I still recall a 20 hour game once where I accidentally voted the AI to an AP victory.
Jeez, how did that Axe get City Raider II on T49?
Any DOW before 2000BC is instant loss.
You got screwed!
If you wish to keep going, it might be possible with voodoo.
Gift Edirne to Churchill since he has 3 cities.
DOW Churchill.
Move Warrior to 1S1E of Edirne after it teleport east towards your capital.
On the next turn, do nothing. Hope the 4 Axes don't move into Edirne.
Then next turn, 2 turns after the DOW, take Edirne with Warrior.
Churchill will talk ceasefire/peace due the the 10 war success from the city capture and 2 turns of war (iRefuseToTalkWarThreshold = 8), so give him Edirne for 10 turns of peace.
You don't have nearly enough power ratio with Churchill to get a Cease Fire with only 10/0 war success? (pretty sure)
If you have Bronze Working, go ahead and whip Edirne to Size 1 with a Scout whip if you have both Bronze Working and Hunting before the gift and DOW.
Giving a Size 2 city to an AI for 2 turns that can whip an Archer is very dangerous.
With this, you might be able to continue on with 2 cities and an Annoyed neighbor with axes, but even that feels hopelss.
Maybe someone can explain real quick why an A.I. chooses to attack so early. What is the difference between this DoW and a DoW where you are a "land target", when you have 8 or more adjactant culture border tiles.
I am refering here to your excellent guide kaitzilla.
Maybe someone can explain real quick why an A.I. chooses to attack so early. What is the difference between this DoW and a DoW where you are a "land target", when you have 8 or more adjactant culture border tiles.
I am refering here to your excellent guide kaitzilla.
I am a bit fuzzy on if the AI rolls 1 time each turn for war or 3 times for war each turn (Total War, Limited War, Dogpile War if a war is already going on?), in which case the warmongers don't have a 2% chance to plot war each turn, but a 6% chance!
I am also not sure how a demand being rebuked triggers war plotting and what rolls are involved there.
To get a turn 49 DOW, land target had nothing to do with it.
It is merely the AI starting to roll for war super early because they became able to build 2 units that can attack in their capital. (Usually Spear and Axe) Horse is not enough for an AI to start plotting war because it only unlocks Chariot, 1 of 2 units needed to attack and thus start plotting.
The AI needs to be able to build at least 2 offensive units (UNITAIs ATTACK_CITY, COUNTER, RESERVE and PILLAGE) in its capital. Units of the types Axeman, Spearman, Chariot qualify here (basically everything better than Warriors and Archers), so once it manages to hook up the necessary strategic resources it will drop that strategy and start rolling the dice. With the 2 starting settlers and discounts for training more plus the fast teching I think Deities will reach that point 1000 yrs earlier.
Basically, any AI that gets Copper hooked up (and has Hunting) will start rolling for war and then go down DanF's decision tree.
Deity AI can do this extremely early with super fast Bronze Working, starting with 2 workers and 2 cities, and hooking up bronze with mine+roads fast because worker improvements for Deity AI get done at double speed. (Deity AI can road in 1 turn, farm in 3 turns, pasture in 2 turns, and chop in 2 turns)
Warriors, Archers, and Longbows are not considered offensive units.
Later on towards the midgame, diplomacy (annoyed/cautious/pleased) and land target (long borders) will influence DOW choices.
Being a land target puts you at the front of the list for war targets usually! (unless you have good diplomatic relations with the warmonger)
Going through the war checks on the 1st or 2nd pass as a land target means the power ratio checks are much higher.
Plus, when you get put on the valid war target list, each land plot shared with the warmonger makes you appear to be a juicier target.
At the start of the game, being selected to get DOW'd is almost pure luck.
As near as I can tell, Pangaea made it to pass 3 on the Total War decision tree since Churchill had no valid land targets, and was placed onto a list of war targets with the other AI who failed the Attitude-NoWar roll (ANW) and then also failed the Power ratio check.
The power ratio check for Pass 3 was Churchill would only attack someone with less than 1.5*Churchill's power (soldiers)*MaxDistPr = 60 for Churchill
1.5*Power*0.60 = 0.9*Power, or 90% of Churchill's soldiers. (If Aggressive AI is turned on before the game starts, 90% gets multiplied by 4/3rd's and Churchill would be willing to attack if the target has less than 120% of Churchill's Soldiers or a 1.200 Power Ratio)
I'm certain Pangaea had less than a 0.900 power ratio with Churchill, so he failed the power ratio check.
