[BTS] Achieving an early Deity Space victory

[Anysense]

Goal
What can be considered an early Space victory? The current HOF record on a standard size map and normal speed is 1520 AD launch and 1570 AD landing, that's turns 214 and 224 respectively; achieved by Sun Tzu Wu in an OCC game with Elizabeth. I suppose anything before 1600 AD can be regarded as "Early Space". Hence my goal is 15XX AD Space Colony, ideally 1565 AD or earlier.

However, I'm going to do it in an entirely different way. The two cornerstones of my approach are hammer economy and fast teching vassals.

Map settings
Map type: Big and Small
Size: Standard
World wrap: Cylindrical (flat is not allowed)
Climate: Temperate
Massive Continents/Islands/Islands Mixed In.

My first attempts were on Pangaea but its just not big enough. On B&S the mainland alone is bigger the largest Pangaea possible; and islands effectively raise the domination limit, allowing you to have pretty much all of the mainland to yourself. Just leave some good land for Elizabeth, Mansa and Gandhi and take the rest.

Game settings
No barbarians. Huts and Random Events on.

I don't like playing without barbs, but this game is meant for HOF and barbs usually slow you down at least a bit. So, no barbs this time. Another change is events on. I hardly ever played with random events and know nothing about them, so I'm just relying on WastinTime's statement that good events outweigh bad ones.

Leaders
My leader: Catherine. Mostly because of cheap settlers and libraries and free border pops, but extra great generals are very nice too. The UU and UB come too late and aren't going to have much effect on the game.
The key AI's: Mansa, Gandhi, Elizabeth. Reason: easy to vassal and make very useful vassals; of course, Mansa is always great, even if you haven't vassaled him yet.
A few weak and ok teching AI's: Darius, Pericles, Frederick.
And finally, someone whom the good guys will not like: Willem van Oranje.

The start

Spoiler :

Starting on a riverside PH is good: extra hammer and river connection for free traderoutes. A lot of good stuff in BFC: dry corn and riverside gold, two huts (blue circles), loads of forests and nearly every tile is riverside, which is also very good; and there are some fogged tiles in BFC that may contain something useful, hopefully, more food. I see no reason not to SIP except, may be, settling on gold if there is something really good to the northwest. I choose to SIP.

Spoiler SIP :

Floodplain and wet corn in BFC! And the land near the capital looks great too, more forests and riverside.

 

[Anysense]

I start researching Agriculture and the scout sets off exploring.
T2 Met Elizabeth and found Marble and Ivory. I'm really lucky to have Liz close by, because she is an ideal first target. On the downside, she will, probably, have that marble.
T3 The borders of Moscow expand and two hut bring 36 and 53 gold.
T4 Scouts found a map in a hut. It reveals more food, gold and another hut 5N of the scout.

Spoiler T4 :

T9 More gold from a hut, 126 in total. Thats already a good haul and there is a chance to find more, may be even a free tech if I'm really lucky.
Further scouting reveals an excellent spot for two cities with 3 food resorces and 2 golds; they also can be connected by the lake. However, as this location seems to be secured (not contested with any AI) I'm not going to settle there too early.

Spoiler T9 :

 

[sampsa]

Oh something that I was supposed to comment in your last thread: are you aware of this thread? https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/another-hof-spacerace-start.490952/

It's only immortal, but still there are some ideas that you might find useful (leading to a 12xxAD launch). I think the biggest difference in difficulty levels is the ease of worker steals on immortal.

 

[Anysense]

Ah, Snaaty. I remember reading his guide to higher difficulty levels three years ago. That was a very interesting read, impressive how he makes scary deity AI look a pushover. At least it was back then
Thanks, I'll look into it. I can't use those ideas in this game though, because it's already been finished and submitted. That was quite an adventure and I'm not telling the story from the end. So, I can only say that on the whole it was successful, but I'm not telling any details until the time has come; don't want to spoil the fun.

