Adolf Hitler

[cr0ws]

The USSR was a form of crude "democracy", but instead of counting "votes" they just chose who they were going to share their power with and who they will be keeping under an iron thumb. At least they were slightly "honest" about it. Not what you see these days as one party tries to underhandedly trick the other parties into taking irresponsible and wreakless decisions.

 

[DRJ]

ok we could conclude that - on mass scale - its a narrow, shifting gap as where stupidity, bad taste and unsensibility end and dangerous momentum for unethical behaviour and their movements begins.

 

[2ndimpression]

Slightly changing the topic, but if Hitler hadn't come along we may not be on the moon.... or even have modern computers as these came either directly or indirectly from war technologies. Even modern medicine and agriculture was all influenced by this.

War, all throughout history has led to developments. Not that I am in anyway saying the end justifies the means by the way, just that the bigger the war the more impact it usually has on not only on history but the future too.

ok we could conclude that - on mass scale - its a narrow, shifting gap as where stupidity, bad taste and unsensibility end and dangerous momentum for unethical behaviour and their movements begins.

People are stupid and short sighted, when trouble hits, people become more short sighted and their percieved group becomes smaller. Them and us.

Humanity has a long way to go before our species becomes better educated, more accepting and less ignorant. If you have some knowledge about the history of mankind, from travelling out of Africa and exploring the whole world, how can you be racist when we are all the same family?

Maybe if Hitler was in games etc then there would be those attracted to an extreme political movement, personally I think it would be better if society tackled the underlying causes for racism and intolerance etc, rather than just banning an image or information.

Sorry for my ramblings.

 

[os79]

When we players attack the city, and maybe raze it, what pictures do we have in our mind? Be honest. There is a high probablity of massacring and raping of civilians involved.

So the arguments against including Hitler is invalid until we realize that we are actually playing the game that encourage mus to conquer the world for our empire by whatever means necessary to win.

Just have to put in my two cents .

 

[Preytor]

Gotta add my two cents.
I agree, Hitler is a taboo subject.
If it were about what he did "wrong" then Mao would not be in Civ. Mao killed many times more people than Hitler ever did.

 

[JanissaryRush]

Hitler is in GeneralStaff's leaderhead pack. It's fairly easy to install. Just drag and drop...

I'm playing with it right now, so I guess I won't be visiting Germany any time soon. (Sorry DRJ.)

What type of leader is he? I geuss he'd be one of those tough ones that are very aggressive and improving the economy at the same time. Those 2 are must to be good opponents.

On the otherhand he was very erratic and could be overaggressive.

 

[JanissaryRush]

Sort of off-topic. How do you change leader's characteristics? I play mostly on Great Lakes so seafaring is useless.

 

[vincentz]

Just an example of Thai billboarding :

The sign says : Hitler Lives! or Hitler is not dead yet!

It was a commercial for Louis Tussauds Waxworks room in Pattaya, and was removed by request from the German and Israeli embassies.

How it got up there in the first place... tsk tsk...

 

[zappara]

[off-topic]
Did you know that group of Finns are making black comedy about Nazis on the moon? It's called Ironsky. The same team made the Starwreck movies
[/off-topic]

 

[Afforess]

Just an example of Thai billboarding :

The sign says : Hitler Lives! or Hitler is not dead yet!

It was a commercial for Louis Tussauds Waxworks room in Pattaya, and was removed by request from the German and Israeli embassies.

How it got up there in the first place... tsk tsk...

Hilarious. Shame on the Italian and German gov'ts. Luckily, if they made a billboard like that in America, our gov't would not remove it.

[off-topic]
Did you know that group of Finns are making black comedy about Nazis on the moon? It's called Ironsky. The same team made the Starwreck movies
[/off-topic]

Looks realistic enough to be funny and awesome. And it's in English. I'll have to see it.

 

[cr0ws]

Hilarious. Shame on the Italian and German gov'ts. Luckily, if they made a billboard like that in America, our gov't would not remove it.

