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It doesn't help, as long as we don't have a way to pass that "saved" food on to another town which can use it for faster growth during that time. Or in other words: "avoiding" food overrun is not an objective in itself, channeling that food into other towns is what is generating the benefit.
Not sure I understand your point here -- that 4f overrun at Pop7 can be traced directly to the use of the Hills and Forest tiles, which for the Pop7 Settler-pump phase would be worked for their shields, not their food -- so if we could give those tiles away permanently to other towns, we are giving that food away (along with the shields).

Or are you referring to the fact that, since they only give 1fpt, Hills/Forest do need to be 'subsidised' by also working a high-food (>2fpt) tile in order to achieve 'growth-worthy' fpt? For K'stadt, could that be achieved even in Despotism by irrigating the Sugar-bonus? (Although that's probably not worth doing, right...?) There's no way of giving Frankfurt a 3fpt tile until we get Steam, though...
Max MP in Despotism is 2, and we already have 2 MP in O'stadt.
Damn -- is that a Conquests thing? Or is it yet another Emperor-level handicap? I'm sure I've been able to use more than 2 despotic MP in my Vanilla Regent/Monarch games (and in CivDOS it was always max. 3 MP per city under Despotism/ Monarchy/ Communism, even at King/Emp difficulty, not that that's really relevant here...)
 
Despotism has always had 2 max MP, at every difficulty level in every version of this game.

You sure you didn't get more when you switched to Monarchy?
 
I am lurking on this game. I want to eventually play it so I am just reading the comments without looking at maps.

There seem to be some discussion about micromanaging being a buzz kill. Lanzelot has pointed out that it is essential at higher levels, like in chess, every move must be carefully considered to beat better players.

I find micromanaging a buzzkill for the most part... civassist was a godsend for me.

Any way has anybody ever considered "speed" civ ? . You play as fast as you can to win and best time overall wins among contestants.

Just wonderin.
 
Despotism
70% Tax
00% Science
30% Luxury

255 gold, +12 gpt

Republic in 14 turns.

City Builds
  1. Oasenstadt (6) settler in 1, grows in 1.
  2. Konigsberg (4) worker in 2, grows in 2.
  3. Kolossusstdat (4) catapult in 3, grows in 16.
  4. Hamburg (5) vHorse in 2, zero growth.
  5. Frankfurt (1) temple in 22, grows in 12.
  6. Munich (1) catapult in 17, grows in 7.

Resources
01 Horses

Luxury
-- Zilch --

City Count
11 England
09 Scandanavia
08 India
06 China
06 Germany (Acronym01 People)

Military
06 Worker
06 Warrior
01 Archer
01 Spearman
05 Horse
02 Curragh

Current Units: 21
Allowed Units: 24
Support Costs: 0 gpt

Compared to England (Republic) we are Weak.
Compared to Scandanavia (Despotism) we are average.
Compared to China (Despotism) we are average.
Compared to India (Monarchy) we are average.

We are at peace with everybody.

Notes
Worker Tasks (NW to SE)
One worker 1W of Frankfurt, plains, no movement..
One worker 1W-1NW of Munich, roading a hill, 3 more turns.
One worker 1S of Frankfurt, hill, no movement.
One worker 1W of Munich, roading a hill, 1 more turn.
One worker 1SW of Munich, roading a hill, 6 more turns.
One worker 1S of Munich, irriagating grass, 3 more turns.

We are not in a good situation. As long as the Vikings and the Brits keep fighting we are okay. But we really need to raze Aarhus and Coepnhagen so that we can grow.

No luxuries. Not good. Makes life hard. Need happy/content citzens.

Settler pump is messed up; need to fix to get to 5 turn settler pump (if possible).

Where does our next city go? Do we abandon Munich and rebuild it and at the same time reduce its flip risk?

Need a revised city dot map based on current city placement (ours and theirs), but too late tonoght to make one.

Whereever our new city goes, how soon can we get it connected? And defended?

One barracks (Hamburg) and two harbors (Hamburg and Colossus City).