 

[Anysense]

T10 I made a rough plan of early expansion. Naturally I want to claim this awsome corn+marble+FP+forests area ASAP, because Liz is close. Thanks to creative, Moscow will have its second border pop on t25, and worker can start improving corn for second city before its even founded. This is a great spot for NE city due to abundant food and all the forests for NE. Obviously, I don't want to slowbuild it; I want it finished a few turns after I got Literature.
Moscow grows to size 4 prior to settler. The build order is: worker, warrior, warrior, settler, settler, library. Reserach order: Ag, Ah, Writing. Then banking gold while library is being built. Moscow is already very productive, so it's not like I need early BW. I have all the production I need now, and therefore the most likely research path after that is Math->Currency. Backfill with Math and get Alpha if possible. If not, then Alpha can wait till Currency.

Spoiler T10 Plan :

Until recently I would usually beeline Music. It makes sense, because the GL is a good cheap WW, also useful for reliable early failgold. Early Literature means that NE can be built early and that is very important for bulbing. Music is required for MT and is good for trading, because its a big monopoly tech for which you can get many important techs like CoL, Currency, Monarchy etc. And the cherry on the cake is the free GA from Music.
On the other hand, Currency is a great tech by itself, particularly when you expand to 8+ cities early, and that's what I'm going to do. I have records of Math and Currency dates from my recent games where I went for Music first and relied on AI's to research Math and Currency.
Math: t74, 72, 76, 67, 80.
Currency: t82, 79, 89, 86, 93.
Those are, of course, turns, not years. You can see that it varies. It may be ok but may be bad too and its completely random. Math on turn 80 is particularly horrible. That is I can't really rely on AI in this matter. I've been experimenting with Currency beeline lately and the results were pretty good and more stable. Thus I'm going to stick by it.

 

[Anysense]

Read Snaaty's thread a bit. Multiple early worker steals make huge difference to early development. Might not be so easy on deity though. Deity AI's sometimes have axes/chariots by ~2600 BC. There may be a way to incorporate early worker steals and some relatively early rush (~t70) into my strategy without changing the general idea.
I will need a different leader for that, someone with a decent early UU and starting with a warrior. May be Augustus. Imperialistic and Industrious are great for early expansion and relatively comfortable Oracle->Feudalism. Comfortable because these traits save a lot of hammers on both settlers and the Oracle, meaning that you don't sacrifice expansion too much. Then go to war with Praetorians and vassal, say, Gandhi and Liz by t75. Not wipe them out, but incorporate them into your empire. Having them as early vassals should be more than sufficient compensation for all the trouble. That is also what Romans would do.

 

[Anysense]

T12 Worker is out and moves towards wet corn. This is slightly better than improving the dry one first, even though the latter can be improved 1t earlier. The same food by turn 23 but a bit more commerce.
T15 met Pericles.
T16 met Mansa. Good, and even better, I did not forget to put EP's on him. Mansa is Hindu and Liz - Buddhist. Not the best turn of events but isn't a problem either. Normally, Mansa does not plot at cautious and will trade anything even if annoyed. Willem will help too, he is likely to be a common worst enemy for both.
T18 Finished scouting north. North first because there could be more huts; the south will be scouted by warriors, they are built quickly enough thanks to extra hammer on the central tile. Not much found, only a spot for fish-silver city. I can have deer with a second border pop in the corn-lakes city and fur is not worth it.

Spoiler T18 :

T19 I noticed a hut... No, I've already seen it, but forgot about it! Is it still there? Can I have it? We'll see.

Spoiler T19 :

T20 first warrior is out and is heading to the southeast.
T23 Met the rest of AI's.
T25 The hut is still there and beat I Mansa to it by 1 turn! That's incredible luck.
T26 I pop the hut and...

Spoiler T26 The Hut :

Experience On the bright side, I found another marble. Might be useful should Liz beat me to the one I've found earlier.

 

[Anysense]

In the meanwhile, Moscow has produced two warriors, grown to size 4 and started on settler. More food, riverside and forests to the east. This a very rich map indeed. Perhaps, this is where I will settle my third city instead of the pig-wheat-gold site. Only one food resource and no commerce, but it is still a very good spot for a third city and it secures the north.

Spoiler T25 Overview :

T28 Mansa will open borders. Made a note: Mansa Writing t28. I make a lot of such notes, its just I don't want to turn the write up into a dry recount of such tiny events.
T31 further scouting revealed, guess what?