He also failed the previous ANW check which was a 70% chance to be disregarded as a war target for being Cautious with Churchill. (NoWarProb_Cautious = 70) Pangea got really unlucky here!
Then Churchill ran down the list of best possible victims who failed both the diplomacy attitude check and the power rating check and chose Pangaea.
Churchill only has an iMaxWarRand of 200, so a 0.5% chance to start plotting war each turn once he has copper hooked up?
Anyway, it was amazing for Churchill to get Bronze so early, even more amazing for him to start plotting right away, and just bad luck that Pangaea failed the 70% chance to be disregarded for being Cautious with Churchill.
The Power Rating check was always going to be lost, but other AI might have been below 0.900 with Churchill too due to only having Archers and not teching Bronze Working yet.
There might have been 1 unlucky AI who also failed both the power ratio check and the 70% chance to be disregarded for being Cautious.
If it came down to 1 unlucky AI + Pangaea on Pass 3, then the juiciness of the target was considered and Pangaea was picked because his capital was closer or his cities were settled closer together than the 1 unlucky AI.
thank you very much for the informative answer. I think i got the basic concept of how the mechanic works now. Indeed unlucky for Pangaea. No Gustav Gans in his deity games, always Donald Duck.
Let's try Justinian, haven't played him in the HoF.
Not bad. This should go well.
Of course you know it didn't go all that swell. Gave up at some point before 1AD.
Spoiler:
Capital gold surprise. Nice!
Err, not so nice.
Oh come on!
Naturally I knew this was extremely unlikely to succeed. However, I went IW because I hoped for Iron considering we had nothing else (strategics), and because the **** built Pyramids in that city. He only had archers too. But must have gotten iron in his 7th city I suppose, and an eyeblink later the place is swarming in swords an axes.
Threw a horde of Swords against it, and eventually took. Lost a thousand swords, mind you.
Then awful timing. I decide to move on a city down the coast with only a sword+archer defender. Next turn Sury shows up with a bunch of units, which means I can't get back into the city in time. Next turn the city finally comes out of resistance, but is lost. Then retaken from the stack that moved back. But now the stupid city loses the granary and is in resistance for yet another 7 turns (after first 9).
Much back and forth later. He sends units. I kill them, for the most part. Actually that's not true. I also lose an impressive amount of 80-90% battles. Though I suppose that's just par for the course...
Eventually he wanted to talk, but it was impossible to buy peace. He kept wanting the city I had taken off his hands twice. When I got Alpha it wasn't enough to give him the rest of Aesthetics either. (Of course the entire map goes Aesthetics this time too).
If somebody wants to warrior rush the map by 1000BC, here is the save.
(It's a BUFFY save because I intended to play for the HoF)
I should stop trying to play Deity. It's pointless.
I settled south stupidly to grab pigs and gems, only for him to steal the corn and sheep right by my side just as my third dude comes out at 2080bc. (this was his 5th city)
I had a very memorable DoW six years ago (Warlords/Immortal). I was wondering how to go about this rather barren land and Cyrus strongly recommended to quit.
Rolled another random Fractal map with Justinian. Suppose workerstealing on Deity isn't recommended... but why did he then send a worker right next to my warrior? Naughty Gandhi.
Not dead (yet).
Spoiler:
Settling where I did was unfortunate because we ended up killing an ocean fish. Started 1W of south corn. Went NE, saw coast so went 1N and settled on turn 1. Ooops. Hoped for seafood, and got a second corn. Here Gandhi is sending chariots against me. Thankfully there was copper nearby that I could settle, otherwise we'd already be dead.
Had to 1-whip several times, because the barbs were causing no end of trouble too. And of course the RNG. It's absolutely staggering the amount of crap it will throw your way when it really matters. Like this ****
But at least the spears didn't lose the 99% fights against chariots -- something to celebrate in its own right -- and it finally enabled peace after a 1500 year long war or something like that. Actually got a GG out of it too (so HE unlocked).
Damn, isn't this a super-early Colossus? Must be the same punk that Oracled MC. That Oracle is very early too, so probably an IND leader.
Well... it turns out we are semi-isolated with Gandhi. At least unless somebody's workboat shows up soon. But it looks like there is a good chunk of land to our west. Also happened to be a very close call on killing a second fish, in the south. Just put a city on the fur, and Gandhi already has a missionary on the way.
