Aaaarmy Training, Sir!

[Walter_Wolf]

More workers sounds good.

Cottages.
I put some around AA, Berlin and Hamburg in the plan. That's just one more than you're counting on. Hamburg cottages are in the plan as per Quip's suggestion. That city can run either cottages / farms or workshops / farms. It will take a while for the workshops to become powerfull (guilds, chemistry, castes ? ), and we can start growing cottages sooner. I don't think 3 commerce cities is too much. Will do as the team wishes.

cheers

 

[ShiVvV]

Sorry for the delay. It was supposed to be a relaxed game, so I hope it's OK I took the relaxed pace NP, gives me a chance to frustrate myself with current BOTM.

Anyway, here's a plan.

Research: Alpha -> make some trades (IW !!) -> MC? -> Construction? Although the MC path is tempting I really think Alpha gives us the best options. I'd love to steal some of the cheaper techs from Biz before our EPs vs. him are wasted.

I agree we should reinforce the Dortmund stack and attack in a few turns. I would even move it a few tiles south for a turn or two to maybe lure some defenders out of the city. Take Essen next. Raze both cities. Btw, how did the Essen defending forces look like when we last (if we did) saw them? Question--why do we need to raze Essen and Dortmund, maintenance? I can see maybe razing Dortmund but even this city may be worth keeping (coastal/can work some otherwise dead tiles/3F2C lake tile with a lighthouse.

I would use the GG on the chariot for the free promotion which might become usefull sometime. OK with me.

Build/chop a settler from Berlin for the Fe 2E site as suggested. I suppose this is best city to build settler from. I'd bump settler ahead of library in queue and use Worker2 to put a chop into settler build. Should be able to OF into an archer, then library.

Do we want to park a HA near Hittite to be able to take it if an AI eventually weakens the defences? Sounds good too. We almost have a barracks finished in AA. Could produce one more HA then get on library here. Taking Hittite would give us a nice seal on Izzy.

We have 18 HA. 17 of which in Bismarck lands. I wonder how many more do we need to build if we're going for 1 tile movement catapults soon. I'd keep producing them in the 'stables cities' and build some other infra elsewhere. Swords next. Question--why the swords? I realize we'd want the CR promotions for them but at this point IW still about 6+ turns away (assuming trade). I'd be more inclined to axes now for HA support with catapults coming soonish. With Izzy or Cyrus in mind down the road.

City by city (as suggested by Quip and ShiVvV mostly)

Aksum – a few more HA. This isn't a dream bureau capital location, so if we decide to move the capital (as suggested), we should probably get another farm or two for Aksum. Yes on farms; yes on continuing HAs.

Gondar – HA, get another farm 1N1E of the city. Farm all we can here and near Askum. Would stay with producing HAs.

Lalibela – barracks; Axes/Swords. Not so sure about this one. We can get out 2/3 archer garrison units here for new conquest cities. Roughly 2.5 turns per archer.

Adis Abeba – Library; farm 1S1E of the city to be able to irrigate the grass tiles later and probably cottage up the plains. I'd favor finishing partially completed barracks first, then HA (for Hittite), then library.

Hamburg – Library; garrison archers (we don't need barracks for those) cottages Maybe chop some mids fail gold after we get the stone? Worker2's chop will finish library. Worker2 up to Berlin to chop. We have granary here so I'd start a worker after library.

Berlin – Settler; Library; cottages (chop fail gold?) Agree...not crazy about having to go settler first but is probably best. With a chop from Worker2 and 2pop whip will have good overflow into library. This city I'd think is best bet for 'Mids.

Munich – get a barracks and maybe some swords when we get IW and Iron online. We have granary here too so I'd go archer then whip worker>barracks.

Try to keep the scout alive. Staying alive, staying alive...

We currently have 5 workers in the south. I'd think at least one, if not two, of the 3 workers near Askum can head north to chop. We might consider using the worker currently in city of AA to finish road network to Cyrus by roading pf tile 1SE of Cu mine.

I'm also in favor of cottaging up AA, Berlin and Hamburg. We can't run our economy off luxury metal mines forever.

Get a couple spies out as soon as we can.

And we could always build the Hanging Gardens while we're at it!

