A solution for Iraq

[BirraImperial]

Elect another BUSH as President
Then we can look forward to another IRAQ war.

Third times the charm !

What makes you think US troops could "take over Iraq" now? US troops are neither trained nor equipped for "taking over" Iraq, and they never have been. They are trained and equipped to destroy enemy military capabilities. In Iraq they already did that. There is nothing more for them to do there.

If ISIS becomes a "real threat to world security," the US military is fully capable of destroying their military capabilities in very short order, just as they did to Iraq. The world merely needs to make the call, I expect. However, at some point the world needs to get it through their heads that destruction of military capabilities on a regular basis is not ever going to "solve the problem."

Look, the US created this mess in the first place by invading Iraq back in 2003...They should be the ones attempting to solve it, along with the other Western and Arab allies...They have the military capability to do it, but money is obviously a problem. If Iraq falls and ISIS takes over, this is only gonna get worse for everyone...They already make millions a day on illegal oil revenue, destroy ancient landmarks and terrorize the populations they control...If they get any stronger, things are gonna be ugly quite fast.

EDIT: Maybe the words "take over" are wrong, what I meant is get fully involved supporting the Iraqi military even more than now...

 

[onejayhawk]

Were you there at any point during that time period? I was and you know what I saw? A destroyed nation. And not just in the military sense either. Even the relatively well-off Iraqi citizens were having great difficulty securing reliable access to the most basic goods and services including food, water, housing, and medical care.

We (meaning my unit) did the best with what we had and helped where we could, but it just wasn't enough. That nation had more or less been burnt to the ground by the invasion and subsequent conflict with the seemingly endless number of insurgent groups that were popping up.

Two years, mostly around Baghdad, but also some time at Anaconda. That said, I rarely went outside the wire. Instead I worked with local contractors and individual workers. I remember one looking at a pile of twisted metal. Dripping vitriol, he said one word, "Saddam." Another, a teenager, told me he was forced to join the Army, or they would have cut off his ears.

J

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Look, the US created this mess in the first place by invading Iraq back in 2003...They should be the ones attempting to solve it, along with the other Western and Arab allies...They have the military capability to do it, but money is obviously a problem. If Iraq falls and ISIS takes over, this is only gonna get worse for everyone...They already make millions a day on illegal oil revenue, destroy ancient landmarks and terrorize the populations they control...If they get any stronger, things are gonna be ugly quite fast.

EDIT: Maybe the words "take over" are wrong, what I meant is get fully involved supporting the Iraqi military even more than now...

The problem is that the only thing that can unite the three disparate groups that Saddam held together by tyrannical force other than tyrannical force is that they will unite to kick out an invader...namely the US military. There is no greater kiss of death for the Iraqi military than US support. Basically if the US goes in with numbers to oppose ISIS you can count on pretty much all of Iraq to immediately sign on...with ISIS.

This is why we ultimately had to leave. Yes, we broke it. Yes, this whole mess is our fault. Yes, the idiots who said "oh they will welcome us with open arms when we destroy their country" are so stupidly dangerous that we should have them executed. But there is no way to turn that clock back.

So the only way to "solve" it is to let it run its course. Iraq has been reduced to a wasteland, and wastelands are always ruled by petty warlords who squabble amongst themselves. If we leave ISIS to its own devices it will fragment into factions throwing rocks at each other, because it won't be able to maintain an infrastructure that will allow anything else. Illegal oil revenues require oil fields and pipelines that have to be maintained, and as conditions deteriorate so will the oilfields and pipelines...or someone will just destroy them outright.

Millions more will die in poverty and misery, and that's about that. Eventually one of the warlords will arise as the new Saddam. More brutal, probably, but able to crush his opposition into line. Then he can be dealt with, hopefully more intelligently than we dealt with the last one under the "leadership" of our worst choice ever.

 

[Antilogic]

I would be more impressed if I could be sure this wasn't just the typical neo con ploy to get back in power.

"Look, we are never going to get a shot at Iran if we keep trying to pretend that Iraq worked. No one but that Jayhawk dude, and a few old people in retirement homes believes that. We need some of the younger guys to start saying that Iraq was a mistake and how they tried to say so at the time. Then we get them into cabinet positions in the next Republican administration and they can say that even though Iraq was a mistake Iran isn't and get us our next shot at nation building. If we can get enough tries eventually one has to work, and then we will be vindicated."

Make a note of this Jed Babbin dude...he might be dangerous.

And this is why a whole lot of the world dislikes the US. It acts so arrogantly, that it knows best, yet time and time again it does not. Sheesh ... this selfishness by the US is as old as the hills.

YES.

