[BTS] A proud history of failed Deity games?

[Fish Man]

You know how early combat is kinda important?

Spoiler :

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I was able to chop a warrior and then cold-whipped another one, so we actually survived. But still. Made me not want to continue. The map sucked arse anyway. No food. Only jungle.

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Think I'm unfortunately getting fed up of the game from all these dumb attempts at playing Deity.

I think a problem is that you keep rolling the worst starts...this save and the Alexander save you started a bit ago are probably bottom 10% of starts, period, because of how jungled in and resourceless they are. Lain himself would have a moderately tough time beating them, not to mention you. Instead of aiming to try to force through every deity game you generate, maybe at least set some conditions for what you're willing to play?

 

[Qactus]

...
Think I'm unfortunately getting fed up of the game from all these dumb attempts at playing Deity.

Try this one! Really nice map. Standard/Normal/NHNE

Spoiler Mapscript :

Big&Small, MassiveContinents/Tiny Islands, Medium Sealevel

Spoiler Start :

 

[Henrik75]

Play noble's clubs maps on deity, they all have pretty nice starts and usually decent neighbours, I find noble's club maps typically easier than random generated ones.

 

[civac]

How much easier would it be if you turned barbs off? The AI surely does not understand the consequences of barbs off. Or do the barbs hinder the deity AI significantly despite it having a gazillion units?

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Play noble's clubs maps on deity, they all have pretty nice starts and usually decent neighbours, I find noble's club maps typically easier than random generated ones.

On average, yes, and that is by design, but there are also some that nobody won, even with perfect map knowledge and unlimited attempts. Just accept that not all games on deity can be won.

 

[Pangaea]

Yeah, probably. But hurts when you need Hunting too.

Tried a new game. Several. This one ended up as semi-isolation. Maybe somebody will find it interesting.
All random again, but changed to Temperate. We're Suleiman, and it turns out we are semi isolated. Not with an aggressive civ.

Spoiler :

Don't think I played very well, and was unlucky with some tech choices. Eventually I decided to try to play it as a regular isolation, and beelined Astro. Late with libraries because there is pretty lousy food on the map, although the capital looked kickass (I settled 1W). Also didn't help that I closed borders at some point to prevent settlement past me, and it took forever for open borders to be possible again. Much longer than I expected. Probably not worth it tbh.

I went for triple bulbs since we are PHI. Optics in 200AD, and Astro in 400AD. Got four caravels out, but haven't met anybody yet when Astro landed. Infrastructure is unfortunately rather horrendous, because I felt like I couldn't whip much. That is also why I haven't tried to get to the islands, and Mansa actually settled the one south. Very lucky he was too. There was a barb galley (part of the reason I avoided the place), but he managed to land the settler party before his galley was sunk! This happened in the same inter-turn.

Quite a few GGs have been born elsewhere, so although Buddhism is huge, there is at least one big war. Must be 5-6 GGs by now. A million wonders too, and very large cities, so I'm mostly concerned about the tech situation when I find somebody. My tech rate is pathetic after all, well under 200/turn.

Oh yeah, I was also hamstrung early on by many invading barbs. Good defensive terrain, and fights while sitting inside cities, so we actually got through it without losses, and killed 4 archers and 1 warrior.

A few screens:

Spoiler :

 

[Pangaea]

Play noble's clubs maps on deity, they all have pretty nice starts and usually decent neighbours, I find noble's club maps typically easier than random generated ones.

It's possible I was unlucky, but I tried the most recent one, and got crushed. When the tech pace is out of this world, it's impossible.

Downloaded the sury map posted above, thanks. Will check it out later. However, Big and small can get very labour intensive due to a million islands.

 

[Fippy]

On average, yes, and that is by design, but there are also some that nobody won, even with perfect map knowledge and unlimited attempts. Just accept that not all games on deity can be won.

Where does that come from, i can remember only one map with an universal cannot be won seal.
It's ofc not from NC but Charly peninsula vs. paradise land Monty.

 

[Fish Man]

Where does that come from, i can remember only one map with an universal cannot be won seal.
It's ofc not from NC but Charly peninsula vs. paradise land Monty.

