Adolf Hitler

[Civrules]

And like I said before, Germany has laws against selling a game where you can play Hitler. That is a lot of potential lost sales.

True. After all, it is almost certain that sometime after release someone will make a mod, so it is pointless for him to be included in an official release...

 

[Belcarius]

Ridiculous.

Hitler was, all in all, a poor leader. Not just because he lost, but he simply was not a "great" German leader.

Also, how many Germans do you think would want to see their nation represented by, of all people, Hitler? Very, very, few.

Having studied German history recently I'm speaking from knowledge here. And many Germans today have admitted that had Hitler not begun WW2, then he would have been considered by them to be the greatest German leader ever. Certainly at the time everyone thought he was that great.

What you say at the end is true, because history and the modern Germans have completley ostracised Hitler (as is evident by banning games featuring him...)

BTW, I have met people originally from China who really bear a serious grudge against Mao. Not to mention the Tibetans, they aren't very fond of him either.

 

[eaglefox]

I think Hitler should be included. Let's face it, nowadays when people talk about Germany, the first person that inevitably comes to mind is Hitler. He is probably the most important character in history. A lot of the characters included in civ have at some point commited mass murders in the name of the empire. Plus, I think a Jew or a Russian playing against Germany might actually enjoy defeating Hitler and his forces.

 

[frankthe butler]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=121805

it was an interesting little thread that touched on hitler only a little. titled Civilization Leaders.
but i'll paste my post from there here.

 

[frankthe butler]

I WOULD LOVE HITLER TO BE IN THE GAME!!!! it would be so Kitsch (or verkitschen in german). Hitler was a profound leader, even if his superstitious military mistakes cost him the world. he did turn germany around and is the most famous german leader. he was also the most ambitious and was able to achieve for a time what no one else other than napoleon had dreamed of: control of western europe and most of central as well, with a raging economy. he's no different from napoleon, G. Kahn (and one might say Alexander) in the brevity of his conquest. For good reason he should be in the game, and also the simple amusment of it: imagine! just imagine Pericles or Alexander fighting Hitler! how awesome!! these are some of the great 'what if' questions of history!
some people might not like it so much, but they need to realize that in history some great leaders have been very bad people. i hope that the demographic the new game is going for would be comprised of mature enough individuals to handle that. anyway they'd get used to it pretty quick.
Think of the funny things the game would say: "Hitler wants you to convert to Buddism" and such. the hilarity
I'm no fan of Hitler, but i would be very disappointed if he were not one of the german leaders. it would be a cop-out.

 

[Himalia]

Its almost as if he could be included as the second leader head. Im sure many Germans (and just about everyone for that matter of fact) would love to crush him. However he wont be in the game for political reason and it may also be illegal in Germany dut to varioues laws revolving around the Nazis. I doubt they will make diferent versions of the game for different countries and he will arive soon as a mod i would imagine.

 

[farting bob]

I dont think anyone agrees with that he did, but it is true he had a massive effect on germany (before and during the war) and if it wasnt for the holucaust i think he would be included in civ (lets face it, in terms on numbers, stalin was worse, but thats another debate).
If all countries get 2 leaders, i think that hitler and bismarck should be there. Howeevr, because of bad press civ4 would get from including hitler may effect sales, i dont think they would risk it.

 

[frankthe butler]

and no, even if it weren't illegal in germany, you wouldn't be able to sell the game in that country as long as hitler was in it. that's why i propose Firaxis make two versions: one hitler, one without. companies in the biz do this type of thing all the time. Pearl Harbor was a different movie when exported to japan. there's only a need for the hitler version to be witheld from germany since i'm sure many other europeans (especially the french) would enjoy crushing hitler just too much.
so it's doable and we should expect nothing less. the question of how germans might react is thus mute; they won't.
as for others, i cannot conceive that a person could be resentful at the firaxis for more than a moment without realizing that they[firaxis] have shown maturity in being beyond a waning taboo, and beyond the stoop to appease the few who hold on to it.
also, keep in mind that anyone who holds onto it is going to be old, and the demogaphic is going to be very young.

 

[d4rKi]

First things first: Please - no Hitler in Civ4.

I don't think it's illegal in Germany to include Hitler in a game. Though it can be illegal if the game exalts fasicm and shows fascistic symbols (my English sux, btw ). Maybe I'll check that out more exactly later...