Look, the US created this mess in the first place by invading Iraq back in 2003...They should be the ones attempting to solve it, along with the other Western and Arab allies...They have the military capability to do it, but money is obviously a problem. If Iraq falls and ISIS takes over, this is only gonna get worse for everyone...They already make millions a day on illegal oil revenue, destroy ancient landmarks and terrorize the populations they control...If they get any stronger, things are gonna be ugly quite fast.

EDIT: Maybe the words "take over" are wrong, what I meant is get fully involved supporting the Iraqi military even more than now...

I think your post assumes this problem can be solved with force. We've been intervening militarily in that region for decades and it only gets worse.

And it's not like we have been wasting billions arming and training junk Iraqi brigades that drop their damn weapons and flee at the sight of ISIS. That's one of the big reasons why ISIS is a particularly well-armed band.

 

[KmDubya]

In hindsight going into Iraq was a mistake but you can't change what happened. The surge left Iraq in a better shape and should have (could have, might have) led the way to an overall victory in the region with a stable democratic government.

Instead the Obama administration made sure to leave Iraq defenseless and on its own, thus guaranteeing that it would end in the current disaster that we have now. The Obama administration also made sure to completely destabilize Libya.

One of two things are happening either the Obama administration is so incompetent that it keeps destabilizing countries by accident or it is doing it on purpose.

The best thing now is to let the fight between Sunni and Shia continue until one side exterminates the other. Hopefully this will keep the region busy for a generation or two. When it goes nuclear the fallout should be contained by the mountains in Central Asia and contain the damage to that section of the world.

With the oil reserves held in the Bakken oilfield in the US we don't need the middle east's oil or their crazy people, ISIS might be the solution that the world needs for the region. Sometimes if you have a cancerous tumor amputation is the best policy.

 

[BirraImperial]

The problem is that the only thing that can unite the three disparate groups that Saddam held together by tyrannical force other than tyrannical force is that they will unite to kick out an invader...namely the US military. There is no greater kiss of death for the Iraqi military than US support. Basically if the US goes in with numbers to oppose ISIS you can count on pretty much all of Iraq to immediately sign on...with ISIS.

This is why we ultimately had to leave. Yes, we broke it. Yes, this whole mess is our fault. Yes, the idiots who said "oh they will welcome us with open arms when we destroy their country" are so stupidly dangerous that we should have them executed. But there is no way to turn that clock back.

So the only way to "solve" it is to let it run its course. Iraq has been reduced to a wasteland, and wastelands are always ruled by petty warlords who squabble amongst themselves. If we leave ISIS to its own devices it will fragment into factions throwing rocks at each other, because it won't be able to maintain an infrastructure that will allow anything else. Illegal oil revenues require oil fields and pipelines that have to be maintained, and as conditions deteriorate so will the oilfields and pipelines...or someone will just destroy them outright.

Millions more will die in poverty and misery, and that's about that. Eventually one of the warlords will arise as the new Saddam. More brutal, probably, but able to crush his opposition into line. Then he can be dealt with, hopefully more intelligently than we dealt with the last one under the "leadership" of our worst choice ever.

I don't think it's that simple as "just let things run their course". ISIS is a serious threat; They're not your standard terrorist group... I hope you're right though, but without US intervention, Iraq and most likely Syria will fall, and with them other Arab countries, and matters are gonna get even worse...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't think it's that simple as "just let things run their course". ISIS is a serious threat; They're not your standard terrorist group... I hope you're right though, but without US intervention, Iraq and most likely Syria will fall, and with them other Arab countries, and matters are gonna get even worse...

If they become a really serious threat either other nations will stop buying their illegal oil, or if some nations refuse to stop buying their oil other nations will bomb out the infrastructure that produces the oil. The only way they will ever be able to buy even remotely modern arms is if they are trading oil for them. So they will be stuck with the same old stuff...occasional suicide bombings, maybe a spectacular two building calamity every few decades.

If they get too close to the House of Saud, the Saud's turn on the oil taps and bring in enough state of the art firepower to blow them back a few hundred miles. If their own people turn against them, the world turns a blind eye while the Saud's gas them into submission or whatever it is that absolute monarchies do when pressed.

If they get too close to Turkey, NATO will blow them back a few hundred miles. If the Turks own people turn on them the world turns a blind eye while the Turks gas them into submission or whatever it is that democracies do when pressed.

If they overrun Israel and solve the endless Palestinian "crisis" I think the world is ready to call that an even trade.

All in all, this too shall pass.

 

[KmDubya]

I don't think it's that simple as "just let things run their course". ISIS is a serious threat; They're not your standard terrorist group... I hope you're right though, but without US intervention, Iraq and most likely Syria will fall, and with them other Arab countries, and matters are gonna get even worse...