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Do we want the mids?

 

[Walter_Wolf]

T100

Started with moving the scout 1SW. There's a spear 1NE of Bismarck's last settled city probably heading towards munchen or something. It was safe to steal two workers at Stuttgart 1SE with an injured HA which got two combat promos for healing before entering german lands.

We might consider using the worker currently in city of AA to finish road network to Cyrus by roading pf tile 1SE of Cu mine.

We already have trade routes with Cyrus. (or was it something else you had in mind?)

IBT
Judaism spreads in Berlin.
German Axe comes from Essen towards our territory.
Bismarck is about to plant a fish nets near Essen. Looks like a possible keeper.
I moved the Dortmund army south, so he moves an archer out of the city. He did. Will be an easy prey.


T101

Took out the lured archer and got in position to take Dortmund next turn.


T102

Burned down Dortmund. Lost 3 HA to the spear .
The settler is our new slave now of course. (that makes 3 workers).
Barcelona has just 2 archers. (I'm scouting Izzy's lands)


IBT
The spear is aproaching Munchen I'm worried about our stone.
judaism spreads in Lalibela.


T103

Another spear in Essen. Man, how many has he got? Spear, Sword and archer in the city.
is he getting metals from someone?
Will have to delay the attack to gather more troops.
Hitite is defended by 3 archers.

T104 - T105
Churchill would trade Ivory. I don't have anything to spare.
Madrid has just 2 archers.


T106
Alpha in.
Essen had the Granary and Lighthouse so I kept it. Blame ShiVvV for putting the 'idea' in my ear .
The forces used were probably overkill, could have sent some towards Frankfurt already.


Hamburg is ready to whip the settler.
Berlin is building the mids instead of Palace. It's half way done already.
War weariness started to kick in.

We have some trade options we might discuss before I continue. Would continue tomorrow at the same time.
Isabella doesn't even have BW yet and I didn't spot bronze in her lands. hmmm juicy target.

Tech screen:

Spoiler :

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Thoughts:

Self research myst.
Check who will trade for religious techs + IW next turn.

Take Frankfurt, keep it, make peace and steal monarchy from Bizzy when appropriate. redeclare in 10T, kill him.
DoW izabela in the meantime. Take her core cities.
Connect Essen to the empire and trade stone for ivory with Churchill. Research Construction next, kill, kill, kill.

 

[shpeka]

Attacking a second AI in the BC's is something I don't recall ever doing. It's not the BC that scare me, rather - the lack of economic techs i.e. Currency, CoL, CS.

It is probably very doable, it's just something I have no experience in.

p.s.: On a side note - two weeks ago I did a little shadow with my expansion schedule. As this game is a learning experience it might be interesting how the two games compare.

p.p.s: Some sloppy micro from my side, including losing a worker to the roaded barb city.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

yes, I was thinking the same thing.
We should not trade with cyrus yet probably and get CoL from him. He got confu, right?

 

[ShiVvV]

Good call scouting Izzy and nice worker steals!

Some observations
1. Izzy won't accept BW; Cyrus won't accept Alpha--so they've almost got these techs.
2. We could trade Math for IW with Churchill right now (he is no one's worst enemy).
3. We do need to tech Myst right now, then hopefully can trade Writing to Monty for Poly next turn.
4. We could self-tech Priesthood (1T) after we have Poly opening up Monarchy, which we would steal from Biz via espionage.

Immediate micro/build options
1. Askum: continue HAs but mainly work 2 scientists
2. Gondar: switch now to a spy using the current OF we have (2T)
3. Munich: switch now to a spy; 2 pop whip it next turn into barracks>axe
4. Lalibela: archer>axe
5. AA: HA>library (AA has as much commerce as the cap does now). Worker1 can chop the pf tile he's currently in.
6. Hamburg: 2pop whip the settler now into archer. Settler up to the riverside coast site 2E of iron.
7. Berlin: let the chop go into the 'Mids this turn. Then switch to a spy for a turn and then 2pop whip the spy into the 'Mids.