Munich will be connected this IBT.

Plans
Coming soon.
 
Some ideas:
  • Interrupt the worker who is currently irrigating that grassland and make it build a road instead. The road will provide immediate return on investment, while the irrigation is completely useless for the next 16-20 turns. After that road, he can also road the other grasslands perhaps, so that they can be irrigated without loss of time later, when we are in Republic?
  • I also already though a bit about settler-disbanding Munich (someone please rename that to München), but it does not bring benefit: a settler takes 15 turns to build, so the new town could start growing only in 15 turns from now. In that time München an already grow to size 2.5 and both towns would reach size 7 at approximately the same time. (After size 7 the extra food is no longer important as we'll grow mainly via worker-join.) So we can as well leave München where it is, and let it already put 15 shields into a barracks instead of 30 into a settler.
  • Yesterday I already contacted England to see, whether they would sell Republic. But they won't for anything we can offer. However, here is another idea: if we can buy Monarchy from India and then Monarchy+something from England, we could get avoid 14 turns of Despotism. I don't have Civ at the moment, so can't check whether we have something to offer India, and also there's a high risk that we won't have enough "something" to actually get Rep from England after the Monarchy-deal with India, but it's worth it to check this idea in more detail. (Most probably it won't work, though.)
  • Sugestions for next towns: 8 can be planted next (it can use a floodplain in 3 out of 5 turns, if we run one of the suggested 5-turn cycles in O'stadt!), and also a town next to the Viking dyes resource (1S of the gold hill?). The yellow spot could be founded after that, but if we opt for tjs282's suggestion of moving it more inland for more shields (which I like a lot), then we need to wait until we've cleared a swamp there. (Perhaps we can do both: yellow spot and then later another one on the swamp? Yellow has enough food for a scientist instead of the swamp tile.) In any case, in the next turns a worker needs to start clearing the swamp for #7. We ought to aim at settling that town within the next 20 turns?!

@tjs282: yes, you got it quite right: giving a hill to a town is not really "giving food to it", it is rather "taking food away from it", especially when Hamburg can work a 2f coast or plains instead of the hill...
So even though we have surplus food in O'stadt, we have no means of "passing" that food to another city. :(

Regarding your idea of irrigating the sugar: see Civilopedia under "Despotism Penalty"... :D


@robbus: what do you mean by "speed"? Real time or in-game time (=number of turns)? A contest for in-game time has already been in place for several years: just check out the GOTM competition. Every month there are medals for those players who manage this month's game in the least number of turns. (One medal for each victory condition, as of course a spaceship game takes more turns than a quick'n'dirty conquest victory...)
I've never heard about a contest in real time, though... :D
 
Revised Dot Map with City Tile Allocation

01_map_A9_zps48158737.jpg


There are faint lines in the tile 2S of Munich to indicate that tile is inaccessible from Munich.

Revised Dot Map
01_map_A1_zps10d435e8.jpg


City 9 is in its original location though there has been some discussion about moving it.

If we settle City 8 next and send the worker 1W of Munich to drain the marsh for City 7, then which tile will we road to connect City 8 and the next city in that area? If City 10 (not dotted) is on the gold hill NW of Oslo, then we should road the three hills to connect these cities (18 worker turns, plus movement). If City 9 is next in the area, then connecting City 8 via a jungle road and then having another jungle road to City 9 is the way to go (also 18 WT, plus movement).

I would like to have two workers on City 7 prep work and two more on roading to City 8 and beyond.

And maybe, just maybe, be able to have 2 workers on jungle clearing duty around City 8 by the end of these turns. I don't like dedicating 2 workers this early to that task but a) the sooner we start the sooner it is done and b) due to space limitations, I think we just have to. I really hope I am wrong about that, however.
 
I agree- we really can't avoid spending time clearing jungle and marsh at this point. At least, clearing some of it...

As to the irrigation of that grassland, I majorly goofed there. Wasn't thinking at all. Was probably playing that turnset a bit too late at night...
 
