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Acronym's Bucket List Succession Game - sign-ups open!

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Acronym, May 27, 2014.

  1. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Nearly done -- only 2 more turns to play, and those shouldn't take too long to log.

    I would have been finished already, but on the last IBT, our Internet-ResLabs caused a mass Cultural expansion of all our farms, and I had to spend more time than I'd expected rearranging the citizens in the bigger farms to keep the 4T-research going (which should now be sustainable for the rest of the game, provided that farms are kept under control).

    The next IBT will be interesting/fun, because I'll get SpaceFlight (next target: SynFib), allowing me to switch my prebuild(s), and get Apollo (in O'stadt) and hopefully 3 Ship-parts built in one fell swoop :) but the turn itself shouldn't consist of more than placing some more new farms, and maybe joining some Slaves to some of the established farms and turning them into Scientists. And my last turn should be more of the same ... so long as no-one else DoWs us!

    I hope to be able to post the turnlog and savegame this evening (CET).
     
  2. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    What a coincidence: I'm just reading my "Word of the Day" (an email service I'm registered at). And guess what:

    :crazyeye:
     
  3. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    I didn't know the origin of that before now, but Shakespeare either invented or popularized about 90% of the idiomatic phrases used in modern English, so I'm not surprised that he's the origin of it.
     
  4. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Turnlog spoiler'd to remove clutter
    Spoiler :
    T282, 1460 AD (T0)
    • High-shield core cities set to Wonder (pre)building
    • Most Farms massaged to minimum/ negative growth, surplus Pop reassigned as Scientists. Can now drop Sci to 30% and still get Rockets in 1T, now with >530g windfall.
    • Farm build-orders changed to Settlers and Workers for the most part, some Wealth (in Pop1 tundra-farms), a few boats in currently corrupt 3rd-ring cities.
    • Settlers rushed in a few towns for disbandment, to allow more farms to be built. Useless Harbours sold
    • Far too many Workers have been improving useless shield-tiles in farm zones -- MM job for the next turn will be to irrigate+rail as much flatland as possible instead.
    • Redeploy spare Infs from Frankfurt/Tosontsengel back to Bad-Insel, and south towards Japanese conquests
    • Gandhi doesn't want Oil -- SciMeth sold instead for Navi, Economics, World Map, 115GPT and 420g. (He has only 422 in his treasury -- how can he afford that?! Is he going to DoW us soon...?).
    IBT:
    • Rockets --> Ecology (5T @ 100% Sci, -22GPT)
    • Trondheim FP --> Lib (1T, 16s overrun)
    • Bergen Bomber --> PolStn (5T)
    • E'stadt Panzer --> MechInf (2T)
    • Brandenburg Barracks -->MechInf (3T)
    • Jungelstadt Lib --> CH
    • Cambridge, Ipswich, Berwick abandoned
    • Palace expansion!
    T283, 1465 AD (T1)
    • Arty bombards + eCav kills vSam near Izumo (1-0)
    • Bombers attack Yokohama -- 1 rPike, 1 pop-point killed (2-0)
    • Richthofen kills 2nd Pike in Yokohama (3-0)
    • Richthofen II kills 2 Pikes guarding Shimnoseki (5-0)
    • Matsuyama becomes new Jap-cap
    • Hengest's Warwick Batt. kills Sam+Pike guarding Nagasaki (7-0)
