Advanced Great People

[LeftBower]

Moving discussion regarding great people from other thread to here.

I guess some of the things I learned in American history about the struggles farmers had here to figure out what crops to grow where and the few truly innovational and standout farmers that made major breakthroughs in determining what crops are best in some of the more challenging American soils (Potatoes in Idaho for example), and in more ancient history, the invention of corn itself - a mesoamerican achievement, gives me causes to feel that a Great Farmer would be useful still, particularly moreso if it were not just a 'buildable' unit but a real GP. (I think this is one thing ls612 and I really agreed on actually...)

I was thinking the same thing.

Maybe it could be a 'form' a Great Hunter could take? We have GGs becoming G'C's (Great Commanders) with a mission use... perhaps the same could be done to make a Great Hunter become a Great Explorer as one of his options? And perhaps the Great Hunter could become a Legendary Hunter alternatively, which would make him an actual hunting unit. These transitions would be helpful for making it so we wouldn't need too much AI work actually...

Ok, I can see a great farmer being a thing now. Still think it should potentially work on a separate bar to scientist/engineers. Maybe it goes up depending on the number of worked improvements around the city? Using your achievements as a framework them an uber-worker that can sac itself to create crop-resources at a place (potatoes in Idaho/mesoamerican corn) or something.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That's pretty much exactly what I had in mind, yes. Add some GP pt earnings to every working citizen, with the exception of the base 'citizen' and possibly the 'slave'. Do this by making worked improvements also add GP pt(s).

Separate bars huh? Maybe not a bad idea. We've been discussing the Great Hunter and Great Admiral going on separate bars to the GG so if we can do that, we can do as you suggest with Improvement based GP pts... Some have suggested to separate ALL GPs into their own bars and there's a mod out there that does it... Does anyone remember which mod that is?

 

[ls612]

The separate bars idea I think would be a bit problematic, given that everything from vanilla Civ 4 expects the bar to be cumulative.

I still have the concept Great Farmer as a GP code from my New Horizons drafts, so I could very easily add that if no one dissents.

 

[LeftBower]

That's pretty much exactly what I had in mind, yes. Add some GP pt earnings to every working citizen, with the exception of the base 'citizen' and possibly the 'slave'. Do this by making worked improvements also add GP pt(s).

Separate bars huh? Maybe not a bad idea. We've been discussing the Great Hunter and Great Admiral going on separate bars to the GG so if we can do that, we can do as you suggest with Improvement based GP pts... Some have suggested to separate ALL GPs into their own bars and there's a mod out there that does it... Does anyone remember which mod that is?

Don't remember the mod, but I think the current, more cerebral great people should share a bar, and a seperate bar for any more hands-on great people. Great farmers/fishermen/ranchers (for livestock resources) etc.

Idea: Great farmers can sacc self for a building giving all farms in city radius +1 food (or +1 food/farm in city radius) if that's doable - representing him bringing better farming practices specific to the region?

 

[ls612]

Don't remember the mod, but I think the current, more cerebral great people should share a bar, and a seperate bar for any more hands-on great people. Great farmers/fishermen/ranchers (for livestock resources) etc.

Idea: Great farmers can sacc self for a building giving all farms in city radius +1 food (or +1 food/farm in city radius) if that's doable - representing him bringing better farming practices specific to the region?

That isn't easily doable now, but it may be in the future. I'd say for now make him a GP and make his action of planting a resource instantaneous. The hard part would be finding buildings to give Farmer GP points, but I'll leave that to Hydro.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I like the ideas, but I think there's a little research to do to see what we can and can't do, particularly with a separate bar, additional missions, worked improvements providing GP pts, and once all that gets established, the creation of a few more GPs to go with them.

This could be a really cool project but if we just jump in and implement what you're suggesting, ls, we'll end up without any Great Farmers coming into the game (not many anyhow... similar situation we have with the Great Doctor now). Without a specialist to back the Farmer, we'd be in real trouble.

So I'm not against what you want to see here... I'm very much with you on this. But let's make it a full project plan before deciding what to do. DH has some input on that too considering that he wants to do away with the GF for a number of reasons of his own and felt there were some poor ways the GF was implemented. On both accounts I'd like to hear what he has to say before we commit to even retaining the GF, even though I do love that unit!

 

[johny smith]

I had an idea way back on Great Farmers, but it would take a big change to resources.I do know what you guys have done with bonus resources from default on being placed on the map. So this is going off default.

First I was thinking plant (and maybe animal) resources would no longer be placed on the map at the beginning. The plants and animals would appear as units randomly spawning on the map. I know plant units but hear me out.

So you have plants (and maybe animals) jumping locations by areas restricted by terrain types. Then you have a unit (or just a worker) that can specifically capture the plant or animal units. These are then adding to a stored list for things you have captured.

Then you could build a farm based on things you have captured. So for example you capture wild rice bouncing around the map. Some unit (or worker) lays a rice farm, and the farm improvement upgrades after so many turns (like a cottage) into a more domesticated version of rice. (Techs could speed it up.) Each successfully stage of upgrade counts as GP points to for a Great Farmer.