My 3 cents:
  • We should leave München in its current place now. (See some more details above.) Instead of the "inaccessible" tile, it can use the grassland E-SE. (Giving again the necessary 5 grass/7 hills.)
  • I would not build roads in jungle (9 worker turns). #8 and #9 don't need to be connected yet. Let's build the roads, after clearing the jungle first.
  • Whether we move #9 inland or not, depends on how fast we have the swamp cleared. If we have a spare settler before that swamp is ready, I would just plant it on the current #9.
 
That's what I was saying, clear the jungle then build the roads, but we're at the point where we really have to get to clearing the jungle.
 
There are faint lines in the tile 2S of Munich to indicate that tile is inaccessible from Munich.
From its current position, yes -- but that foodmap has not (yet) been updated to reflect that Muenchen's BFC now has a Grass at 1E-1SE instead.
City 9 is in its original location though there has been some discussion about moving it.
Putting City9 on the Marsh between the hills and the bananas (distance=9 from O'stadt) rather than the coastal jungle (at distance=7) would give it many more land tiles (i.e. shields), much less overlap with City 8, and potentially access to Oslo's Dyes after its first border-pop. Looking at the map again now, I'm almost tempted to say move it even further than that, onto one of the jungle tiles (which would be auto-cleared by the Settler) at distance=10: either 1S from the mooted Marsh to get both the bananas in its first 8 tiles, or 1SE to get both the bananas and the Dyes (problem: this tile is not on the coast). Though how much (more) corruption we'd have to deal with at distance=10, compared to distance=7 or 9, is still an open question.
@Lanzelot: Do you aim to give 12 tiles to all first and second ring cities? If so, then the coastal jungle between the two banana-tiles would give both City10 ('Goldbergstadt'?) and Oslo (which we would keep after capture, right?) a little more breathing-space.
If we settle City 8 next and send the worker 1W of Munich to drain the marsh for City 7, then which tile will we road to connect City 8 and the next city in that area?
For the purposes of connecting City8, City9 ('Bananenbaumstadt'?) and Goldbergstadt, then roading from K'berg along the line of Hills 1SW-1S-1SE-1S makes sense, since that road can then be used to connect all 3 cities. Roading 4 hills, including movement, using only 1 worker = (1+6) x 4 = 28 turns, I think? If so, then using two Workers to do that job would be sensible: (1+3) x 4 = 16 turns. (Depending on where it's placed, we might or might not need a final jungle-road to Bananenstadt -- but 3 workers would be better for that).
If City 10 (not dotted) is on the gold hill NW of Oslo, then we should road the three hills to connect these cities
Leaving aside the general consensus on these boards that settling on a bonus-tile rather than next to it is a bad idea... :mischief: and thinking only in terms of connecting Goldbergstadt, then it would actually take fewer (1+6+1+3=11) worker-turns to road the Hill 1E-1SE of K'berg, then go 1S across the river and road the Grass (bearing in mind that once we get Engineering, the river-movement penalty disappears). Downside to that plan is that this road would (for now) only serve Goldbergstadt, rather than 3 cities as described above.
I would like to have two workers on City 7 prep work and two more on roading to City 8 and beyond.
And maybe, just maybe, be able to have 2 workers on jungle clearing duty around City 8 by the end of these turns. I don't like dedicating 2 workers this early to that task but a) the sooner we start the sooner it is done and b) due to space limitations, I think we just have to. I really hope I am wrong about that, however.
So this might be a good time for me to repeat my earlier point about needing MOOOOAAARRR Workers than Settlers right now ;)
Regarding your idea of irrigating the sugar: see Civilopedia under "Despotism Penalty"...
Yeah I know about the penalty, but what I didn't know was whether Sugar gave +1f or +2f (either way, a mined SugarPlain would show as 2f under Despotism). I found the answer in the 'C3C differences from Vanilla' thread by Arathorn. So no, it's not worth irrigating that tile instead, I see that now :sad:
 