All the spies go to Frankfurt; along with most of the HAs

Going forward
1. Is it time to consider adopting Judaism? We have it in all but two cities. Cheap temples and OrgRel versus negative diplo with all but Izzy?
2. I wouldn't trade with Cyrus either until we can try to get CoL from him (which is iffy whether he'd trade since monopoly tech for a while).
3. What to do with our GS? Future academy in Berlin if we move palace? Pick up Meditation and bulb Philo? MC or Eng bulb by avoiding Fishing and Meditation (not an expert with bulbing paths here)?
4. After Monarchy I'd think our highest priority tech is CoL (and our cheap courthouses).
5. We can continue to scout Izzy to determine whether she's next target; window against her is closing fast.
6. Once we steal Monarchy from Biz (barring bad espy luck) I'm not sure we even want peace with him at this point. I'm more in favor of just killing him as soon as we have Monarchy and postponing any DoW on Izzy until he's gone.
7. Acquiring ivory from Churchill (stone + ?) sure opens up some juicy Wellie opportunities, especially considering we're 5+ turns from Construction.
8. Can we get 5 or 6 HAs down to Hittite soonish? Would be really nice to have this city. It's possible we might need to take a ceasefire (not a 10turn peace!) with Biz briefly just to run down there and take Hittite.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

errr... too late with the comment I'm affraid.

I alreay played. Will post the report (I have it in wordpad) and then read your suggestions to see how much different did it go.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

T106

Traded Mysticism + Fishing for Writing with Monty.
IW for Math with Churchill. We have Iron near Hamburg.
Izzy also has iron 2S of Stuttgart (Bismarck soon to be last city), but doesn't have the tech yet.

Our economy is running low, so I put research to currency. Will get completed in 5-6 turns if we can afford it.

T108

Isabella adopts slavery. No sign of bronze in her lands.
Captured Frankfurt. Lost just one HA I think. We have 3 more workers now .
We have enough money to push through Currency.
Made peace with Bismarck. Took Sailing and Meditation in the deal - all he had in terms of techs. i didn't want to trade for medit/poly last turn 'cause I was expecting this to happen.
Churchill wants stone + copper for ivory. Didn't do it for now.

T109

Cordoba has 3 archers and a settler.
Traded Meditation for Priesthood with Monty.

T110
Christianity has been founded in a distant land.


Cyrus won't trade CoL.
The mids are due next turn.
Hitite can be taken this turn.
The 'Fe 2E' spot Settler is ready and waiting to do his job (if we want to go broke ).
We'll get a great scientist in Aksum in 7 turns (For the Berlin academy I would say).


Turnset over. Here's the save:

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Good call scouting Izzy and nice worker steals!

Some observations
1. Izzy won't accept BW; Cyrus won't accept Alpha--so they've almost got these techs.
2. We could trade Math for IW with Churchill right now (he is no one's worst enemy).
3. We do need to tech Myst right now, then hopefully can trade Writing to Monty for Poly next turn.
4. We could self-tech Priesthood (1T) after we have Poly opening up Monarchy, which we would steal from Biz via espionage.

I did it slightly different. Didn't want to waste any money researching Myst or Priesthood, but wanted to get Currency ASAP. We probably wouldn't get it this fast (T111) with the shape out economy is right now.
Anyway, we have the Monarchy prerequisites now, and a spy heading towards Stuttgart. Will get there in aproximately 3-4 turns.

Immediate micro/build options
1. Askum: continue HAs but mainly work 2 scientists Did that.
2. Gondar: switch now to a spy using the current OF we have (2T) I think I built it (them ) in Lalibela
3. Munich: switch now to a spy; 2 pop whip it next turn into barracks>axe Not quite sure what I did here.
4. Lalibela: archer>axe
5. AA: HA>library (AA has as much commerce as the cap does now). Worker1 can chop the pf tile he's currently in. Already moved the worker somewhere else
6. Hamburg: 2pop whip the settler now into archer. Settler up to the riverside coast site 2E of iron. Did just that
7. Berlin: let the chop go into the 'Mids this turn. Then switch to a spy for a turn and then 2pop whip the spy into the 'Mids. I actually 2 pop whiped an axe. It needed just 4 hammers. the spy needed 9 which I couldn't find anywhere