These discussions here are really interesting, but I think that just the fact that everyone has to argue about that topic shows that Hitler shouldn't be included. In my eyes there is no perfect leader for Germany - the Federal Republic is just about 50 years old and there were only a few short periods of a united Germany in history. Germany in the middle-ages was more like the United States without the United in it ... and it's still a bit like that today. But there are many leaders better suited than Hitler. Choose whoever you want ... Barbarossa, Bismarck, Otto I ... I don't care. Just no Hitler - pleaaaaaaaseee

cya =)

 

[noni]

somehow sad to read this thread. to the guy who opened it please watch some documentries about what he really did. then i am sure u would not open such a thread. i live in germany and still some people here follow him and that is the black side of germany. in some states it is just horrible.

but i am sure the game develpors would never put hitler in the game, cus that would be damaging thier own image.

to all people here who would like to have him in the game look at some documentries and if u still want him in the game then it is not understandable

 

[Elrohir]

somehow sad to read this thread. to the guy who opened it please watch some documentries about what he really did. then i am sure u would not open such a thread. i live in germany and still some people here follow him and that is the black side of germany. in some states it is just horrible.

but i am sure the game develpors would never put hitler in the game, cus that would be damaging thier own image.

to all people here who would like to have him in the game look at some documentries and if u still want him in the game then it is not understandable

No one is debating what Hitler did, or whether or not he was an evil man. In fact, that's the appeal. He's the perfect enemy: He's crazy, racist, hard to beat and ruthless. That's why the Nazi's are so common as enemies in American games: We love fighting them.

I don't think it's illegal in Germany to include Hitler in a game. Though it can be illegal if the game exalts fasicm and shows fascistic symbols (my English sux, btw ). Maybe I'll check that out more exactly later...

You're English is fine. It would be simply "fascist symbols" though.

 

[noni]

but still there is no really need in having him in the game too.

it is kinda praising if he would be in the game and there u can tell me what u want.

 

[Janos]

somehow sad to read this thread. to the guy who opened it please watch some documentries about what he really did. then i am sure u would not open such a thread. i live in germany and still some people here follow him and that is the black side of germany. in some states it is just horrible.

but i am sure the game develpors would never put hitler in the game, cus that would be damaging thier own image.

to all people here who would like to have him in the game look at some documentries and if u still want him in the game then it is not understandable

Read some books and watch some documentories on Mao. He's in the game.

 

[Belcarius]

Read some books and watch some documentories on Mao. He's in the game.

My point exactly. It's just that they can get away with it because most of the western world is blissfully unaware of the nature of his deeds.

 

[Sickman]

I WOULD LOVE HITLER TO BE IN THE GAME!!!! it would be so Kitsch (or verkitschen in german). Hitler was a profound leader, even if his superstitious military mistakes cost him the world. he did turn germany around and is the most famous german leader. he was also the most ambitious and was able to achieve for a time what no one else other than napoleon had dreamed of: control of western europe and most of central as well, with a raging economy. he's no different from napoleon, G. Kahn (and one might say Alexander) in the brevity of his conquest. For good reason he should be in the game, and also the simple amusment of it: imagine! just imagine Pericles or Alexander fighting Hitler! how awesome!! these are some of the great 'what if' questions of history!
Think of the funny things the game would say: "Hitler wants you to convert to Buddism" and such. the hilarity

Frank, are you joking?

If this game would be about joking around why not put also Bush Junior in?
"Your foreign advisor informs you that great leader of the americans, Bush Junior, has started to build United Nations".
"Our words are backed up by WMD"
"If you do not convert to Islam, we will destroy you!"

Now that I think of it, Bush is must have for the game.
He is also currently very famous leader for US.

What comes to Hitler only thing great about him was his great zeal and rhetoric skills. He was ruthless in his politics and did have great circle of able people around to help him.
Reason why I don't support him as being great leader is that he started completely unneeded genocide and did huge damage to the German military operations in the Eastern Front.
It's clear he did have some great plan to unite the Europe for some strange super-race nation and failed miserably. Tells something about his super-race abilities...don't you think?

So above all he was poor leader. Nothing but fanatic with big mouth and dirty thoughts coming out of his otherwise empty head.
He just lead his own country and people to great destruction.

I would consider myself extremely disappointed if I was German to have leader like him to present the best what that civilization has to offer when it comes to leaders.

 

[Janos]

Actually, Sickman, what lost Hitler the war on the Eastern Front was his decision not to carry on to Moscow. He let his prejudices and hates get in the way of tactics and decision-making, and instead turned downwards while on the road to Moscow.