Putting City9 on the Marsh between the hills and the bananas (distance=9 from O'stadt) rather than the coastal jungle (at distance=7) would give it many more land tiles (i.e. shields), much less overlap with City 8, and potentially access to Oslo's Dyes after its first border-pop. Looking at the map again now, I'm almost tempted to say move it even further than that, onto one of the jungle tiles (which would be auto-cleared by the Settler) at distance=10: either 1S from the mooted Marsh to get both the bananas in its first 8 tiles, or 1SE to get both the bananas and the Dyes (problem: this tile is not on the coast). Though how much (more) corruption we'd have to deal with at distance=10, compared to distance=7 or 9, is still an open question.
@Lanzelot: Do you aim to give 12 tiles to all first and second ring cities? If so, then the coastal jungle between the two banana-tiles would give both City10 ('Goldbergstadt'?) and Oslo (which we would keep after capture, right?) a little more breathing-space.
The spot between the two bananas is indeed a good city site. However, I would found that town "in addition to" #9, not "instead of". Don't be afraid to settle a bit tight. Remember that in a space race game we won't research any optionals, and as this is only Emperor, the AI can't be expected to research an industrial tech for us (especially after we have beaten them down... :mischief:). That most probably means: no hospitals for us. So we need to be able to work all prime tiles (corruption-wise) with size 12 cities. Better have one too many than not being able to use core land.

Leaving aside the general consensus on these boards that settling on a bonus-tile rather than next to it is a bad idea... :mischief:
Who said that...? :mischief: Only settling on a food bonus is a bad idea, because it destroys the bonus, but a shield bonus or a commerce bonus is not affected, so one may settle on them no problem.

So this might be a good time for me to repeat my earlier point about needing MOOOOAAARRR Workers than Settlers right now ;)
You are definitely right, just 3 more settlers in order to settle the good spots, while we still can. (Also consider, that unit support would kill us in Republic, if we haven't got a few more towns till then...)
 
Plans

New cities build order:
On City Site #8.
On City Site #7 (might happen in 10 turns).
On City Site #9 (which I will not get to do).
On City Site #10 (not exactly sure where it would go).

Next Worker Tasks(NW to SE)
  • One worker 1W of Frankfurt: irrigate plains (4 WT), road plains (3WT), move to 1N of Frankfurt (1WT), irrigate plains (4WT); 12 WT total.
  • One worker 1W-1NW of Munich: finish roading that hill (3WT) move to City #7 site (2WT), help drain the swamp (7 or 8 WTs), 12 WT total.
  • One worker 1S of Frankfurt: road that hill (6WT), send to 1S-1SW of the capital via Konigsberg (crossing the river on the last part of movement) (2WT), irrigate plains for City 7 (4WT), 12 WT total.
  • One worker 1W of Munich: finish roading that hill this IBT, move to City #7 site (2WT), start to drain swamp (16 WT without help, 18 WT total.
  • One worker 1SW of Munich: finsih roading that hill (6WT), either mine that hill (12 WT) or move 1N and road that hill (7 WT), 13 WT minimum.
  • One worker 1S of Munich: halt irrigating this turn, road the grass (3WT), move 1NE to grass (1WT), road grass (3WT). then either move to hill 1E of Munich to road (7WT) or mine/help mine a hill (12 WT), 14 WT minimum.
  • New worker in Konigsberg in 2: move to City Site #7 (2WT), drain swamp (maybe 6 WT by this point), 10 WT total.

Three workers are assigned to draining the swamp on City Site #7 and one will be improving a plains tile for Cit #7 to use.


Next City Builds
  • Oasenstadt: settler -> settler (settler pump).
  • Konigsberg: worker -> worker (worker pump).
  • Kolossusstdat: catapult in 3 -> catapult in 4 -> catapult in 4.
  • Hamburg: vHorse in 2 -> vSpear in 4 (for City #8) -> vSpear in 4 (for City #7) -> vHorse in 6.
  • Frankfurt: temple in 22 -> barracks?.
  • Munich: catapult in 17.
  • City 8: temple?