All the spies go to Frankfurt; along with most of the HAs That would had delayed the capture.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Going forward
1. Is it time to consider adopting Judaism? We have it in all but two cities. Cheap temples and OrgRel versus negative diplo with all but Izzy?
2. I wouldn't trade with Cyrus either until we can try to get CoL from him (which is iffy whether he'd trade since monopoly tech for a while).
3. What to do with our GS? Future academy in Berlin if we move palace? Pick up Meditation and bulb Philo? MC or Eng bulb by avoiding Fishing and Meditation (not an expert with bulbing paths here)?
4. After Monarchy I'd think our highest priority tech is CoL (and our cheap courthouses).
5. We can continue to scout Izzy to determine whether she's next target; window against her is closing fast.
6. Once we steal Monarchy from Biz (barring bad espy luck) I'm not sure we even want peace with him at this point. I'm more in favor of just killing him as soon as we have Monarchy and postponing any DoW on Izzy until he's gone.
7. Acquiring ivory from Churchill (stone + ?) sure opens up some juicy Wellie opportunities, especially considering we're 5+ turns from Construction.
8. Can we get 5 or 6 HAs down to Hittite soonish? Would be really nice to have this city. It's possible we might need to take a ceasefire (not a 10turn peace!) with Biz briefly just to run down there and take Hittite.

1. We don't have monotheism yet (or polytheism for that matter) for org. religion, but we'll get the mids next turn for a possible switch to Representation for our cheap creative Libraries and scientist specialists.
2. CoL unlocks two wonders, so I'm affraid we'll have to wait quite a bit for our cheap Courthouses if counting on trading CoL from him.
3. Yes, I was thinking Berlin academy also. We already have Meditation and Fishing (also Sailing ).
4. Agree 100%
5. I found a Bronze tile near her, and she has Iron in her borders (but no IW), She also had a Settler in Cordoba, so might be going for a metal site now that she is in slavery. I would at least take the marble spot, Toledo and Barcelona while she's defending them with just 2-3 archers.
6. Already took peace there. War weariness was killing us. We lost quite some Ha's to his spearmen.
7. He would take Bronze + Stone for Ivory. Might do it 'cause we're 2 - 3 turns from connecting Iron.
8. Already took out one archer last turn. We have 3HA vs. 2 archers T110. Should be an easy job.

cheers

EDIT:

btw, I didn't build any workers. I'm glad I didn't even start one .

 

[ShiVvV]

OK. So, forget what I said about CoL being the immediate priority . Currency was unquestionably the right tech to research first, followed by CoL perhaps.

Man, Stuttgart is poorly-placed isn't it? Are we gonna have to build another settler and rebuild it 2N (which isn't that great either but at least it gets clam and gold). I'm assuming Izzy's mystery city is 2S of the corn; could scout it to verify.

We could trade Math + Meditation to Cyrus for Poly (he almost has Math). I hate taking these cheap techs in trade too much but...our poor economy!

Thoughts
1. I noticed espy costs vs. Biz have really jumped up. Monarchy is still steal-able but we may have to use a combination of building wealth, increasing espy slider to do it. I still think stealing is best strategy as opposed to trading for Monarchy. Whatever the case, running Rep will help take care of our happiness issues along with its specialist-boosted research. If we can steal Monarchy quick enough will open up some trades for CASH.

2. I'll just bet Izzy's heading for the corn/incense/iron site. Another settler to nab it?

3. Unless it's just ridiculously expensive, we need that ivory. Hopefully we can sell a lot of surplus resources for gold too in two turns.

4. War vs. Izzy seems definitely doable. I'd want ivory and construction...but we wouldn't necessarily have to have these before declaring . The sooner we get to her before her metals kick in the better. Team consensus needed here vs. Izzy.

5. Try to sneak in some failgold for GLH in Essen?

OK, have to cut this short. Good job, WW. Looks like it was a fun and very productive turnset.

Roster
shpeka-UP-(jumping in here since needed a skip first round)
3. Lymond-ON DECK

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Yees, raze Stuttgart of course.

Yeah, It's probably best to attack Spain while she's still defending with archers. I'd keep Toledo as the last city 'cause if we take it, Bismarck probably gets access to the iron tile. We wouldn't want him to be able to make spears untill like, 2 turns prior the DoW.