    • Jap conquests: Pop set to Scientists, building Wealth
    • Eisenbergtal founded
    • We have Alu near Stockholm, Portsmoth, Bristol, Izumo and Osaka -- Alpha Centauri, here we come...!
    IBT:
    • We lost our Indian Ivory! Gandhi will give Ivory, Incense, World Map, 158GPT and 220g for Atomic Theory. OK then. Still don't know how he can afford this though...
    • Southbound Transport carrying Inf attacked by 2 Privateers. Sinks the first, but left with 1HP -- sunk by the second
    • T'heim: Lib --> Uni (2T)
    • K'stadt: CommDock --> OffPlat (12T)
    • Catan: Panzer -->MecInf
    • Shantung, Elastischestadt, Birmingham, Portsmouth, Jorckflussmund, Salzburg: Settlers
    T284, 1470 AD (T2)
    • Bombers moved to Stavanger (can attack Matsuyama from here if need be)
    • More flatland irrigated and railed
    • Founded Goldhirschstadt, Eisendorsch, Eisdorf, Schneedorf, Farbendorf, Waldorf, Bergerdorf, Pechblendefeld, Pferdemarkt -- Tundra-town Pop converted to Scientist, other farms will grow to Pop5/6
    • Now making 130GPT, but can't do faster research (already at 100%)
    IBT:
    • Hamburg: CommDock --> OffPlat (9T)
    • Birke: Settler --> Worker (10T)
    • Norwich: Settler --> Wealth
    • Aarhus OffPlat --> Destroyer (4T)
    • Shimonoseki: Settler --> Pop1 --> Wealth
    • Eisenstadt: MecInf --> MecInf
    • Weizenheim: MecInf --> Wealth
    T285, 1475 AD (T3)
    • Founded Nipponkanal, Regenbogenbucht, Schidorf,
    • Workers to chop/road forest tiles
    IBT:
    • Kyoto riots -- 3 citizens reassigned as Scientists, set to build Settler (30T)
    • T'heim: Uni --> Panzer (2T)
    • London: Settler --> Settler (30T)
    • Königsberg builds Internet! --> MecInf (2T)
    • Catan: MecInf --> MecInf (2T)
    • W'haven: OffPlat --> Destroyer (3T)
    • Walstadt: CommDock --> OffPlat (24T, after I gave it some shield tiles back)
    • B'bucht: Panzer --> Panzer (2T)
    • B'burg: MecInf --> MecInf (3T) Pollution appears!
    • Leipzig: Market --> Lib (8T)
    • Pulverstadt: Settler --> Settler (10T)
    • Palace expansion!
    T286, 1480 AD (T4)
    • Cruiser sinks (Mongol?) Privateer near Hyangsan
    • Sci% --> 90% (Ecology in 1T, +253 GPT)
    • Game saved
    IBT:
    • Ecology --> SpaceFlight (5T @100% Sci, +160GPT)
    • Bergen: PolStn --> MecInf (3T)
    • Tokyo: Worker --> Settler (30T)
    • Pusan: Worker --> Settler (10T)
    • Kagoshima: Settler --> Settler (10T)
    • Nagoya: resistance ends, city riots. Clowns leave food deficit, so production switched to Settler -- will rush it next turn
    • Potsdam: Factory --> Wealth
    • Karachi builds MagsVoyage. Didn't want it anyway...
      [*]Kolhapur builds UniSuff. Damn, there goes a prebuild... Lucky we've got SolPlants now...
    T287, 1485 AD (T5)
    • Kagoshima's Settler sent south towards the Gem-Mountain. Once that Lux is inside our borders, it'll be our 8th -- that should be good for a few WLTKDs...
    • Sud- and Sudwestgebirgskamm founded
    • Hey -- just noticed that SpaceFlight is now predicted in 4T instead of 5T (and with 12 beakers overrun, according to CivAssist)! :cool:
    • But... I have to reassign citizens in Stuttgart and Reading to avoid starvation, and that puts us back to 5T. So I put Englandberg into negative FPT, and that brings us back to 4T -- so 5-10 more farms should put us comfortably into 4T-research, even without adding Slaves (and the next couple of techs -- SynFib, NukePower, Lasers, Satellites -- are cheaper than SpaceFlight anyway)...