I know the game values Horses over Spears but I do not like using Horses as our only city defense. Thus, I have us building two Spears, one going to each of our new cities, and then back to Horses.

Once we get the settler pump going, we will have a need for more defenders. Frankfurt is one option. Kolossusstdat is another, after we get some catapults built.

In Frankfurt, work the irrigated plain instead of forest; temple still in 22, grow in 6 instead of 12.

The Republic -> Literature. (Not likely but remotely possible.) We can trade Republic for Construction and Currency. No one knows Literature. It is an optional tech but we will need libraries for science.

If we do learn Republic early, I will hand the game off at that point.

Trading
India won't sell us Monarchy. The pacificst brat will allow us to buy Currency for Code of Laws, Philosophy, 5 of our 12 gpt and all 255 gold we have. England does not have Currency, but I don't think that Currency will get us Republic.

EDIT:
I do not plan to play anytime soon. Probably not until Sunday night (local).
 
Everything fine, except for
  • "Kolossusstadt" is consistently misspelled... ;)
  • Kolossusstdat catapult in 3 -> catapult in 4 -> catapult in 4.
    We really don't need catapults. They are too slow and always miss anyway...
    Let Kolossusstadt rather put some shields into a Lib- or Marketplace-prebuild. Thanks to the Kolossus, it will be our best commerce city!
  • Also München should build something different than catapults.
  • Like catapults, temples are also a waste of shields, so perhaps better barracks in #8? (Frankfurt is building a temple, only because we want to steal the iron. If we get Literature in time, that will be switched to a library instead.)

Some suggestions for city renaming:
Konigsberg -> Königsberg
Munich -> München
Frankfurt -> Eisenstadt (= "Iron City")

(BTW, tjs282: I really like your inventive city names...!)

Edit: regarding the trading: yes, that's too expensive. Better keep our cash for some upgrades and/or deficit research, once we are in Republic. We should get all those techs for Republic. (Good luck that it's so expensive, so England will certainly not sell it... I wonder, where they got it from, though. There aren't any huts in this game, right?)
 
We really don't need catapults. They are too slow and always miss anyway...

It depends.

In a game where you plan on conquering the world catapults and siege weapons are vital. The more siege weapons you have the less losses your units will take. Catapults don't always miss, you just need a lot of them in order to do the necessary damage.

In a game like this where we are going after the space ship build, siege weapons are not as vital. However, we still do need them just in case the AI gets any ideas about attacking us or if we decide to war another civ for the purpose of slowing them down.
 
Thought I would post the first five turns.

I will play the next five tomorrow night.


0 0550 BC

Rename:
  • Konigsberg -> Königsberg
  • Munich -> München
  • Frankfurt -> Eisenstadt (= "Iron City")

Work irrigated plain for Eisenstadt.

München: catapult in 17 -> barracks in 17.
Kolossusstadt: catapult in 3 -> palace in 59 (market prebuild).

Wake irrigating worker at München and start roading instead.

Five Turn Settler Pump (Post #124)
T1 (5f): 3 floodplains, 1 mined oasis, 1 irrigated plain, city center: 4s
T2 (5f): same as T1 plus forest on growth: 6s
T3 (3f): 1 floodplain, 1 mined oasis, 4 irrigated plains, city center: 7s
T4 (3f): same as T3: 7s
T5 (4f): 2 floodplains, 1 mined oasis, 3 irrigated plains, city center plus forest on growth: 8s
4 + 6 + 7 + 7 + 8 = 32

[IBT]
Oasenstadt: settler -> settler in 8.

1 0530 BC

England learned Polytheism.

Workers
1S of Eisenstadt, begins to road that hill.
2S of Eisenstadt, moves to 1S of Ossenstadt towards City Site #7.
1W of Eisenstadt, irrigates.

Settler for 8 1SE and 1S, crossing a river.
[IBT]
Königsberg: worker -> worker in 5.
Hamburg: vHorse -> vSpear in 4.