Spoiler :

Yup, more food and riverside. But it also revealed Mansa's culture and a settler party heading to the north

T32 Finished first settler.
T33 Writing. Open borders with everyone except Willem, because some of the good guys already hate him.
Scouted the rest of the north. Nothing interesting except another silver.
T34 Novgorod is founded, corn will be farmed on the next turn. Novgorod will grow to size 2 and build a settler or 2->1 whip it into a worker if I can get BW in time. Either way I'm going to have second worker after fourth city... May be, I will build another worker in Moscow after library, that's turn ~50, whis is also a bit late. Worker before library? Perhaps, I will steal a couple of workers soon.

Spoiler T34 :

Another concern is research. Rough estimate shows that turn 65 Currency is easy, 61-62 is possible but not really necessary. It seems that at some point I will have to hire scientists to get there.

 

[Snowbird]

T23 Met the rest of AI's.

Well, too everyone it's own fun, but if you looked at Snaaty thread he has 7 AI on small map... and this impacts worker stealing, early wars, etc. From my PoV 7 on standard map is a handicap... which I guess could be fine, but not strictly optimal.

 

[Anysense]

I believe quite a few people want to ask something like 'Second worker at four cities? Are you mad?!', so its time to explain early expansion and development.
First, as I'm not going for any kind of early war in this game, I have to claim as much land as possible; which means that my build order after first worker and warriors is settler->settler->settler an so on. The only detour is library and only because I have just one gold in Moscow and because of creative, of course.
Second, one worker is enough to improve all the essential tiles. Most of my cities will have just 1 or 2 improved tiles for some time, but it does not mean that they will work marginal ones. No, I will whip away every unit of population which is not working food or gold as soon as possible. The only exception is floodplains, they are good even without farms. In particular my future GP farms will have to use those until I have enough workerturns to build farms.
So far I haven't even mentioned cottages. Where am I going to build them? Let's see. Novgorod will build National Epic and run as many scientists as possible => no cottages there. Another great spot for cottaging is north of Novgorod. But will I cottage it? No. My first intermediate goal is some kind of gunpowder rush (Cuirs/Rifles/Cannons). For that I need Gunpowder and either Military Tradition or Rifling or Steel. There isn't much to research on the way to any of those techs. Pretty much everything can be bulbed and bulbing is by far more efficient than normal research. Which means that this city should be farmed as well and hire 5+ scientists.
Where else can I build cottages? There is plenty of riverside where most normal players in a normal game would have built cottages without a second thought. However, I'm not a normal player and I'm not playing a normal game. The plan is to Lib->MT/Rifling/Steel around 1AD and my cities must be ready to whip a sizable army straight away. Ideally I want prewhipped barracks and other stuff for overflow so I'm ready to attack a few turns after I got final tech. Naturally, all those riverside grasslands are going to be farmed; otherwise I won't have enough production to build/prewhip all that I need.

 

[Anysense]

T37 I can see Mansa's research - 4 turns to Alpha. This is good, I want some early tech trading. I think 199 is enough to research Math and Currency, so I start teching before library. No point in waiting for multiplier if it only delays Currency. Usually its easy to keep slider at 100% till the end of the game once you have Currency, anyway; so I'm not really losing anything.
There is bad news as well, he's got marble in the BFC. It means that he can steal something important like MoM. Of course I can capture it later, but I'd rather make my first GA 12 turns long too. Besides, taking Mansa's capital would make him a rather weak techer, which is not at all desirable.

Spoiler T37 Timbuktu :

T38 Found London. Not a spectacular capital. There is a settler party moving SE. The only horses that I can have are NE of London. Perhaps, I will claim them later. This city can have only 1FP for food and 1 riverside grassland. Not a high priority spot, I may even not need horses depending on what unit I choose to use.

Spoiler T38 London :

T39 Another warrior reached southern coast. I need some workersteals but I've only found Elizabeth and Mansa.
Gandhi converts to Judaism. Great. Now all three best techers are in different religions.

Spoiler T39 :

 

[Anysense]

Now, stealing workers. I'm really lousy at this thing, I don't practise it much and expect a fair bit of criticism on it.
Stealing from Mansa or Liz would result in absolutely undesirable hit to diplo and risk of retribution, and I have no desire whatsoever to build any military units apart from warriors for MP until turn ~110. Thus, I keep searching for other AI's.
T41 Found Gandhi. There is a settler party moving SE. Perhaps, I will capture a worker building roads or pasturing pigs.