With Russia in his power Hitler would've probably achieved his goal, if not for that military mistake. He was so close, but in the end his prejudices caught up with him.

He was an astounding politician, and it's amazing how a homeless Austrian bum became one of the most feared and hated world leaders of all time. He was very aggressive, and very prejudiced, and yes he was insane. These are all traits which would make an interesting leader in Civ IV, in my opinion.

Hitler was a monster, but so was Mao, and so was Stalin, and damn it if Napoleon didn't kill his fair share of people. I just think Hitler is too important to leave out. I for one would find it intimidating and exciting to see that animated portrait of Hitler come up when i engage diplomatic relations with the Germans in-game, and to see how those cold, frightening eyes react to the treaties/demands i put to the Germans in-game.

However, i do also understand the reasons Firaxis have for not putting him in. What we have is fine, i think.

 

[Sickman]

Actually, Sickman, what lost Hitler the war on the Eastern Front was his decision not to carry on to Moscow. He let his prejudices and hates get in the way of tactics and decision-making, and instead turned downwards while on the road to Moscow.

That was partly what I meant, also he never understood that retreating to other positions would be better than leave troops in that time to their current positions to defend to it to the end.

He was an astounding politician, and it's amazing how a homeless Austrian bum became one of the most feared and hated world leaders of all time. He was very aggressive, and very prejudiced, and yes he was insane. These are all traits which would make an interesting leader in Civ IV, in my opinion.

Certainly.
Have you read about his troublesome childhood and younghood?
It's not any miracle he went insane.

Hitler was a monster, but so was Mao, and so was Stalin, and damn it if Napoleon didn't kill his fair share of people. I just think Hitler is too important to leave out. I for one would find it intimidating and exciting to see that animated portrait of Hitler come up when i engage diplomatic relations with the Germans in-game, and to see how those cold, frightening eyes react to the treaties/demands i put to the Germans in-game.

I do agree that with those other leaders as well.
I'm not against that he would be in but compared to those others I would say that Hitler has most reasons to be left out and there are also other german leaders that might deserve that place too.
Of course as famous as he is it would be rather exciting to see him in the game. He probably causes more reaction out of player than any other leader when facing him in the diplomatic screen.

However, i do also understand the reasons Firaxis have for not putting him in. What we have is fine, i think.

Yes there are many different reasons why not to include Hitler.
Maybe we see him modded in.
Then we can all be happy

 

[DonStamos]

On the contrary, the decision that cost Hitler the war in the East was the decision to go for Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad.

Hitler figured by capturing the three most prestigious cities in the Soviet Union, the Communists would realize the cause is lost and surrender to the Wehrmacht.

Of course, not one of the three cities fell: Leningrad was besieged for 900 days, the Germans reached the outskirts of Moscow, and they were utterly defeated among the ruins of Stalingrad.

The original Nazi war aim in the East were to cut off the Soviet oil fields around the city of Baku, which in turn would give the growing German war machine the petroleum it needed to continue the war (his only previous source being Ploesti in Romania). It was his decision to switch the war aims away from the strategic oil fields and towards what he figured would be a devastating defeat to Soviet morale.

But to keep this related to topic, and thus open:

While there are better leaders from other periods in Germany's history, if Mao can be in the game, so can Hitler. It is pretty sad that the West doesn't pay as much attention to leaders in the East, but fact is, almost every leader currently in Civilization committed some form of mass murder and/or genocide at some point or another. However, seeing as this topic already has so many replies for/against and Firaxis is probably gauging possible public opinion of a Hitler inclusion, he probably won't make it. Oh well, I'll mod him in.

 

[Belcarius]

Here's what I find ironic. Instead of Hitler, let's say they put in Gustav Stresseman, the chancellor in the early twenties. Stresseman made major economic recovery, staved off revolution from both wings, and was awarded the noble peace prize for agreeing to respect the western German borders (with no mention of the East...). Almost exactly the same as Hitler except he didn't execute 12 million people.

 

[noni]

Read some books and watch some documentories on Mao. He's in the game.

so what tells us that if that is in then hitler should also be ok? i am not that good in overall history, but i live in germany so i know about that part. And still to live here as a foreigner is sometimes and in some parts of germany hard, cus of the ****ing nazis people who still follow that cancer mind of hitler. i am half-india and i know from what i am talking.

no hard feelings though but when u live in a country where u still have to deal with the mind of a "hitler" then u see no fun in having him praised in a game.