I think a poster of Hitler in public would never see the light of day in USA. The "ghulag" would come running with purpose, ESPECIALLY these days! USA is the type of place where they are taught in schools that the greatest atrocity in human history was the jewish holocaust.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Personaly I am confused as to why people always make Hitler AGG - IND when he is so clearly AGG - CHA

 

[DRJ]

I think a poster of Hitler in public would never see the light of day in USA. The "ghulag" would come running with purpose, ESPECIALLY these days! USA is the type of place where they are taught in schools that the greatest atrocity in human history was the jewish holocaust.

and here they come again... thats why i didnt want to see this thread in the forum in the first place.

so, again for all you revisionists and appeasement liberals out there, I can only quote myself, this time bolded and underlined so you maybe begin to think about what I wrote and why not to relativize nazi crimes:

Of course each era has its villians, due to the circumstances of powershifts in society and superstition - but let's be honest:

after mankind was enlightened,
made scientific advances,
after humanism and democracy were in place
(in the so called country of the "Dichter und Denker" - poets and thinkers),
a fallback to the babaric and deathly code
poses a singularity in modern history.
Its industrial proportions and the
unhuman, mechanical way
the mass murder was organized
are outstanding,
especially as an excelling warning from the near past to the near future.

 

[cr0ws]

[off-topic]
Did you know that group of Finns are making black comedy about Nazis on the moon? It's called Ironsky. The same team made the Starwreck movies
[/off-topic]

lol @ these movies! I think the German space ships should look like giant Volkswagen beetles!

 

[cr0ws]

and here they come again... thats why i didnt want to see this thread in the forum in the first place.

so, again for all you revisionist and appeasement liberals out there, I can only quote myself, this time bolded and underlined so you maybe begin to think about what I wrote and why not to relativize nazi crimes:

I am not making things up my friend, I can tell you personally since I've grown up there since the age of 5. Like the saying goes, all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. And keeping truth under political suppression and becoming intimidated because its " "insensitive" to certain "members of society" well, that's a crime in itself and a dishonor to ancestors. And those who are ignorant of history tend to repeat the mistakes they've committed and therefor repeat them again.

 

[DRJ]

So, letting nazis roam free and not be sensible towards embanking right-wing shifting mass opinion, resulting in nazi zones, like here in germany rigth now is "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" in my opinion.

Sensibility, avoiding bad taste is the first step of getting civilized and cultivated. I don't want to see Nazis, either their flag or swastikas here and that's just fine with me, as with the rest of the people. If I go to india and see swastikas in a different historical background there, I have no problem and I can even get excited about the fine, symbolic art.

Free speech is a right, but every right brings responsibility with it. It is no taboo to make fun of Hitler or discuss him in a scientific way, but the ethical liability can't be negated and yes,
due to the historic facts, it has a very special place in education. But saying that doesn't necessarily mean that I agree about germany giving israel the newest submarines for free (or even if they pay), as it happened last week.
There is a small line regarding the critizism of philosemitism on the one hand and acting antisemitic (not in the sense of "semites", as the arabs are semites mostly as well but in the sense of antijudaism) on the other. I know what I speak of as I wouldn't say I think imperialistic zionism and ultra-orthodox fanatism is the right way to go. Nevertheless, relativizing the Holocaust can't be, either!

 

[zerog117]

Dear DRJ
lets look at this from a legal standard shall we?
within all western law is the idea that the law cannot be arbitrary therefore if germany was to say declare xyz person was not tobe spoken of in a possitive way, then all others who fit that category of person must be equally bound by that law.
let us test german to see if it meets this standard.
hilter is legal? no
stalin is legal? yes
mao zedong is legal? yes
german fails to hold to equal protection therefore the law is arbitary
btw mao and stalin were far worse then hilter

 

[Afforess]

So, letting nazis roam free and not be sensible towards embanking right-wing shifting mass opinion, resulting in nazi zones, like here in germany rigth now is "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" in my opinion.

Ever heard of

"I disagree with what you have to say but will fight to the death to protect your right to say it."

We must let even Neo-Nazi's have free speech, even if their plans are insanity. If you block them, it's only a small step to block the next group of dissenters; it's a slippery slope.

Sensibility, avoiding bad taste is the first step of getting civilized and cultivated. I don't want to see Nazis, either their flag or swastikas here and that's just fine with me, as with the rest of the people. If I go to india and see swastikas in a different historical background there, I have no problem and I can even get excited about the fine, symbolic art.

I personally hate the "peace" sign, and think that those hippies are idiotic, but I would never ban that either. You can't ban what you disagree with. You're a tyrant if you do.

Free speech is a right, but every right brings responsibility with it. It is no taboo to make fun of Hitler or discuss him in a scientific way, but the ethical liability can't be negated and yes,
due to the historic facts, it has a very special place in education. But saying that doesn't necessarily mean that I agree about germany giving israel the newest submarines for free (or even if they pay), as it happened last week.
There is a small line regarding the critizism of philosemitism on the one hand and acting antisemitic (not in the sense of "semites", as the arabs are semites mostly as well but in the sense of antijudaism) on the other. I know what I speak of as I wouldn't say I think imperialistic zionism and ultra-orthodox fanatism is the right way to go. Nevertheless, relativizing the Holocaust can't be, either!