    • Switch Goldstadt from USuff to prebuilding Palace (in 15T) -- can be converted to Ext. Casing as soon as we get SynFib(next target after SpaceFlight) in ~8T -- will waste some shields, but who cares?
    IBT:
    • Kyoto: Settler --> Settler (30T)
    • T'heim: Panzer --> Panzer (2T)
    • K'berg: MecInf --> MecInf (2T)
    • Newcastle: Settler --> Worker (10T)
    • Catan: MecInf --> MecInf (2T)
    • Brighton: Settler --> Wealth
    • Neu-Osloh: MilAcad --> Army (6T)
    • B'bucht: Panzer --> Battleship (4T)
    • Richmond: Settler --> Wealth
    • Fischberg: OffPlat --> Settler (1T)
    • Manchester, Choybalsan, Karasjok, Frankfurt: Worker --> Wealth
    • Bremen Settler-abandoned (to make room for more Pop1 farms)
    T288, 1490 AD (T6)
    • Core city-citizens fully employed to maximise commerce --> science conversion -- wastes food, but who cares?
    • Nagoya is starving so rush a Settler
    • Rush another in Kagoshima, and half a dozen more in 2-bit ex-Viking cities
    • Now have a whole pile of Workers standing idle -- will road some Hills and Tundra, then start joining them to farms
    • Rostdorf, Flachdorf, Bergmeer, Mittelgebirgskamm, Gutessendorf, Eismeer founded
    • Game saved
    IBT:
    • Whole bunch of Setters completed -- most of these cities now at Pop1, turned over to Wealth/growth
    T289, 1495 AD (T7)
    • Whole bunch of farms built, and set to Scientists/growth (depending on tiles), building Wealth (now at 170+GPT, SpaceFlight in 2T)
    IBT:
    • Whole bunch of Settlers built, and more MecInfs
    • Stockholm: Factory --> PolStn (6T) (CommDock queued to start afterwards)
    • Cultural expansion across our entire continent from the free ResLabs (we now control 4% more of this world's tiles than we did last turn -- but still only 52% of total, so no danger of DomVic)
    T290, 1500 AD (T8)
    • Hang on -- why the hell is Space still due in 2T?! Oh you utter b**t**d -- all the culturally expanded towns reset their citizen assignments! :mad: Now I have to MM half the farms again! :cry:
    • OK done -- Space back down to 1T (but can't drop the Sci% without also applying negative FPT) Bedtime for Bonzo :sleep:
    IBT:
    • SpaceFlight --> SynFib (4T)
    • O'stadt's production already calculated, and has 600s so can build Engines in 1 more turn, so use 'Big Picture' and F1 to switch München prebuild to Apollo.
    • Choybalsan flips back to the Mongols. Naja, wasn't doing anything for us anyway (3 lousy BPT)...
    • Aarhus: Settler --> Destroyer
    • München Apollo --> Wealth (for now)
    T291, 1505 AD (T9)
    • O'stadt switched to Engines (1T)
    • Hamburg: OffPlat switched to Docking Bay (1T)
    • Neu-Osloh: Army switched to Cockpit (2T?? Bugger -- 2 shields short!)
    • Leave Goldstadt prebuilding Manhattan for ExtCasing (now at 470s and making 56SPT, so will waste >50s on switching in 4T time -- but never mind)
    • Found some more farms
    • Unload some Workers on Bad-Insel and set them to railing more irrigated tiles
    • Chop, rail+irrigate 2 tiles 'near' Richmond and plant+chop(+rail)+irrigate 2 tiles near Knotenheim and 1 near Dortmund for quick Settler-builds
    IBT:
    • O'stadt: Engines --> Wealth
    • Hamburg: DockingBay --> OffPlat
    • Richmond Settler-abandoned
    • Westernburgberg: Uni --> CommDock
    T292, 1510 AD (T10)
    • Schiessberg and Reiterstadt founded

