Adolf Hitler

[K.F. Huszár]

Hey everyone

I think it is no problem if Hitler was included or not. Modders are going to make in minutes after the release.
Otherwise, there are enough emblematic leaders for Germany (Otto I, Friedrich Barbarossa, Friedrich the Great, Bismarck, Streseman etc.).
THE QUESTION IS:
If Hitler was included, should it be a scandal or not?
If it was a scandal, should it help the sale of the game or not?

In my point of view, it is better to leave out Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kenyatta, Mobutu, Sharon etc. To much people to hurt, to much wounds to make.
BUT these forums sohuld be tolerant so much to provide space for mod's including Hitler or Mao or so.
If there were a Second World War mod, Hitler MUST be included there!!!!!!!!

About the strategic stuff.
Hitler was not the worst strategist in world. But it was not a question of Moscow or so. He lost his war before beginning it. Because he was fighting aginst entire etnic groups. He was not fighting against Soviet-Union, he was fighting against Russian people without any political solution offered for the local inhabitants who were greeting Nazi troops as liberators at very first moment (especially Ukrainian and Baltic nations).
And more, Hitler's Third Reich was not set up for a long-term war, just for blitzkrieg. They tried to produce butter and battery at the same time. They began the total mobilization of economy for war after 1943. And it was too late.

 

[Vilati Timmadar]

Hitler - NO!

Why?

1.) He was austrian, not german.
2.) He's the worst mass murderer in history and the only thing he deserves is hellfire for eternity.
3.) Hitler is NOT characteristic for Germany. We've a lot of better leaders for this: Friedrich II., Otto von Bismarck, Konrad Adenauer, Heinrich II.
4.) Hitler as leader for Germany would be as offensive to Germans as "Charles Manson leading the United States". Get my point?

5.) All the "bonuses" Hitler was "responsible" for (V2, Panzer etc.): Hitler just led a very educated and scientific nation. He didn't invent panzers, V2, jet aircrafts, infrared-guidance systems or radar. He opposed many of this, because he was stupid and didn't understand it.
When he took over the command of the Army, Germany began to loose massively (december 1941).

Hitler didn't do anything - others did. Without him, the 20th century would've been the German one. May I remind everyone here, that things like the first real jet aircraft, rocket, radar, infrared guidance, computer were of German origin? Until the 70s, German engineers were building the rockets in the US and the USSR. The engines of the Tu-95 were built by Germans. The F-86 and the MiG-15 are offspring of the German P1101...

Hitler didn't achieve anything. When he persecuted the Jews, he destroyed a huge part of the German people and he drove a lot of scientists, engineers and artists out of the country. And what was left here was captured after WW2.

Because of Hitler, Germany is lost the scientific lead in the world, military power and political influence - massively. Until 1990, foreign powers led our destiny.


So...why should Hitler be a "great leader of Germany"?? What did he do for us???


I request that people should read about Hitler before they start writing here. Fighting Hitler might seem cool and according to Hollywood, German Nazis are still good for a nice action-adventure. But NOT in Civ!

 

[d4rKi]

There is a big difference between historical scenarios and standart games, at least in my eyes. Germany would probably be called 3rd Reich or something like that - and the leader of the 3rd Reich was Hitler, no matter if we like him or not, so that's fine with me.

But Firaxis made the mistake to include Mao und Stalin and I don't think that they should make something like that again by including Hitler as well. It's kind of sad that every time you say "Germany" the other one responds "World War II". True, no one should every forget what happened there but it's not like it's my fault that Hitler did all what he did - and still you have to face all this prejudices as German (some of them might be kind of true in some way in some parts of Germany ).

Maybe Hitler should be included as computer-only character and if you start a random game you can choose Germany as "evil" which would make Hitler the German leader - same with Mao and Stalin.

Anyway, that's just my point of view atm - maybe it's complete nonsense or something ...it's really hot in here

Btw...good that global warming didn't weaken the Russian winters at that time. Who knows what would have happened (hopefully Hitler would have lost the war anyway...the faster the better)

 

[Himalia]

I agree he shouldnt be in the game. He is an ideal mod or prehaps for certain scenarios he would make sence but thats it. As for being fun kicking Hitler about the map, sounds great however Germany become victims in this and that seems a little unfair on them. one thing we must remember tho was at the time many in Germany did embrace Hitler but i prefer to call those people Nazis rather than Nazi Germans or jus tsimply Germans. Afterall what race they are is not so important here its the beliefs they have.