There is no such thing as a moral duty. Even the most insane of people have a right to say there mind. Oppressing that right makes you no better than Hitler himself.

I'm sorry, but this issue is black and white. Either you are banning free speech, or you are not. There is no grey area, no in-between.

 

[cr0ws]

So, letting nazis roam free and not be sensible towards embanking right-wing shifting mass opinion, resulting in nazi zones, like here in germany rigth now is "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" in my opinion.

Such is the price of a democrapcy...you cannot force a people of different beliefs to live under one flag (especially when they've had a bad history with each other) and ideology and expect everything is going to work out fine and unison, and all it'll take is a good "propaganda machine" to buy time , because sooner or later the lies tangle up in themselves and their spinners as well. And people waking up to this reality become covert enemies of the state and saboteurs. It's what eventually kills all empires. And all empires DO fall, sooner or later. Say the third reich succeeded in firmly establishing itself throughout europe, do you think it would have lasted longer than the USSR?

Sensibility, avoiding bad taste is the first step of getting civilized and cultivated. I don't want to see Nazis, either their flag or swastikas here and that's just fine with me, as with the rest of the people. If I go to india and see swastikas in a different historical background there, I have no problem and I can even get excited about the fine, symbolic art.

What one man's "bad taste" may be another man's preferred flavor. Ever think of that?
You cannot label a certain thing as "bad taste" and ignorantly expect other people to see it the same way. That's where some people begin to call you a dictating fascist. If you feel that you do not want to see the nazis wave around their flags, start waving yours around in public (whatever it may be), once again, such is the price of "democracy", such is the nature of liberalism, under them, you are all "equal".

Free speech is a right, but every right brings responsibility with it. It is no taboo to make fun of Hitler or discuss him in a scientific way, but the ethical liability can't be negated and yes,
due to the historic facts, it has a very special place in education. But saying that doesn't necessarily mean that I agree about germany giving israel the newest submarines for free (or even if they pay), as it happened last week.
There is a small line regarding the critizism of philosemitism on the one hand and acting antisemitic (not in the sense of "semites", as the arabs are semites mostly as well but in the sense of antijudaism) on the other. I know what I speak of as I wouldn't say I think imperialistic zionism and ultra-orthodox fanatism is the right way to go. Nevertheless, relativizing the Holocaust can't be, either!

I agree with that point!

 

[Crusis]

Gee, you're gone for a few days and you miss a good Hitler debate.

Hitler certainly shouldn't be left out for moral reasons, but for legal reasons as Zappara said. Germany is the only home country of the three leading murderers of the 20th century that had the decency to take a stand against the glorification of that murderer.

Both Stalin and Mao killed more people than Hitler. I'm not belittling the evil of Hitler, I'm saying that he wasn't alone in that evil. If you step back into History, there are dozens of men who are no different than Hitler. How many cities in history have been sacked and every man woman and child killed? In East Germany after WWII every woman was raped repeatedly by the occupying Red Army. The Japanese massacred millions of Koreans and Chinese, and set up rape houses for their soldiers. They ate the livers of their conquered foes.

Barbarism isn't limited to Hitler, it's just that Hitler was a Western leader from a civilized nation therefore had a much larger impact on the psyche of the Western world. We expected the communists to act like animals. After all, they're just communists. We expected the Japanese to act like animals, after all just 100 years prior they were beheading people with swords and tearing their own guts out. But the Germans? We live NEXT to GERMANS! Surely they can't be baking Jews. Noooooo, let's put our heads in some sand.

Hitler hit us harder because he was closer to what we thought we were. But he was no more of a monster than thousands of characters from history. Vlad the Impaler? That countess from Transylvania who bathed in the blood of 600+ young maidens as a youth elixir? Genghis Khan? The Romans crucifying thousands on the road out of Rome? Nero killing Christians? Osama bin Laden? Saddam?

Hitler is dime a dozen. Some of you given absolute power would turn into monsters. Some would become benevolent despots.

Someone asked the question "what does it simulate in Civ when your armies conquer a city?". If you were the aggressor, it simulates the German expansion into France, the Japanese conquest of Manchuria, the Chinese conquest of Tibet, or the Russian annexation of Eastern Europe.

Just my point(s) of view, really. But Hitler was nothing special in his evil, but he was absolute evil like so many others. To accord him special status as an anti-christ gives him status he is not worthy of.