    Handover notes:

    Science:
    • Synthetic Fibres will be researched in 3T -- Goldstadt's ManProj prebuild will have nearly 700s by then, so should be used for ExtCasing, Bergen's SolPlant prebuild (or Stockholm's PolStn) can be converted to Storage/Supply.
    • I suggest researching Satellites then NukePower then Superconductor (order of cost according to CivAssist). I'm pretty sure I already queued these.
    • Apart from Superconductor (FuelCells and LifeSupport, 160s and 320s), you will only need 1 ship-part prebuild per remaining tech (320s for Satellites --> Thrusters), but choose your city carefully: the techs should all now arrive in 4T, but all our core cities need only 2-3T for a 160s part, or 4-6T for a 320s part. Don't build a SolPlant by accident like I nearly just did in B'bucht! (Just switched it to Battleship)
    Towns:
    • A lot of the farms are (still) building Settlers, because there are still plenty of farm-holes to fill.
    • There are Workers standing idle (fortified) near Neunstadt, which can be used to chop forests into a Settler being built in one of those cities. Or you can add them to any farm that hasn't hit its Pop-limit yet...
    • Probably already known to everyone else, but I just discovered that forest-chop shields will not go to the nearest city if it's building Wealth (if I had only known that, I would have chopped several tiles much earlier than I did)
    • I strongly recommend Settler- or Worker-disbanding Birke, Alesund, Nordenberg, Achtstadt, Knotenheim, Elastischestadt, Gloucester, Bristol, and maybe Neu-Königsberg, and moving the Settler 1 tile onto adjacent Plains/ Hills/ Tundra, to make more room for ICS'd farms. For example, if Nordenberg is removed and Alesund 'moved' 1 SW, 4 Tundra-farm (Pop1) sites will become available, N/S/E/W of Nordenberg's current position
    Trade/Diplomacy:
    • Technically we are still at war with the Japs, but I have had no contact with them since taking their last mainland city (Nagasaki), 8T ago. Since they DoW'd us, we have WH, and I see no reason why we shouldn't keep it going with a phony war for as long as we can. They have one city left (Matsuyama), and it's nowhere near the ones we captured, and we now have access to 8 Luxes, 5 of which we control, so everyone's happy and flip-risk is relatively low.
    • I made several Tech-for-GPT+Lux deals with the Indians at the start of my turnset: these will run for another 11-12T, so long as Gandhi does nothing irrational...
    • Haven't had a peep out of the Mongols at all -- our PT with them is now out of its 20T, and so are some other deals. I haven't bothered renegotiating them because we are making so much cash (from the Indians, and our farms) that I didn't need to.
    • I airlifted some Panzer and MecInfs over to ex-Japan, and the Panzer are fortifed near the Mongol borders, and mainly in Hills/Mountains, just in case Temujin gets any silly ideas... (Our Armies are fortified just outside the ex-Japanese cities)
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Panzers? :crazyeye:
     
  6. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Oops :blush: What can I say, it was after 1am... Sorry Lanzelot. Edited.
     
  7. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    What's wrong with airlifting Panzers?
     
  8. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Nothing (at least, I hope not!). Elph was reminding me that I should have used 'Panzer' as the plural, before Lanzelot starts twitching again. I was apologising for my bad German, not for what I actually did during my turnset (I'll do that later, after Lanzelot complains because our entire core is building Wealth... ;) )

    EDIT (again -- last one got lost):
    Just realised (/remembered Lanzelot saying?) that building Cavs(?) in our core for transfer to / disbanding in 1-shield towns for 20s on a Settler-build would have been (and possibly still could be) a much better use of shields than converting them into Wealth for cash-rushing. OTOH, we are now down to comfortable 4T-research, so more farms aren't going to make a huge difference at this late stage, unless we suddenly lose our foreign income (only an Indian DoW will do this -- but we still have more obsolete techs we could sell to Gandhi, so I don't think he will...). So my building Wealth in the core for the last couple of turns of my set isn't the complete disaster that it might have been at, say, DemiGod+... (but a mental note has been taken, for future reference).
     