I agree that Adolf Hitler is not characteristic of the German people but he is without a doubt one of the most influential people in German history. Regardless of if he was a good leader or not, the one thing he did do well (unfortunatly) was convince his own country. He was good at playing to the crowd.

 

[Janos]

so what tells us that if that is in then hitler should also be ok? i am not that good in overall history, but i live in germany so i know about that part. And still to live here as a foreigner is sometimes and in some parts of germany hard, cus of the ****ing nazis people who still follow that cancer mind of hitler. i am half-india and i know from what i am talking.

no hard feelings though but when u live in a country where u still have to deal with the mind of a "hitler" then u see no fun in having him praised in a game.

He's not being praised in a game! Where did anyone say, "Hitler was the man, heil Hitler!", or "Hitler rules" here? Simply the fact that just talking about him gets a huge reaction from people is enough to put him in the game i think. People would get scared/intimidated/angry/curious/whatever when they saw that portrait, and this would add hugely to immersion in-game. And i'm all for more immersion in the game.

In the end Nazism is just a political ideal, nothing more. Sure it's an evil political ideal - but that's about it.

 

[Superkrest]

it really depends...i think that hitler..may not be the best leader..but technicly stalin killed alot more people. i have a funny feeling though that he has a better chance then hitler in the game..becuase ole uncle joe was on our side..his crimes went laregly un noticed...unlike his conterpart hitler..who was exposed to the world. i think the other leaders proposed are better ideas then hitler..just to avoid any potential headache.

 

[noni]

janos where are u from if i may ask? and how old are u?

 

[jkp1187]

I do agree that if bloodthirsty tyrants such as Genghis Khan, Mao, Shaka Zulu, et al, are included in the game, clearly there's no reason why Hitler couldn't be included, other than the obvious reasons concerning popular outcry and negative impact on sales.

Want a wildcard, though? I nominate Eric Ludendorff as German leader! He was, effectively, running Germany toward the end of The Great War, and -- Hitler military enthusiasts take note! -- Germany came a lot closer to winning the First War than they did the Second.... Hells, it was over, pal, on the Eastern front in '17, and but for the Yanks, it would've been all over for France and the UK in '18....

 

[Himalia]

Its never as simple as that. As soon as you take one factor out of a war and say they would of won if such and such didt happen. It would of been a different sceanrio that would of changed so many over things that could just of easily resulted in the same ending anyway. The Uks biggest advantage was the English Channel and Germany was already alittle overstretched.

 

[brinko]

somehow sad to read this thread. to the guy who opened it please watch some documentries about what he really did. then i am sure u would not open such a thread. i live in germany and still some people here follow him and that is the black side of germany. in some states it is just horrible.

I have Watched many Documentries and movies on WW2 and on Hitler...
I am very aware of what he did.
-Der Untergang
-Shindlers List
-Jacob the Liar
-Conspiracy
-Third Riech in Color (1 and 2)
-the pianist
and many manymore

the latest one ive seen was on the weekend, was Come and See, a russian film about the nazis. It was a very powerful movie.
After watching it, i was onced again reminded of the horrors that these barbarians had done. It made me feel upset that i ever even suggested the notion of including Hitler in the Game.

I am sorry to those whom I Have offended, i am actually ashamed, and wished that it was not my name who beared the title of this thread.

 

[DonStamos]

Conspiracy.... widely considered among all my history teachers to be THE movie to watch about the Final Solution.

 

[frankthe butler]

i'm rather insensitive to people with taboo notions. i look at history as it happens as a historian looks at something that happened 300 years ago. in 300 years it's going to be rather silly that you couldn't put hitler in a videogame as a figurehead. even this thread is going to seem silly.
And even though i border on sociopathically insensitive to people who cultivate their emotional scars, there is something that concerns me about putting hitler in the game--. Germans don't want to be associated with hitler and are desperate for the rest of the world to stop doing it. for most germans (west germans) it's unfair for people around the world to keep linking hilter with them. making hitler a figurehead would certainly do that. So if there was a way, in the history box of the nation and leader to say that Most germans desperately want to stop being associated with hitler, then i think that that would be sufficient. after all, of all the histories, hitler's is going to be clicked on the most. reading this would give the player the understanding that should solve the association problem. if it doesn't then that player would be an idiot, and we don't care about that class of people do we.