Didn't @drewisfat win that completely legit with no reloads? Granted, map knowledge and multiple attempts, yes, but if we're talking "no idea how a map is from t0" then plenty of them should be unwinnable, or have win chances so close to 0% even with perfect play that they may as well be.

If we're REALLY talking unwinnable, Lain's Tokugawa isolation certainly takes the cake, because every single AI runs away with the game and you can do not a single thing about it from t0-t125 at the earliest, not to mention you have a really garbage island to work with, which has astoundingly almost 0 redeeming qualities. Because the biggest "landmass" is actually split into two, I suspect the AIs run away so much because there's immediate contact but everyone gets intercontinental traderoutes instantly due to there being one tile of coast splitting the main continent (and, like, Bismarck/Asoka/Jayoh have seriously strong starts). And then, of course, there's Mansa, who will trade everything he has away and then promptly peacevassal to 15-city Sitting Bull. Most of the time, everyone will get optics before you even have a chance to meet all 6 AIs, you'll be beaten to circumnavigation, and Bismarck will get 1000AD infantry while Joao blazes away to superconductors and plastics by 1400AD. Even if you tech and whip and invade perfectly, there's just no way.

I actually managed to beat the game, but by going further than I had ever before in reloading. I turned "new random seed on reload" and then reloaded an early save 4000-5000 times until I got a gems pop on my single mine. With the added commerce and happiness, I was able to be slightly faster to optics, leading me to actually be able to trade that just a little bit. Then I invaded with cuirs by reloading until Joao/Asoka didn't go rifling, and then reloaded every cuir fight until I won at 10% odds all the time. After capping them both, it was pretty straightforward, but up to that point you would've had to have astronomical luck to even land before almost everyone was close to assembly line and stuff.

 

[Qactus]

Hmm, the toughest Noble's Club game I remember was one where Shaka was your neighbour and the other continent was full of trading tech lovers. The mapmaker had intended to swap Shaka with one of the overseas AIs but then forgot to make the edit. He eventually did swap them later on, but left both sets of saves available for people to play. I assume the original one would be quite impossible on Deity.
I can't remember the leader though, so it would be hard to find the thread. Maybe it rings a bell? Would have been at least 3 years ago...

 

[Fippy]

Unwinnable means 0% or maybe 1% but you might get lucky later on most maps, so they are not totally hopeless.
Lain almost did beat Asoka and i see Artillery queued up before which can work miracles, so i think there would be a chance if AI rng plays out differently.

Anyways i know we can create maps like that, but my point was more how NC doesn't.

 

[Kjotleik]

...The mapmaker had intended to swap Shaka with one of the overseas AIs but then forgot to make the edit. He eventually did swap them later on, but left both sets of saves available for people to play.

I have only two NC games where I have downloaded two versions of the same challenge: NC 171 Hammurabi and NC 217 Lincoln. Maybe one of those?

 

[Qactus]

I have only two NC games where I have downloaded two versions of the same challenge: NC 171 Hammurabi and NC 217 Lincoln. Maybe one of those?

Ha, you really found it. Yes, Hammurabi 171 was the one. From the thread it seems only yyeah tried on Deity

 

[Fish Man]

Unwinnable means 0% or maybe 1% but you might get lucky later on most maps, so they are not totally hopeless.
Lain almost did beat Asoka and i see Artillery queued up before which can work miracles, so i think there would be a chance if AI rng plays out differently.

Anyways i know we can create maps like that, but my point was more how NC doesn't.

"Almost beat Asoka" meant he still had to deal with Bismarck running around with panzers and Joao on robotics soon...

And yeah, NC is generally more forgiving. The Alex NC is "moderately hard" but all Mansa NCs in recent memory are pretty straightforward and simple?

 

[drewisfat]

Didn't @drewisfat win that completely legit with no reloads? Granted, map knowledge and multiple attempts, yes, but if we're talking "no idea how a map is from t0" then plenty of them should be unwinnable, or have win chances so close to 0% even with perfect play that they may as well be.