Spoiler T41 Gandhi :

T43 Found Willem. I can't enter his territory, so the warrior will just move along the border looking for opportunity.

Spoiler T43 Willem :

T46 Finally, I can steal a worker. There is a road from Vijayanagara to Pataliputra but due to crossing river it won't help Gandhi's units move faster.

Spoiler T46 :

Let's check diplomatic sutuation.

Spoiler T46 Diplo :

Nobody likes Gandhi. All different religions have its merits Willem is just as unpopular as Gandhi, it could not be different and that's why I brought him in this game. Naturally, it means that I can steal worker from both of them without 'you declared war on our friend' penalty.

I take Gandhi's worker on the corn and on the next turn Willem presented me with another oportunity. It is not clear whether capturing this worker is safe though. There can be a chariot in the fog or any other unit. It is unclear what is he building this road for either. I dont see Willem's culture anywhere to the north or west. Therefore I move 1N to get some more information.
BTW, look at what Mansa is researching. May be, I will trade Currency for CoL and research CS after that.

Spoiler T47 :

T49 Now there two workers building two roads to Utrecht, which is already connected. I have no idea what Willem meant by that. Perhaps, he's got too many workers? Well, I'll just take one of them.

Spoiler T49 :

 

[Anysense]

Back to domestic affairs. I decided to break the chronological order for the sake of consistency. So its turn 44 again.
Third city was settled on turn 40 as planned and named Rostov, so far it's been growing on oasis. Worker finished the corn farm and a mine for Novgorod. On the next turn the borders of Rostov will expand and the worker will start farming wheat. On size 2 it will build another worker. Grow first because I want to work both food resources ASAP.
Moscow is running two scientists to speed up research. With any luck I will trade BW in 5 turns and whip settlers in Novgorod and Moscow.

Spoiler T44 Overview :

T46 All of a sudden Mansa is feeling very generous. Thank you very much, Mansa!

Spoiler T46 The gift :

T49 Mathematics.
Darius would not trade Alpha for Math and Masonry; I need ~100 invested in Alpha to get the deal. Instead, I trade Math+Masonry for BW, the Wheel and Mysticism. Fishing is a very small tech which I'd rather selftech to avoid too early WFYABTA.

Spoiler T49 Tech :

BW reveals copper in Moscow's BFC! I adopt slavery and on the next turn both Novgorod and Moscow whip settlers with near max overflow into workers. The timing could not have been better.

Spoiler T49 Overview :

There is a typo on one of the singposts; worker in Rostov is scheduled for turn 56 not 46.

 

[Anysense]

Tech trading
T50 Elizabeth has just finished Alpha an lacks Math, Masonry and IW. I trade Math->IW with Mansa.

Spoiler 50 Tech :

T51 Trade Math, IW, Masonry for Alpha with Liz. Now I can trade techs with other civs. I trade Writing for Meditation with Frederick and for Pottery with Pericles. I also give Gandhi Math in a peace deal, no point in being greedy. Willem still refuses to talk... Who cares?

Spoiler T51 :

T52 Trade Alpha and Meditation for Polytheism with Gandhi.
Gift IW to Darius.
T53 IW for peace with Willem.
Poly, Meditation, Masonry for Fishing with Pericles. I was rather short on worker turns for roading and after some hesitation I decided that early foreign trade routes are worth trading one more cheap tech. Selfteching Fishing before Currency would have delayed the latter by 2 turn.
T54 Trade Poly and Pottery for Sailing with Frederick.
I backfilled everything I need and gave away what I could afford to give. Being generous usually pays back very well in diplo. Besides, I don't want AI's to trudge behind, on the contrary, I want a very good tech pace in this game.

Edit: I did not give Willem IW for peace. He offered a peace treaty without any demands and then I gave him IW, which was enough to get him to cautious. Better avoid the worst enemy status to be able to trade with him.

 

[Anysense]

Early expansion goes very slow, on turn 54 I've just settled my fifth city. Former Indian worker starts pasturing cows right away. The wWorker stolen from Willem will come soon and help mining gems. Scout will look at wheat-cows area to see whether I still can have something there. If Mansa settled with the wheat in the second ring then I might be able to steal it.