So, maybe it's best to go for izzy's marble city, and then Barcelona. It's the holly city, and has plenty riverside tiles (same as Madrid btw). We need at least 3 turns to position the stack. I wish I had moved it before, but the plan was not that clear.

Why such an urge for Monarchy? I rarely prioritize that in my games (rarely = never ).

Churchill would give Ivory for stone + copper. I bet he would pass stone also. We will have Iron online in 3 turns, and we're not actually building any metal units atm. And could probably pass on that in the next 3, especially if one of the 3 is a representation anarchy turn.

EDIT: WTH was that ?

I mean, trade copper for ivory with Churchill
And, if we revolt to repre, there's just 2 turns in which we can build something and we're without metal.

cheers

 

[Quip]

Yeah, Barca should be a priority. With Izzy still several turns from metal units we might as well cripple her now and then we can play mop up later.

Have we tried bribing Montezuma onto Cyrus yet?

 

[ShiVvV]

snip
Why such an urge for Monarchy? I rarely prioritize that in my games (rarely = never ).
snip
I hear ya, WW. Before we had the Mids and the peace deal we took with Biz it made sense. I was thinking we'd self-tech or trade for the pre-reqs, then we'd steal Monarchy or take it for peace. Asking myself how much good it does for us now though since we can run Rep. That being said, stealing it still helps us by being able to trade/sell it and would give us something to do with our EPs versus Biz. I guess what's really driving me to 'push' for it is not wanting to waste the EPs we have on him before he exits the playing field.

I mean, trade copper for ivory with Churchill
And, if we revolt to repre, there's just 2 turns in which we can build something and we're without metal.

cheers

I'm sure we can get an acceptable deal for ivory. He might even add in some gpt + ivory <> copper. Good point about our having Fe in 3 turns with one of them being an anarchy turn.

And I'm coming around to the idea of an immediate DoW on Izzy. Man you guys are warmongers

BTW--Switch espionage to Izzy soonish?

@Quip--Monty's not ready to do the full monty just yet. I tried.

 

[shpeka]

Will try to squeeze the turn analysis tonight and play the turnset till Thursday. Wish me luck with that. Damn RL.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Ok, so let me point out how I see the next turnset please.

Yeah, Barca should be a priority. With Izzy still several turns from metal units we might as well cripple her now and then we can play mop up later.

Exactly

Yeah, It's probably best to attack Spain while she's still defending with archers. I'd keep Toledo as the last city 'cause if we take it, Bismarck probably gets access to the iron tile. We wouldn't want him to be able to make spears untill like, 2 turns prior the DoW.

So, maybe it's best to go for izzy's marble city, and then Barcelona. It's the holly city, and has plenty riverside tiles (same as Madrid btw). We need at least 3 turns to position the stack. I wish I had moved it before, but the plan was not that clear.

If you select a HA in Frankfurt, it says it needs 3 turns to get there through spanish territory, so there must be roads which we don't see as the terrain info is older than the roads.
Position the Frankfurt stack 1S1E of the marble tile and attack T113. Add any new HA and the Hitite survivors. When we get the city, move the rest of the forces (through it) as close to barcelona as possible. Build roads towards the marble (from our HA producing cities) city ASAP.
If we have enough healthy forces (6 - 7 HA, even a slightly inured few would do), move them in Madrid range. Madrid only had two archers last time I saw it (T106 ?). Even gamble on taking it.
Gather the remainings of our army and head towards the 2 gold spot city (not sure of the exact location) and get a few newly produces HA's in Toledo range. Take both cities. Raze the 2 gold city if badly placed (no Clams in BFC). Keep Toledo.
Get Calendar from Izzy for peace.
DoW Bismarck and kill him (even if we don't get monarchy ).

I'm not sure if Stuttgart is jewish, but once we posess the holy city, the steal tech cost might drop if it is (jewish I mean). I'm not 100% sure on how that works. We might have to be in the religion or something.

Tech CoL after currency, Civil service next. We need irrigation at many places and we have plenty of workers now. Should get some from Izzy maybe, and from Bismarck for sure.