2 0510 BC

New Horse moves to 1NW of Königsberg.

Our Curragh finds Japan.

Japan has 9 cities and 19 gold. They lack Masonry, Philosphy, Code of Laws, Map Making and Polytheism. Having just met us they are already annoyed, so we must presume that they have an abudance of bad attitude, bad breath and body odor.
We offer them Philosophy, but all they have is 19 gold, no gold per turn.

Workers
New worker heads to City Site #7.
Settler for 8 moves 1S onto jungle.
First worker arrives at City Site #7.
[IBT]

3 00490 BC

Viking rSword moves adjancent to München but is on their side of the border.
Send lastest vHorse to München.

Exploring Curragh tresspasses Japan's water borders.

We gain back our 9 gpt we sent to Scandanavia.

Workers
1W-1NW of München heads to City Site #7.
Second worker arrives at City Site #7.
First arrival at City Site #7 starts draining the marsh, 16 turns.
Settler for 8 moves 1SW, jungle -> jungle, and is now at home, 3SW of Königsberg.

With the rSword across the border at München and the grass 1S of München now roaded, moving the worker to the other grass tile seems risky. Move that worker 1N, into the city and 1E, across a river onto a roaded hill.

In Oasenstadt Work 2 irrigated plains, 2 flood plains, 1 mined oasis and the forest for 7 shields, +3 food and 8 commerce. These stats are the same as the recommended plan of 4 irrigated plains, 1 flood plain and 1 mined oasis and easier to micro-manage.
[IBT]
Pre-boot from Japan (expected).

4 0470 BC

Viking rsword moves on and vanishes from sight.
Horse in München moves west across the river, so it can move more freely on laster turns, if needed.

Workers
Move our worker back across the river into München. Two turns wasted.
Third worker arrives at City Site #7.
Second worker helps drain the marsh, now 8 turns.

New city is built. Thought about naming it Die Achte Stadt or Stadt Nummer Acht but finally decide on Die Siedler von Catan.
Die Siedler von Catan starts a barracks.
[IBT]

5 0450 BC

Spacebar the vHorse in the hills.

Workers
Worker moves onto grass 1S of München.
Worker 1W of Eisenstadt begins to road the now irrigated plains.
Third worker joins the fun in draining the swamp for City Site #7, 5 turns.

In Oasenstadt, work 3rd irrgated plains instead of the forest, 6 shields produced and 4 extra food. Settler builds in 1, grows in 1.
[IBT]
And the save is attached.
 

Attachments

New city is built. Thought about naming it Die Achte Stadt or Stadt Nummer Acht but finally decide on Die Siedler von Catan.[/INDENT]

:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:
One of my favorite games. :)
 
It depends.

In a game where you plan on conquering the world catapults and siege weapons are vital. The more siege weapons you have the less losses your units will take. Catapults don't always miss, you just need a lot of them in order to do the necessary damage.

In a game like this where we are going after the space ship build, siege weapons are not as vital. However, we still do need them just in case the AI gets any ideas about attacking us or if we decide to war another civ for the purpose of slowing them down.

lurker's comment:

Surely you're better off without paying the unit support...
 
In a game where you plan on conquering the world catapults and siege weapons are vital.
It depends... ;)
On Deity level this statement may be correct. However on levels up to and including Monarch, siege weapons only slow you down. Without catapults, domination/conquest can be achieved much faster than with catapults. :crazyeye: These shields are better invested into additional horsemen. Better risk the occasional loss of a horseman once in a while, than to have a huge amount of shields wasted on slow and useless catapults.


Emperor/Demigod are a border case. Sometimes the AI has so many defensive units, that siege weapons make sense in order to reduce losses, but in most cases (especially with a good start position) I play domination/conquest games also on these levels without siege weapons. (Experience seems to support this: whenever I manage to capture a couple of siege weapons from the AI, I may use them in the next 1-2 attacks, but already after 5 turns they are so far behind the current front line (especially when I have Cavalry) that I usually disband them.)
 
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