Yes, but with a diplo win. All VCs are not equal, I use a scale of Conquest/Dom > Space > Nukes > Diplo |>| Culture > AP, where culture/AP are too cheesy to count. Diplo at least requiring you're first to UN or have highest population, so some form of dominance in the late game. Charlemagne was actually an above average leader with that start: IMP for the settler spam, PRO to survive Monty and Rathauses for island grabbing / sushi. It was actually my first attempt trying to HA rush Monty. Most attempts were me trying to win GLh and survive Monty with archers or just try to rex around him on the other side of the continent. Replaying wasn't essential for luck (though I was lucky) but to know where horses were. It would make 0 sense to scout them, rush a settler there, and rush AH without map knowledge. The fascinating part of that game was that worker first is a blunder you probably can't recover from - in fact building a worker before T75 is probably a mistake.

I'm not sure the Toku iso game really qualifies. I've seen worse isolated islands. That one has two small rivers that offer great cottage potential. Lain is unwilling to use nukes, which is a big handicap in an iso vs runaways situation.

 

[Fippy]

Yup, i guess it depends on if making moves we would never do without previous knowledge counts as winning.

Then again i doubt it's difficult to create really unwinnable maps where none of that helps.
Pick 6 pacifist AIs including Mansa, and wait until you sit on a horrible Iso island with let's say Charly.
I have seen some where i gave up very fast..like a bit of seafood in a corner that cannot even be shared, and then all jungle starts.
No happy no rivers no nothing, what will you do

 

[Pangaea]

Continued the game above 100 more years and met all AIs. It looks hard allright. Lost circumnav too.

Spoiler :

Did a bunch of trades at least, and had to give Mansa Astro. Didn't have monopoly on it anyway. By the time I met De Gaulle, I had nothing on him, so he had Astro already. Waited a turn extra so I could triple change civics to HR-OR-Buro.

Spoiler :

Lib looks lost

Darius was the last AI found, and he's at war with Kublai and Julius. Darius declared on Julius, then Kublai was bribed in.

No wonder Kublai is doing well. He has four golds and double gems.

Don't think I want to take on this. I have zero infrastructure, Lib will surely be lost, and who knows what will happen between now and whenever I'd be able to declare in 500 years or whenever.

 

[konata_LS]

Agree with above. It seems you often roll some tough starts. Some leaders you choose to play are also not the best choice to challenge a new difficulty. For example, Alex's PHI trait is certainly nice, but the Greek starting techs are weak, especially for Deity where the techs are more expensive than lower levels.

If you think playing as Capac is too cheesy, why don't you start a Pangaea map and choose a FIN leader? Willem, Darius, Hannibal or Vicky are all quite good. Nothing wrong to choose a FIN leader + strong start when one just moves up to a new difficulty level. For example, you could play as Darius and generate a Pangaea or Continents map, that would make your Deity attempts less tough. You may also add suit and tie to all your mounted units if you like, as you did with NC 205 . After you win several Deity games with FIN leaders, then think about playing as other leaders with a less powerful starting place.

 

[Pangaea]

Haha, funny you remember that game. It was an amusing picture

Think I just wanted to try completely random games, with random leaders, with handpicking stuff, to get the 'true' Deity experience. But you make good points. Some of these starts have been pretty rough, though I didn't really think of the Alex start (from the other thread) as a particularly brutal one. It looks okay, at least on the surface. A nice river, (dry) corn and some later resources, plus a fair bit of forests. However, maybe I ought to step back from the brink a little bit, and do the semi-cheesy thing of handpicking the leader, for example a FIN one, and then try to get a good starting location. Just seemed to me it would be less interesting to read and write about, if the win is more guaranteed from the start. At least for those of you who are expert Deity players, like Fippy, krikav, Lain, Henrik and so on.

Thinking about trying out the Sury map since I don't really want to continue with the Suleiman one, it looks too hard to get progress. B&S can be a micro nightmare as I implied earlier, but maybe it will be interesting up to 1AD or something. Otherwise I should go back to those BOTM games I have half-played, so I don't forget about the deadline (again)

 

[Pangaea]

Big&Small, MassiveContinents/Tiny Islands, Medium Sealevel

Oof. 1144 land tiles. Welcome 18-city runaway tech beasts?