Spoiler T54 :

Mansa oracled Calendar on turn 52 and he's got marbleShould I trade Currency for Calendar and chop MoM or better trade CoL and research CS for early bureau? I don't know. This kind of a trade off is difficult to evaluate. Too early elaborate anyway; there is a chance that Mansa will research Currency next or start building MoM and refuse to trade Calendar.
T55 Darius researched Currency. I trade Polytheism for 20. Better than nothing.
T56 Mansa began researching Metal Casting! I decide to build (chop more like) MoM. Worker from Novgorod will improve marble. Worker built in Moscow finished mining copper and together with the two, currently working on Kiev's surroundings, will chop MoM. Rostov will finish another worker on the next turn (this will be sixth) that will improve sheep and farm floodplains around St. Petersburg.

Spoiler :

T59 Mansa did not bother with the wheat at all. Fine, I will claim it with the next settler. Five forests make this spot really sweet.

Spoiler T59 East :

Somehow Rostov is connected by the lake with the rest of the world, I had no idea this is possible. Ships can't pass there, can they? But a traderoute is possible.

Spoiler T59 Rostov :

Edit: corrected mistakes.

 

[Anysense]

T62 Currency
Extra traderoutes in 5 cities net 10 and I can build wealth and trade gold; not much gold available for trade right now though. Sold Alpha for 20 to Willem (he would not give 30). Darius would trade gold per turn, but no connection yet.
I put one turn of research into Calendar and trade it on the next turn. Also trade Currency for Monoteism and 20 with Gandhi. Then I trade Monoteism around for a total amount of 80.

Spoiler T62 :

Now that I have some gold to fund further research its time to pick next tech; it's not so obvious now that I can't trade CoL and research CS. I need something that nobody has researched yet, preferably something useful. I choose Aesthetics because AI tends to ignore it early and it is on the way to Literature.
On the next turn (65) Gandhi finished Aesthetics, meaning that I just wasted one turn of research I'll tech Compass then.

T67
Moscow 6->4 whips a settler. It does not really delay MoM because imperialistic settler costs only ~70 and much of it is covered by a 2-pop whip. On the other hand, waiting for MoM would delay expansion and I'm already falling behind the schedule. Moreover, that could cost me a very good spot for the next city.
Rostov is size 4 now, working two golds, and building another settler. I think it should be 4->3 whip, don't want to whip away both golds. Chopped forest into granary in Novgorod for a 3->2 whip.

Granaries
Its a common knowledge that slavery is the most powerful civic in the game and granary is the most important building. However, its not always clear when and how you ought to build it. To beging with, 4->2 whip granary is horrible. It is so awfully slow that the only reason I would ever do it is absence of forests or necessity to save forests for space ship parts or key Wonders like NE or MoM. Making granary a 1-pop whip with one chop or simply building it with 2 chops makes for much faster growth.
The question 'when' is more difficult to answer. Although granaries are great, they still take time to pay back, and therefore are built only after the first phase of expansion is over and all contested land is settled. Otherwise AI will grab some good spots while you are building granaries. There are exceptions, of course. For example, it is not at all a problem if you are planning very early warfare.

Spoiler T67 Overview :

 

[Pedro78]

Very nice write-up -- entertaining, easy to read and full of useful tips.

I don't think waiting for Cuirs (or I guess this is what you're up to) is an optimal strategy for early space -- imo war should come much earlier (20-25 cities by 1AD is a good aim). But you're doing it in a very clever way so it's an interesting read nonetheless. I'm not sure at what date you actually landed your Spaceship, but looking at the map I have no doubt you'll crush the old T224 record.

Not sure why you're playing with Cathy (very good for the early game but overall much weaker than the usual Lizzy/Darius, not to mention HC), but it should only make a ~1500AD win more impressive

 

[Anysense]

Thanks for 'useful tips'
I'm not sure what is the best approach either. Looked at some of the deity/normal Space Colony games and they are all more about exploiting lovefest than any kind of war; quite a few are OCC games, not comparable at all. Conquest/Domination games aren't very helpful too, they are just different. Some kind of early warfare is what I want to try next, and different leader, of course. This game isn't perfect and there is a lot of room for improvement, but I'm a bit tired of doing the same; want to try something new. May be, take part in the current G-Major.