The reason I write this: how do you actually play semi-iso on this level? Or in this situation more specifically?
Gandhi is pretty badly blocked in (glad that wasn't me), probably won't get many trades out of him, and getting friendly will take a while due to the DOW. Maybe Cataphracts can actually work? That would be quite something. More long-term, is the idea in semi-iso to go for the Astro double-bulb thing, or something else? Academy?
Rolled another random Fractal map with Justinia. Just put a city on the fur, and Gandhi already has a missionary on the way.
The reason I write this: how do you actually play semi-iso on this level? Or in this situation more specifically?
Gandhi is pretty badly blocked in (glad that wasn't me), probably won't get many trades out of him, and getting friendly will take a while due to the DOW. Maybe Cataphracts can actually work? That would be quite something. More long-term, is the idea in semi-iso to go for the Astro double-bulb thing, or something else? Academy?
Just a couple of thoughts. Since you anyway short term are expanding west, getting a vision chariot with the help from barbs may get you in touch with someone (place on a galley). Cataphracts good but tech path awkward. But wait, vassal him and let him tech stuff for you. Assuming iron somewhere.
Rolled another random Fractal map with Justinian. Suppose workerstealing on Deity isn't recommended... but why did he then send a worker right next to my warrior? Naughty Gandhi.
Not dead (yet).
Spoiler:
Settling where I did was unfortunate because we ended up killing an ocean fish. Started 1W of south corn. Went NE, saw coast so went 1N and settled on turn 1. Ooops. Hoped for seafood, and got a second corn. Here Gandhi is sending chariots against me. Thankfully there was copper nearby that I could settle, otherwise we'd already be dead. View attachment 588714
Had to 1-whip several times, because the barbs were causing no end of trouble too. And of course the RNG. It's absolutely staggering the amount of crap it will throw your way when it really matters. Like this **** View attachment 588718
But at least the spears didn't lose the 99% fights against chariots -- something to celebrate in its own right -- and it finally enabled peace after a 1500 year long war or something like that. Actually got a GG out of it too (so HE unlocked).
Damn, isn't this a super-early Colossus? Must be the same punk that Oracled MC. That Oracle is very early too, so probably an IND leader. View attachment 588719
Well... it turns out we are semi-isolated with Gandhi. At least unless somebody's workboat shows up soon. But it looks like there is a good chunk of land to our west. Also happened to be a very close call on killing a second fish, in the south. Just put a city on the fur, and Gandhi already has a missionary on the way. View attachment 588722
The reason I write this: how do you actually play semi-iso on this level? Or in this situation more specifically?
Gandhi is pretty badly blocked in (glad that wasn't me), probably won't get many trades out of him, and getting friendly will take a while due to the DOW. Maybe Cataphracts can actually work? That would be quite something. More long-term, is the idea in semi-iso to go for the Astro double-bulb thing, or something else? Academy?
I think you got the best neighbor you could under these circumstances, save for Mansa. I would beeline for an astro bulb, as is standard in isolation maps. This will give you the usual benefits, but also serves as 1/2 of a cataphract beeline because the machinery path is needed for guilds. After you meet some other people, quickly trade for monarchy/feudalism, get guilds (which also puts you closer to cannons) and then stomp over Gandhi, who probably has nothing in the way of military and is hopefully far from engineering, with cataphracts. From then on continue with standard operating procedure and take out as much of the rest of the world with cannons + cataphracts/rifles, and eventually when people start getting infantry, tech up to industrialism and finish things with a final push using tanks/bombers.
Tl;dr: why are you going math??? Get to optics instead.
Cheers. Not been able to play for a few days due to migraine (it's like anarchy, everything shuts down), but I think you are right. Probably have to sort-of ignore tha Gandhi is there, and go for Astro asap. Maybe ignore calendar too, despite the spieces. Had half a mind to settle the west and build up, but it may actually be better (having the Toku game in mind) to stay small at 5-6 cities and hopefully tech faster that way. Means slower build up, but who knows: maybe it will be possible to take on Gandhi with trebs + cataphracts for instance (I don't have much faith in cataphracts alone, because he's bound to get engineering + longbows pretty quickly).
Looks like some tasty land over here, though, so it's hard to tell. But for now I've picked MC, with a mind to trade for Monarchy with Gandhi as long as he doesn't go MC early himself. He just built a shrine, and the exploring spear noticed stone hooked up too, so it would be awesome if he built Mids for later. I'd be too late for that now, even if I settle on the stone like first dotmapped.