And the problem with this course of action for the US is ???????????

We had terrorism before ISIS and will continue to have terrorism even if they were somehow magically eliminated. The Muslim Brotherhood >>> Al Qaeda >>>> ISIS >>>> something else.

Letting, or even helping, the Muslim middle east burn down is something that the whole G-8 could get behind. It is something that China, Russia and the US could all agree with. Every culture in the world is capable of co-existing with one another except for Islam which needs to wipe away everything in its path. This is just the civilized world's way of voting them off the island.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

And the problem with this course of action for the US is ???????????

We had terrorism before ISIS and will continue to have terrorism even if they were somehow magically eliminated. The Muslim Brotherhood >>> Al Qaeda >>>> ISIS >>>> something else.

Letting, or even helping, the Muslim middle east burn down is something that the whole G-8 could get behind. It is something that China, Russia and the US could all agree with. Every culture in the world is capable of co-existing with one another except for Islam which needs to wipe away everything in its path. This is just the civilized world's way of voting them off the island.

To have large part of the world permanently unstable isnt any smarter then trying to spred democracy with war. Its extremely stupid.

 

[Commodore]

Two years, mostly around Baghdad, but also some time at Anaconda. That said, I rarely went outside the wire. Instead I worked with local contractors and individual workers. I remember one looking at a pile of twisted metal. Dripping vitriol, he said one word, "Saddam." Another, a teenager, told me he was forced to join the Army, or they would have cut off his ears.

J

Yeah, that's kind of the point I'm making. The people of Iraq just went from one bad situation to another without any real improvement. They suffered before we came and they suffered after with the only thing changing being the nature of their suffering.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Not enough glass in any of the suggestions so far.

 

[uppi]

[...] overall victory in the region with a stable democratic government.

That was never going to happen.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Yeah, that's kind of the point I'm making. The people of Iraq just went from one bad situation to another without any real improvement. They suffered before we came and they suffered after with the only thing changing being the nature of their suffering.

I am afraid you are still wearing pink glasses. They went from uneasy/bad to worse having over milion dead in process. If you look at the basic life necessities like stability, basic economic needs etc. its practically a horror story. The same goes for Libya, Syria and now there is some more experimantation in Ukraine. Where are principles and democracy? Its the same like crusades thousand years ago. Its essentialy about greed.

 

[onejayhawk]

Yeah, that's kind of the point I'm making. The people of Iraq just went from one bad situation to another without any real improvement. They suffered before we came and they suffered after with the only thing changing being the nature of their suffering.

From spring 2004 to spring 2006 I saw a lot of improvement. Our workers were still getting harassed, but not as much Their living conditions improved. Businesses became more established. Jobs were more available.

I suspect many of those workers are now dead. Thanks Obama.


J

 

[Timsup2nothin]

From spring 2004 to spring 2006 I saw a lot of improvement. Our workers were still getting harassed, but not as much Their living conditions improved. Businesses became more established. Jobs were more available.

I suspect many of those workers are now dead. Thanks Obama.


J

"Your" workers were collaborators as far as everyone else around them was concerned. You were maintaining, by force of arms, an occupation regime. No occupation regime, ever, has created stability without passing through genocide. So even if the short term improvements you saw were real, and not figments of your fevered imagination trying to justify your work for the carpetbaggers, they don't mean anything.

 

[JollyRoger]

From spring 2004 to spring 2006 I saw a lot of improvement. Our workers were still getting harassed, but not as much Their living conditions improved. Businesses became more established. Jobs were more available.

I suspect many of those workers are now dead. Thanks Obama.


J

So I assume you would buy shares in the IPO I suggested. Iraq is really a failure of pro-war supporters not banding together to offer a privately-backed solution. Instead, they are whining for more government action and spending.

 

[kiwitt]

Thanks Obama.

Why blame Obama. He did not cause the mess, it was the military/security/diplomatic teams who failed in their assessments and advice given to him and what to do. He was just trying to get the US out of a mess not of his making. Also, I assume a President does not act alone or without advice. Like the advice given to Bush jr, by his staff for Iraq 2.

These lobbyists / power brokers / think-tanks etc., behind the scenes are who need to be held to account.

 

[JollyRoger]

Staying . . . losing proposition
Leaving . . . losing proposition

Thanks for choosing one Obama.

 

[Tahuti]

Maybe we just need to accept that Iraq is done for and beyond any redemption. Maybe the USA can send Gitmo prisoners over there! It's an open air prison anyway.

 

[JollyRoger]

Link to video.