 

[brinko]

Maybe to please the germans, Hitler can have his own race...The Aryans..

2 different Tribes, The Germans And the Aryans

Bismarck king of one, Hitler the other?

 

[FieldMarshall]

OK, just to clear up the historcal part of why Hitler got screwed was the invasion of Russia. Dumb <Deleted> thing to do. What he consistantly did was ignore the advice of his generals and not allow them any freedom of action. Also, he regurally changed the objectives thoughout the course of the campaign.

OK, now for the really detailed stuff.
Hitler attacked Russia with 3 army groups (North, Center, and South) and 3 panzerarmy's (the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd -- the order these are listed in relates to which army group they supported). Army Group North was to capture Leningrad, and swing down and support an attack on Moscow. Army Group Center was to capture Kiev, Minsk, Smolensk, and then drive onto Moscow. Army Group South was to make a beeline to the Caucuses and take the oil fields, and maybe take Stalingrag as a bonus. However, when Army Group North, which was at the gates of Leningrad after only 30 days of fighting, approached the city, Hitler ordered the 1st Panzerarmee to attack Moscow on its own, and leave Army Group North to take the city on it's own. Army Group Center made it to Moscow, but Zuhkov's winter offensive drove it and the 1st and 2nd Panzerarmies back about 200 miles. Army Group South only made it as far as Sevastapol before a Russian counter-atack stopped the offensive. Now, Hitler's REALLY BIG <Deleted>-up was that he didn't provide winter clothing for his soldiers, so many of them froze in the cruel Russian winter.

In the 1942 campaign, the year of decision, so to speak, Army Group North was left to take Leningrad, while all 3 panzerarmies were redirected to an offensive in the Caususes to take Mykop, Tbilsti, and Baku -- the major oil fields. Army Group Center was to try and take Moscow, but this was an unaccomplishable task, and it resulted in a holding action to keep as many Russian units as possible from reinforcing the southern front. Meanwhile, Army Group South had made good headway and was in the midst of crossing the Caussus Mountains when Hitler ordered a new attack on Stalingrad, using a panzerarmy and the 6th Army, under [later Field Marshall] Paulus. The attack on the city went well, until the several Russian armies managed to smash through the Romanian, Hungarian, and Italien armies (Italy had a corps) guarding the flanks. These armies in turn surrounded the 6th Army, and eventually pounded it into surrender. Of its original 250,000 soldiers, 90,000 were captured, and of that only about 5,000 returned home after the war, not including Palaus.

From there the German army fell into a retreat, that ended in Berlin.

OK, hoped that cleared everything up.

One of the suggested ideas about Hitlers in game atributs was "Panzers, of course." This is not a characteristic that Hitler showed. He had nothing to do with the evolution fo the German tank arm. The tanks were the result of the efforts of Heinz Guordian and Erik von Manstein. Hitler was an infantry man all his life. He favored a concept call strategic battle, where you destroy enemy forces with superior infantry forces. So Hitler would have a characterstic that allows for better infantry (like the Waffen SS or the Wehrmacht).

Am I for Hitler? As an in game leader, yes, I am. Quite frankly, he gave the world a little kick in the <Deleted> and launched into the age of modern warfare. But other tha that, I hate him.

Moderator Action: Language deleted. Warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Colonel]

May I remind everyone here, that things like the first real jet aircraft, rocket, radar, infrared guidance, computer were of German origin? Until the 70s, German engineers were building the rockets in the US and the USSR. The engines of the Tu-95 were built by Germans. The F-86 and the MiG-15 are offspring of the German P1101...

Just to correct a few things. The first real jet aircraft to actually take flight and not on just on paper was a British one in 1939, the frist test flights of the ME262 were in 41-42.-Also I am not counting test planes which consist of basically a rocket straped to the back but actual flying jets with capable weapons.

