We have tons of new NESers that came here all by themselves. If IOTers want to NES, they can come NES, but don't force a billion IOT threads on our subforum. It would push the less active threads, like End of Empires, off the front page and severely deplete new player attention to it.

I'm not being elitist, and you saying that shows how out of touch you are with our community. If you want to IOT, go do it in their subforum. But forcing IOT on NESer by merger without the majority of NESers supporting you is harmful to our community. It does not help us in the least. It helps them get exposure, yes, but it only dilutes our experience. The vast majority of IOTers, as I have seen from studying their games, are not even looking for the same experience that NESers are. If you want a different game, you aren't going to get along well with NESers and issues will arise from that.

And yes, being active on #nes is a fine way of being tuned into what most NESers view on this kind of thing. It is resoundingly negative, by the way. You're one of the few that wants this. And without considering the consequences of a merger, you are trying to tell us on the opposite side that we are wrong and calling us "racists" and "elitists."

 

[KaiserElectric]

I'd like to point out to the NES doomsday prophets that while NES is a subforum on its own, the IOT is itself the subforum of the Other Games subforum. Essentially, you're claiming that you'll lose your Reese's Peanut Butter cups if you drop them in a bowl full of Skittles.

The only reason the NES genre will ever die is if the NES community loses interest, and given the arguments here, I find that highly unlikely.

 

[Double A]

No, and we sure as hell don't need your games flooding our subforum. IOTs are largely stat-based and simple games without the depth of story driven gameplay, and everyone see this. Most IOTers that have made the jump are so out of the loop that they cause more problems with out of character and destructive play than anyone would like. It would only be worse if we were forced to let you all participate constantly. Having two subforums keeps most of the peace. NESers have very little to no interest in playing IOTs. We don't need forty of your games pushing NESes out of the way with your spam fests.

We love you too man.

 

[Angst]

You're terribly wrong about this. I have the same opinion as Iggy and Spry and Chiefdesigner, etc. We aren't an old man's club. We have tons of new NESers that came here all by themselves. If IOTers want to NES, they can come NES, but don't force a billion IOT threads on our subforum. It would push the less active threads, like End of Empires, off the front page and severely deplete new player attention to it.

Honestly, meh. New blood good.

I'm not being elitist, and you saying that shows how out of touch you are with our community.

"You are inherently unable to define a group because you're not part of that group"

If you want to IOT, go do it in their subforum. But forcing IOT on NESer by merger without the majority of NESers supporting you is harmful to our community. It does not help us in the least. It helps them get exposure, yes, but it only dilutes our experience. The vast majority of IOTers, as I have seen from studying their games, are not even looking for the same experience that NESers are. If you want a different game, you aren't going to get along well with NESers and issues will arise from that.

Will you please stop raging. Lookie here.

I think I'm in favor of the merger, but not when it's as close as it currently is in the poll.

And yes, being active on #nes is a fine way of being tuned into what most NESers view on this kind of thing.

So let me get this straight. If I actually NES it does not matter. In order to be trueblood NESer I have to spend time on a procrastination channel? It's more important than participating in the games?

 

[Luckymoose]

I'd like to point out to the NES doomsday prophets that while NES is a subforum on its own, the IOT is itself the subforum of the Other Games subforum. Essentially, you're claiming that you'll lose your Reese's Peanut Butter cups if you drop them in a bowl full of Skittles.

The only reason the NES genre will ever die is if the NES community loses interest, and given the arguments here, I find that highly unlikely.

There is a forced inclusion rule on CFC now. We can't run quality control without being banned or having our NESes closed down. We are forced to merge, forced to include you, and forced to watch our hobby smashed by people who don't care. It is hobby rape.

 

[Tani Coyote]

I'd like to point out to the NES doomsday prophets that while NES is a subforum on its own, the IOT is itself the subforum of the Other Games subforum. Essentially, you're claiming that you'll lose your Reese's Peanut Butter cups if you drop them in a bowl full of Skittles.

The only reason the NES genre will ever die is if the NES community loses interest, and given the arguments here, I find that highly unlikely.

More or less this. As it stands, we already get to choose which games we do and do not want to be a part in. If one wants a simple game, they join that, if one wants a more complex, story-driven game, they join that.

It's no different than how if you're not comfortable with a GM's management style, you don't join their game.

 

[Double A]

There is a forced inclusion rule on CFC now. We can't run quality control without being banned or having our NESes closed down. We are forced to merge, forced to include you, and forced to watch our hobby smashed by people who don't care. It is hobby rape.

Because if you hate someone, they totally don't hate you back and will join each and every one of your games. Oooh, or maybe they DO hate you and are joining just to spite you.