 

[Anysense]

T69 Pericles has completed The Great Wall. Excellent! Next turn some AI's will have decent amounts of gold for trade. That is unusually late GW. It is almost always built ~1000 years earlier. First random event happened, improved relationship between Mali and Greece. I've forgotten that I'm playing with events this time. It seems unlikely that they will have any effect on the game, not if they happen once in ~50 turns, anyway.

T70 I've built the MoM. After choping 5 forests for that I'm a bit short on worker turns. There is jungled banana still unimproved and I'm going to settle a completely jungled city
Not as much gold available for trade as I hoped there would be. Only traded Math for 100 with Frederick. Perhaps, it was worth selling Calendar to Darius for 50. It isn't a monopoly tech and I'm going to have Compass in 2 turns. Overall tech pace in this game is rather slow; only Mansa is his usual self, teching like mad. May be, trade Alpha to Pericles? That would improve his reserach rate. Turn 70 no Alpha... What was he doing all that time? I did sell Alpha to him on the next turn for 30.

Spoiler T70 :

T72 Compass
I trade Compass+45 for CoL with Mansa and start reseraching CS. I'd rather not wait till Darius trades CoL, that could easily take 10-20 turns. Frederick is already afraid that I'm becoming too advanced.
GP pool is getting contaminated due to MoM. Not a very big problem. If this GP happens to be Great Artist, I will use him to start Golden Age later. It's not like I'm going to have a free GA from Music. Slowteching Philosophy isn't very inviting though
Tech situation is rather awkward, with Mansa running away and the rest falling behind, and my btp isn't very impressive. Does not look like an ideal setup for a great game.

Spoiler T73 :

T74 Time to settle some pathetic, workerturns hungry cities.

Spoiler T74 City 8 :

T75 Elizabeth wants Compass and I give it to her. Usually she is teching well and worth getting to friendly. Plus 1 diplo from "you gave us help' isn't a big deal but makes the whole thing easier. I also traded resources to her and soon will have +1 from that too.

T76 Darius researched Philosophy. Why does it have to be him? He can be bribed only at friendly => no shared war bonus; of all my resources he wants only marble and banana, and of course, none of my cities has his religion

Spoiler T76 :

We are getting close to the troublesome beg from Mansa (T78), but the submission hasn't been checked yet, so I can't share saves.

 

[Anysense]

The maintenance is getting rather high as I settle more cities. Mansa has 120 but I have nothing to offer to him. May be, I can beg? He is pleased towards me at the moment, which makes begging possible. I need to know how much I can beg, otherwise I risk wasting the opportunity.
Link to Kaitzilla's begging guide https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/land-target-and-manipulating-the-ai.561148/#post-14116168
First, I know Mansa since turn 16 and it is turn 78.
Another important factor is Land Target which is explained in the same thread. Let's count tiles. Nine for both myself and Mansa, so I am his land target.

Spoiler T78 Land Target :

The formulae also requires the number of soldiers, yours and the AI's in question. If you don't know the AI's soldiers count, then you can get a rough estimate - your soldiers count divided by the power ratio. Rough because army is not the only factor affecting the power rating and deviation can by significant.

Spoiler T78 Demographics :

My soldiers count is 63000. Estimate for Mansa is 63000/0.4=157500. But according to demographics screen his army can be bigger, up to 205000 soldiers. I don't know that for sure, but it is possible, seeing as he is on top of the scoreboard.
Using first number makes Begging_Ceiling = ((78-16 + 50) * 2 * ((63000 + 100)/(157500 + 100)) * 3 = 269.0558.
Using 205000 brings Begging_Ceiling to ((78-16 + 50) * 2 * ((63000 + 100)/(205000 + 100)) * 3 = 206.744.
So its fine either way, isn't it?

Spoiler T78 The beg :

What is wrong? After a long break from Civ I forgot the details and just grabbed the formula and missed the fact that there is another modificator. To get the amount of gold you can beg you need to devide Begging_Ceiling by 2 or 3, depending on whether you are or are not in financial trouble. The term is explained here My personal thread: Clarification of certain game mechanics
I don't have a screenshot of financial advisor, but it seems that I'm not in a financial trouble. Still, if Mansa's army is the largest or close to that, it brings the amount of gold that I can beg to 206/2=103 or just above that, meaning that he would reject 120 beg.
After all, there is no mystery in this beg, its just me being very stupid

Edit: My calculations here are incorrect. For explanation see this post Achieving an early Deity Space victory