  9. Mike Hussey

    Mike Hussey Cricketer

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    Hello strangers,

    I would like to ask a question if I may?

    I'm interested to see that you guys are using the maximum science research combined with building science buildings. I wonder why you guys favour this over the 0% research strategy where once you have that many cities, you can set all scientists and still be able to achieve 4 turn research. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each approach?

    Also I've never understood the Spaceship victory type, is just for a bit of variation over the conquest/domination type?
     
  10. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    I don't think we could do 4-turn research with just scientists... We don't have THAT many cities! :crazyeye:
     
  11. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Speaking for myself, and taking the last question first -- the Spaceship Vic has always been the one I go for in my games (although admittedly not nearly as systematically and singlemindedly as we pursued it here)! Partly this is a holdover from playing CivDOS for years, where Spaceship, 100% Conquest, or 'Histo' were the only possible VCs. I usually played on the Earth-Map, and I always found the Conquest VC to be self-limiting, or at least 'unfun', due to the various limitations/bugs. So I usually aimed for Space instead.

    But this preference is also personal: I've always loved science fiction, and always preferred building to destroying. (I 'graduated' to playing CivDOS after several years of playing SimCity2000 -- having also played the original SimCity for several years after it first came out). And I have always considered the Space VC to be the 'canonical good ending' for any Civ game -- it is after all the only one for which the devs bothered to put together victory-movies (in the versions I've played, anyway).

    So for me, aiming for Space has never been just for a bit of variety, it's the be-all and end-all -- anything else is a let-down.

    Regarding the 0% research gambit:

    As I understand it, that's generally for really high-level play, where the AI's research/production advantages mean you have little to no hope of researching anything first (or building any Wonders); and/or all-out war games (e.g. on Pangaea-Maps), where no-one will sell you anything because everyone hates you. In those situations, you keep up with the AI by banking your gold, building lots of mil-units, and then buying, brokering and/or extorting techs ('pointy-stick research' :lol: ) instead of researching yourself. And you aim to win your games as early as possible, to minimise the risk of runaway AIs, which usually means going for Dom/Conquest.

    But to win a Space-Vic, you have to be committed to playing a long game, because you will need to go nearly all the way through the entire tech-tree -- which means that the AICivs will be going a long way through it too. So you can't afford to be a tech-follower: you must aim to become the tech-leader, and as early as possible, or you are going to lose (whether by Conquest, Domination, a UN-vote, or -- horrors -- an AICiv launching their Ship first). And you simply cannot become a tech-leader by farming alone, because the number of farms that you'd need, and the size that you'd need them, would almost certainly be enough to trigger a Domination VC before you even got to the Modern-Age.

    Case in point: This game, an Emperor-level Space-race on a 70% Standard-size Continents map.

    Modern-Age techs are costing us between 7500 and 9500 beakers as the tech-leader (first to research). Averaging that at 8500 beakers, to make that in 4T, we'd need 8500/(3*4) =~ 708 Scientists, i.e. 236 Pop5-6 farms, each supporting a minimum 3 Scientists (not widely possible until after Steam/rails -- until then, only 2 Scientists sustainable per Pop5-6 town). Just in terms of the Settlers needed (30s, 20f), building those farms would cost the equivalent of 236*30 = 7080s and 236*20 = 4720f at minimum.

    And if all those farms are ICS'd, that's 236*4 = 944 land-tiles' worth of farms at minimum. On a Standard-size 70%-water map, you have around 5500*0.7 = 1650 land tiles, some of which (Tundra, Desert) will only support Pop1 farms, and some of which (Mountains, Volcanoes) you won't be able to build on at all; 944 / 1650 = 57% of the land tiles already, leaving only 145 spare land-tiles for your core (i.e. ~12 cities working 12 tiles each) before you'd hit the 66%-territory mark (1089 / 1650 land-tiles). (With >1200 Pop-points just in your farms, you'd probably be well over the 66%-Pop mark already).