That corn city should be worth it, then it's the open question of the barb one, and as usual the AI will surely send some units to try to claim that in the near future. They always do. Nervous about exploring with several spears, because axes eat them up.
(Actually, it may be better to put that corn city 2W, if I'm only going to stay at 5 cities anyway. Won't be connected, though, and that's a long road)
Mostly I just hope it's possible to play this game a bit further without feeling it's a loss in waiting. Deity can be such a soul-crushing experience in that way. Heck, I even saw posts like that from @Lain when he started posting here, and he was already freakishly good.
This one turned out a bit differently than expected. Julius suddenly showed up with a workboat, so it's not total semi-isolation (if that is a thing ) after all. Double-gold of course helps, and a few trades too (IW, Sailing, Monarchy... +Calendar very recently), resulting in a T117 Optics, and should be around T120 Astro. No GGs yet elsewhere and Buddhism has 55% spread, so the continent with that on it will probably be advanced. But it looks reasonably good so far, at least if I can smack Gandhi around. Annoying he stole that barb city, but I got screwed by the RNG again, and he took it after my 72% CR2 axe died (with cata + 4 units).
Very little food and no seafood anywhere in the west, so that was disappointing.
(Dotmap has been altered since taking this picture)
I went to one of the games @krikav recommended, NC 212:
Spoiler:
I lost 2 warriors to Archers in the fogbust phase but managed to fogbust almost everything and had good growth in the process. Gilgamesh even traded me some gems for the Fish extremely early and then:
Spoiler:
There is nothing I could have done. The city he will take just went size 2 which is a shame as it will not be razed.
@shakabrade That map I remember fondly!
I went back and checked my game:
Spoiler:
I had plans to settle a turtleshell city on the desert hill but got that plan screwed by settlement of gilga.
Gifted a city T60 and just prayed after that.
There was some excellent land in the far west that put the game on firm footing after that.
It's a shame you had rotten luck, not that much one can do against those early DoWs, especially not in semi-iso.
Well, you could go full Lain and just go archery every map, but I'm not confident enough to do that. Going early archery feels like saying "Ok, I'll just lose slowly instead of fast." for me.
In the more recent Charlemange game, I tried to rush a gift settler even faster, but that too was at T54 (with a IMP leader).
I think I did rather poorly in warfare with cuir upgraded numidians after that and it would have been nice to see some proper warfare with those.
Could be something to try out in rich maps, Hannibal with Fin could reach cavallery earlier than most, and the free flanking promotion sits well on those.
@shakabrade That map I remember fondly!
I went back and checked my game:
Spoiler:
I had plans to settle a turtleshell city on the desert hill but got that plan screwed by settlement of gilga.
Gifted a city T60 and just prayed after that.
There was some excellent land in the far west that put the game on firm footing after that.
It's a shame you had rotten luck, not that much one can do against those early DoWs, especially not in semi-iso.
Well, you could go full Lain and just go archery every map, but I'm not confident enough to do that. Going early archery feels like saying "Ok, I'll just lose slowly instead of fast." for me.
In the more recent Charlemange game, I tried to rush a gift settler even faster, but that too was at T54 (with a IMP leader).
I think I did rather poorly in warfare with cuir upgraded numidians after that and it would have been nice to see some proper warfare with those.
Could be something to try out in rich maps, Hannibal with Fin could reach cavallery earlier than most, and the free flanking promotion sits well on those.
I do think he would have settled every spot if I commited to Archery and Archers. Also, gifting the 2nd settler is usually an overreaction and Gilgamesh can still plot at pleased. Archers have losing odds against vultures. Especially CR1 ones. And without walls. I would need 4 Archers to hold this, if very lucky. I did plan to gift him the 3rd settler (5-3 whip from Carthage). Early, at least double, gems would get him to Construction pretty soon. Commiting to early Archery against him on this map is probably a bad play. But gifting a 2nd settler city could have worked maybe. In semi-iso, we don't see when the AI is plotting. I should treat the Gilgamesh like Monty or Shaka and make city gift a priority.
I was able to chop a warrior and then cold-whipped another one, so we actually survived. But still. Made me not want to continue. The map sucked arse anyway. No food. Only jungle.
Think I'm unfortunately getting fed up of the game from all these dumb attempts at playing Deity.
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I should treat the Gilgamesh like Monty or Shaka and make city gift a priority.