With our cheap libraries and representation specialists plus cheap courthouses there shouldn't be a problem to get out of the economic collapse we're about to make.

Also, I would build monasteries in the three commerce cities we were planning (Berlin, Hamburg and AA).

So, cut Spain in half going marble -> Barca -> Madrid (these two being super cottage spammers) and then absorb its eastern part for the benefit of Great Ethiopia.

cheers

 

[pigswill]

Had a look. Northern iron city looks naff, why not just improve desert iron instead, we only need one source. We don't need iron that soon anyway with HAs.

Isabella has eight cities, we know 4 and guessed another, there's likely another near Stuttgart that will also need razing (for nice city 1SW of Stuttgart).

Attack! Attack!!

 

[ShiVvV]

snip
If you select a HA in Frankfurt, it says it needs 3 turns to get there through spanish territory, so there must be roads which we don't see as the terrain info is older than the roads. Yep and of course we'll know what kinda defenders Izzy has as a boost.
Position the Frankfurt stack 1S1E of the marble tile and attack T113. Add any new HA and the Hitite survivors. When we get the city, move the rest of the forces (through it) as close to barcelona as possible. Build roads towards the marble (from our HA producing cities) city ASAP. Yes. 1S1E of Frankfurt definitely the tile to attack from. The axe should go to Frankfurt too.
If we have enough healthy forces (6 - 7 HA, even a slightly inured few would do), move them in Madrid range. Madrid only had two archers last time I saw it (T106 ?). Even gamble on taking it. Don't see why we shouldn't.
Gather the remainings of our army and head towards the 2 gold spot city (not sure of the exact location) and get a few newly produces HA's in Toledo range. Take both cities. Raze the 2 gold city if badly placed (no Clams in BFC). Keep Toledo. Yes! We could finally get that 2Au/corn/clam city we've been eyeballing all game. The settler we currently have could scratch its plan to settle that iffy northern Fe site and head back towards Frankfurt until we can settle 2Au site. This would free up one of the archers to go back to Berlin and the other to garrison wherever.
Get Calendar from Izzy for peace.
DoW Bismarck and kill him (even if we don't get monarchy ). OK, I'll hush about the Monarchy stuff ! And yes, the sooner he's gone the better.

I'm not sure if Stuttgart is jewish, but once we posess the holy city, the steal tech cost might drop if it is (jewish I mean). I'm not 100% sure on how that works. We might have to be in the religion or something. I think the -25% espy costs occurs when our state religion is present in the city but the owner of the city is in a different state religion. In this case, I don't think any religion is present in Stuttgart currently nor do we have a state religion.

Tech CoL after currency, Civil service next. We need irrigation at many places and we have plenty of workers now. Should get some from Izzy maybe, and from Bismarck for sure. Agreed. Picking up marble will give us some nice options too with Aesthetics coming along soonish. Let's not forget the 90+ beakers we have invested already in Construction though. Coupled with the bronze for ivory trade we can do right now with Churchy...massive warmongering potential!

With our cheap libraries and representation specialists plus cheap courthouses there shouldn't be a problem to get out of the economic collapse we're about to make.

Also, I would build monasteries in the three commerce cities we were planning (Berlin, Hamburg and AA). Yes. Emphasis on Berlin and AA...Hamburg will probably need some farms.

So, cut Spain in half going marble -> Barca -> Madrid (these two being super cottage spammers) and then absorb its eastern part for the benefit of Great Ethiopia.

cheers

@WW--that plan looks great!...I'm glad someone thought of it.

@ pigswill--yea, I can't get too excited about the northern Fe city either. Settling it now probably hurts us more than it helps us. Maybe hold off settling there and save settler for the 2Au site.

Would be nice if Izzy would finally get that Jewish shrine built before we take Barcelona. If she doesn't...is it worth considering Moai + Jewish temple + any other temples (from religion spread) in Essen to get our own GProphet?

We can pick up Poly from Cyrus now. He almost has Math and will give Poly for Math + Meditation. Ehhh....we might want to hold off on tech trades until Currency is in though.

Do want to start chopping the Palace in Berlin as soon as Mids are finished?
We'll be able to chop a good many units from Munich but once those trees are gone that city will be tapped out.