    Sure, you could disable the Dom-VC, but I think that's kind of cheating, since warfare/expansion is probably what the Civ3 AI does best (it doesn't make long-term plans a-tall). We enabled all the standard single-player VCs in this game. For a Space-without-triggering-Dom VC, you therefore need to maximise your core science output, which means
    • Choosing a Scientific Civ (cheap Libs+Unis, free tech every new era)
    • Researching at 100%Sci as much as possible, along the less-favoured tech-paths (for monopolistic tech-trading and/or Wonder-prebuilding), e.g.
      • Ancient Age: Alphabet --> Republic
      • Middle Age: Monotheism --> Astro
      • Industrial Age: Steam+Med --> Electronics
    • Ignoring all optional techs (except where absolutely essential, e.g. Republic to maximise commerce while still allowing some free military)
    • Building Courthouses to minimise corruption/waste, Libs+Unis to maximise research output, and Markets for happiness
    • Fighting short wars (to minimise war-weariness and riots) with minimal forces (to minimise unit-costs)
    • Trying to build trade/ science/ production-boosting Wonders (e.g. Colossus, CopsObs, ToE, Hoover, SETI, Internet)
    And that's what we did.

    You can read all about it in the turnlogs/discussion, but the long and short is that by leveraging all our advantages, and even with a few seriously bad mistakes in the early turns (the worst probably being the cocked-up Republic-slingshot which became a 'CodeofLaws-slingshot' instead), the game is now effectively won: we can expect to launch our Ship in about 1630AD-ish, with no AICiv even close to being able to stop us. Admittedly, that's not as early a date as Lanzelot would have liked, but it's much earlier than I ever would have thought possible -- before I started playing this SG.

    And this was at Emperor level, so I am now fairly well convinced that winning a Space-Race at DG, with a comparable date, should also be eminently possible, provided that the game is played a little(!) cleaner than we did.
     
  12. Mike Hussey

    Mike Hussey Cricketer

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    I think I should have been clearer with my earlier post. I didn't mean a 0% research gambit. Just normal research and tech trading until the Industrial age, having a sizable empire with a sizable corrupt portion and of course railroads, we could simply build 1 settler with 4 workers to have a size 5 science farm with 2 working citizens and 3 scientists which would generate 3 beakers per tile, grow every 12 turns with an extra scientist and then starve back to size 5. Or you could go with a size 9 city with a cash rushed aqueduct. You may even get more out with an agricultural civ.

    That way you could set research to 0% and still have 4 turn research once steam power comes along. Plus you wouldn't need to build any libraries or universities, aqueducts and only build marketplaces in core cities. Although you'd probably build a few banks and stock exchanges in core cities since going for 100% money.

    I guess some of the barriers to this could be overrun by joining excess native workers to cities, cashing rushing workers and settlers from cities with mainly plains tiles and joining them to cities with grasslands tiles. That way you'd virtually for every grasslands tile you own, you could produce 3 beakers (except for the core of the your empire).

    But I was thinking for this non conquest game though the 100% science strategy might be better as the wealth option in core cities (which would probably usually be producing units?) might balance out the 100% science.
     
  13. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Mike, you usually don't have a big enough empire to pull off that gambit. In this game in particular, it was already the industrial age before the SG tribe owned their starting continent. You can't spend as many coins and shields towards rushing science farms when you still have to build a bunch of cavs!
     
  14. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    The Colossus->Spearman->Colossus thing was probably a bigger mistake than that.
     