Radar once again was a British devolpment. They put up massive radar towers along the coast during the Battle of Britian.

As for Computers, the first and most of the major devolpers of Computer later on were American, the first one was a massive calculator used to help decript German messages in the second World War-the computer was in England.

Also what made the Mig-15 work as well as it did is not the German scientists who designed the aerdynamics but the Rolls Roysce Engine which was Sold to the Russians after the war.

As for the American side, yes most of those planes were devolped by German Scientists who surrendered to us after WW2

 

[Colonel]

it really depends...i think that hitler..may not be the best leader..but technicly stalin killed alot more people.

Actually this is a common misconception, Hitler actually killed more, however when we refer to the Final Soultion we immediatly the 6 million Jews who died, you forget the 5 million others, Czepies, Political dissentants, etc who were exterminated. Both the 6 million and the 5 million make 11 million whereas Stalin killed 10 million, but he did not signal out any one group, besides the Church.

 

[Himalia]

Jus ta thought the game will come with i think 26 leader heads. How about to prevent any controversey Firaxis make additiona lones downloadable from there website. If you dont want a specific one then dont download it. Simple as that its just a game. No need to take offence theres other leaders in the game who may not be as bad as Adolf Hitler but still have a pretty bad rep. I can understand Germany wanting to forget this guy but thats not ever going to happen he is kinda on the historically significant side. Keep him out of the main game and use him for a scenario prehaps ?

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Sigh... another Hitler thread.

That's actually not a bad idea, Himalia. I don't know if Firaxis will be willing to put the extra investment into downloadable leaderheads, though.

I think if Hitler were in the game, there is a small chance some media type person might do a small blurb about "Hitler...blah blah...Civ 4.... blah blah...evil...blah blah...bad for kids...blah blah..."
This might actually stimulate sales a bit, though, people secretly like the idea of having controversial stuff.

 

[noni]

i would like to hear some more opinions from other german located civ players to this. u all are telling detailed the war history about him but are living in the usa or elswhere. nice to see u know the facts but u are not emotionally involved or involved generally.

i would like to hear minds from players who live in germany and see if they also would like having hitler in the game.

 

[Telvanni]

OK, just to clear up the historcal part of why Hitler got screwed was the invasion of Russia. Dumb <Deleted> thing to do. What he consistantly did was ignore the advice of his generals and not allow them any freedom of action. Also, he regurally changed the objectives thoughout the course of the campaign.

I'm not sure the invasion was stupid, of course it looks to be, it
's how the campaign was handled, that was stupid. But if Stalin had a couple of years more, he would have his Military ready to attack The Third Reich, and I'm quite sure he would..... In fact I think Hitler should've attacked before he actually did, before the Russians where mass-producing T-34's and before the rasputitsa and the winter!

You only mention the details of the Battlefields. I think that the thing that made him fail, was his own extremistic racial-thoughts. Ukraine had long been under the hard rule of Joseph Stalin, and as the Ukrainians where hoping to get rid of the Russians, Hitler came, and slew the Russians in wast numbers! He was a savior! What Hitler should've done, instead of killing the Ukrainians, was giving them there land back (or relativly back), as they caused him alot of problems behind the lines, in his war against Russia, partisans and stuff..... and if he really wanted Ukraine, he could've taken it after he finished of Russia! Just imagine if the German rnaks where filled with the same Ukrainian soldiers, that invaded Berlin??

But you're right about the stupidity of moving whole 4th Panzerdivision (I think it was) from Moscow to Caucasus, a waste of gasoline!

As for the lovely game!
I think Adolf Hitler should be included, people know him (or think they do), he was a great leader (maybe not German, but that dosn't matter as he led the proud German people), he kind of saved Germany from the results of the cruel Versailles Agreement, he defeated most of Europe, they've already included Joseph Stalin and Mao Tsetung. And if people think the two Communist-wannabee's, isn't as bad as Adolf hitler, then they should take a look, in the Black Book of Communism!

Hitler= 6.000.000+ Kills
Stalin= 50.000.000+++++++????? Kills
Mao= 30.000.000+++ Kills

Compared to those guys, Hitler looks almost like a saint......

Moderator Action: Deleted language in quote.
-Civrules