  15. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    I respectfully disagree ;)

    That mistake cost us max. 10T of production (if that -- not sure), while K'stadt was still relatively small (Pop 3-4?). (The accumulated Colossus shields were converted almost immediately, and then a Barracks was also built, and there were ~40s back in the Colossus box when I took that save). But we could at least still use that rSpear to patrol between our cities, so it wasn't a complete waste. And yes, we could have built the Colossus earlier, but it did still get built. And not having it only affected the BPT-output from one city for the 'lost 10T', so didn't make a huge difference while K'stadt was still so small: at Pop3-4, 4-5CPT @ 100%Sci => 4-5BPT for 10T = maximum 40-50 beakers (assuming no corruption, or 34-42 beakers with 15% corruption) lost in total.

    IIRC we didn't get Lit/Libs until after we got Republic, which was well after the Colossus was built; and K'stadt didn't turn into a total beaker-monster until we'd switched to Republic, built a Lib (and then later a Uni), grew it to Pop12 with Worker-joins, and most importantly added the CopsObs (plus GA!) effect. We didn't do a lot of that until the middle Mid-Age -- then, yes, the extra 12 CPT from Colossus was very useful for much of the rest of the game!

    But researching Philo before CoL, and then researching Republic by hand, how many beakers did that cost us? I'd have to reload those saves to see exactly what the effects would have been, but I suspect that the delayed gov-switch cost us more beakers than the delayed Colossus, because the effects of Republic apply to all cities, not just one. Consider:
    • CoL would have cost us fewer turns to research than Republic -- OK, not many, but even only 4-5T difference (i.e. allowing a gov-switch 4-5T sooner, assuming that we rolled the same Anarchy-period) would have been significant:
      • We had only a few cities (3 or 4?) while we were researching Philo(+Col) and then Republic, and they were all around Pop3-4 (i.e. 4-5 CPT difference per city between Despot and Republic)
        • Using the lower estimates, the extra 1CPT per tile per city from Republic would have given us 4CPT * 4T * 3 cities = 48 commerce @100% Sci => 48 more beakers (assuming no corruption, 40 beakers assuming 15% corruption)
        • Using the higher estimates, the difference between Despot and Republic would have been 5*5*4 = 100 beakers (85 beakers at 15% corruption)
    • Switching to Republic eliminates the Despot-penalty for food and shields, and reduces corruption in all cities
      • Over 4-5T, the 'lost' 2-3FPT from the Floods around both O'stadt and K'berg = 8-15 food wasted in each city, which could easily have translated to getting another Pop-point 1T earlier -- with the reduced corruption also increasing K'berg's CPT->BPT
    Taken together though, I agree that those were the two worst mistakes in the game. Had they not been made, the compounded effects of the beakers gained, and hence earlier tech-discovery dates and faster research thereafter, might well have translated to us achieving tech-parity, conquering our continent (taking us into the tech-lead), starting to farm, and launching our ship maybe 15-30T earlier than we actually did/will.
     
  16. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    I don't think that 4 turn research with scientists alone is possible on Emperor level. Perhaps on Warlord, where tech prices are much lower, though I'm not sure even about that?!

    Anyway, we are well on track now... :goodjob: All techs done in 4, right? So whose turn is it now? If neither MrRandomGuy nor CommandoBob want to take it, it's me again?!
     
  17. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    I had a quick look at most of the remaining Spaceship tech costs in CAII before I saved and posted: SpaceFlight itself was the most expensive one I remembered seeing, and we got that one in 4T -- just. Ecol was also done in 4T, and SynFib will be, as should NukePower, Superconductor, Satellites and possibly Laser -- so long as nothing bad happens...

    But I was scrolling through most of the game log today (when I should really have been doing something else, but never mind), and one of your comments caught my eye in passing, saying that Robotics was the most expensive tech in the game. So I'm now kind of hoping that we will have farmed enough Scientists by the time we get there that we can do it in 4T as well -- but if not, it shouldn't be more than 5T at most.
    Sounds fine to me -- or we could all just consider the game thoroughly won, and hand out backslaps all round :clap: Unless there's anyone on the team who hasn't yet been rewarded with the Spaceship-victory movie at the end of a game (seeing it on YouTube doesn't count!) ;)
     
  18. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Going 100% money + military means you have to wait for the AICivs to research the techs that you want, and then hope that you will be able to buy/ extort them. On a Pangaea-map where all contacts can be acquired relatively early through overland exploration (yours or theirs), and the AICivs can then all trade freely and quickly (bringing the tech-price down for you, and/or making it more likely that a victim will have the tech you want), that tactic can work well. But on Continents maps, contacting all AICivs takes longer, especially since in C3C the ability to trade communications requires PrintingPress, a late MedAge optional tech (in Vanilla, all it took was Writing, IIRC).

    On a Continents map, to find everyone, you'll need to found at least one coastal city, and build enough boats that you can afford to lose a few finding the shortest sea-lanes to your neighbours (you really don't want to be waiting until they have the tech, Wonders and/or and production-surplus to be able to visit you, do you...?). Overseas exploration is even more problematic on Large+ maps, where the shortest distances between landmasses might still be much further than Curraghs/Galleons can travel safely (because unit M-values don't scale with map-size). So depending on the size and your start-position, you may only have 'immediate' (overland) access to 1 or 2 AICivs in the early game (and if you're 50T in and still haven't met anyone, then you're probably on the smallest landmass, so you'd better start arming yourself for an invasion -- yours or theirs!) -- and while your relationship with your neighbours (if any) may initially be cordial, they will soon turn hostile as the remaining expansion-room is used up (or maybe you'll shoot first, if you have the advantage). So although you will probably be able to do some local tech-trading (or extortion) in the very early part of the game, you will almost certainly need to look overseas for continued opportunities before the mid-MidAge -- and you will have to be preprared to buy those techs, since extorting techs through overseas warfare is a lot trickier (without using sneaky exploits). This is especially true at higher levels where the overseas civs will all be growing and tech-ing faster than you, so will likely have big cities and relatively advanced weaponry by the time you've pacified your own backyard and are ready to start on theirs.

    The upshot of all this is that, if you're trying to play 'catch-up' on a Continents map, you'll end up having (much) less control over your own technological development. And because of the exponential nature of development in Civ, any early tech-gap will generally get wider throughout the game, rather than narrower, increasing the likelihood of suffering a high-tech defeat at a late stage (e.g. Diplo-loss, an AI Spaceship launch, or an invasion of ModArm+MecInf vs. your Cavs+Rifles). So in this SG, we built those Libs+Unis in the late Ancient/early MidAge for boosting our commerce --> BPT long before we owned our continent, in order to be able to take control of our technological development as early as possible. If we hadn't built them, we would probably have been left behind. Also, Currency (Markets) and Banking (Banks) come (much) later in the tech-tree than Lit (Libs) and Education (Unis), respectively (and for a Sci-Civ, Markets and Banks are around twice as expensive to build). We built Markets only in the fully-employed Pop12 core cities, for their Lux/ Happiness-boosting effects, not the Tax-boost.

    By the late IndAge, having already committed to building the science-multipliers and using 80-100%Sci, there was little point then building the more expensive tax-multipliers as well -- we had several... erm... discussions about the NON-necessity of building Banks/ StockExes. Not only would doing so have incurred significant additional shield-costs -- at a time when we wanted those shields for Cavs, Inf, Factories and Wonders -- but moving the slider from high-Sci% to high-Tax% would have turned all our science-multipliers into deadweight: keeping them would cost GPT, but selling them would waste the shields we already invested in building them. Either way we'd end up wasting something.
     
  19. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Ok, got it.

    My action plan is pretty short this time. And I expect not too many objections from my team comrades... ;)

    • Keep everything calm and peaceful (and well protected to avoid unpleasant surprises...)
    • Continue to tech in 4, in the order of ascending price tag.
    • Have a SS part prebuild ready when every tech comes in.

    Can probably play today or tomorrow night.
     
  20. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    She's doing it on purpose, she must be...



    :woohoo:
     

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