Ok with the Great Farmer you could then place special great farming improvements based on the capture list you have. So in this case you have some rice on the list. You could then create a great farm with the unit that would be placed on the map or added to a city (depends on what resource).

The resource in this case could be a very good strand of rice like Basmati Rice on the map, or perhaps you create a Sake making building. Anyway each great farm would be unique, and would be considered higher than normal resources.

Well probably just way to complicated, but I could see how domesticated of animals could be tied into the count as well. Anyway just another one of those ideas that got nowhere.

Edit: I am taking a lot classes and have not had the time to find my Civilization 4 Files and install C2C. Please don't tell me there is already something done like this because I am already feeling dumb already for not knowing what is in C2C.

 

[strategyonly]

OK, i wont tell you then jj

 

[johny smith]

I have finally installed the game. I had to dig around for awhile. Maybe instead of talking I should actually see the mod. It seems every time I go to say how about this idea...you guys are like uh hey dummy we already did something similar. I find it enlightening that you guys have done so much, but at the same time very strange that you already had thought about it a similar view.

 

[GT Ranma]

I also would not mind more GP only things. Say, buildings, what not, that only GP's can make.

Now, why you ask? Because GP get to be kind of ... under powered towards end game. It would be nice to, even past Modern Age, to have to decide strategically what to do each time you get a GP. Weigh pros vs cons of each thing it can do. After a while, there is really only 1 thing you can do with them ; ; Kinda makes me SAD (Like Surround and Destroy Modmod...)

 

[Hydromancerx]

That isn't easily doable now, but it may be in the future. I'd say for now make him a GP and make his action of planting a resource instantaneous. The hard part would be finding buildings to give Farmer GP points, but I'll leave that to Hydro.

We do have a fair amount of Agricultural related buildings. If we need it I can go through and add Farmer GP to buildings and wonders I think would be deserving of it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I had an idea way back on Great Farmers, but it would take a big change to resources.I do know what you guys have done with bonus resources from default on being placed on the map. So this is going off default.

First I was thinking plant (and maybe animal) resources would no longer be placed on the map at the beginning. The plants and animals would appear as units randomly spawning on the map. I know plant units but hear me out.

So you have plants (and maybe animals) jumping locations by areas restricted by terrain types. Then you have a unit (or just a worker) that can specifically capture the plant or animal units. These are then adding to a stored list for things you have captured.

Then you could build a farm based on things you have captured. So for example you capture wild rice bouncing around the map. Some unit (or worker) lays a rice farm, and the farm improvement upgrades after so many turns (like a cottage) into a more domesticated version of rice. (Techs could speed it up.) Each successfully stage of upgrade counts as GP points to for a Great Farmer.

Ok with the Great Farmer you could then place special great farming improvements based on the capture list you have. So in this case you have some rice on the list. You could then create a great farm with the unit that would be placed on the map or added to a city (depends on what resource).

The resource in this case could be a very good strand of rice like Basmati Rice on the map, or perhaps you create a Sake making building. Anyway each great farm would be unique, and would be considered higher than normal resources.

Well probably just way to complicated, but I could see how domesticated of animals could be tied into the count as well. Anyway just another one of those ideas that got nowhere.

Edit: I am taking a lot classes and have not had the time to find my Civilization 4 Files and install C2C. Please don't tell me there is already something done like this because I am already feeling dumb already for not knowing what is in C2C.

If they were immobile plant units then maybe. But having around on the map seems weird. I know the subdued animal has become a bit like Pokemon, but we don't need plant type Pokemon too.

Alternatively we might want "Goodie Hut"-like buildings that give you wild resources. They could either auto-plant on the spot or give you a special Gatherer/Farmer unit that can plant it back in your territory.

I have finally installed the game. I had to dig around for awhile. Maybe instead of talking I should actually see the mod. It seems every time I go to say how about this idea...you guys are like uh hey dummy we already did something similar. I find it enlightening that you guys have done so much, but at the same time very strange that you already had thought about it a similar view.

While there are some things that we come up with on our own we have read your threads such as RoH and Fabula Terra.

 

[Thunderbrd]

We do have a fair amount of Agricultural related buildings. If we need it I can go through and add Farmer GP to buildings and wonders I think would be deserving of it.

Would it be enough though? When the Lion's share, by far, of GP pts is earned via specialists?

This reminds me though of the project I had in mind to make a game option that makes just about every building give some defined GP pts...

 

[LeftBower]

We do have a fair amount of Agricultural related buildings. If we need it I can go through and add Farmer GP to buildings and wonders I think would be deserving of it.

I don't think we want Great Farmers to be the same as the current GP. They're gained by having people do the job in the city and the buildings. We can't have a farmer specialist in the town (they're the people working the farms). Additionally, I'd hate to grab a great farmer instead of a great priest etc. just because I was using a lot of farms - and I feel that working a lot of farms should be how you get great farmers. Thusly I think a separate bar for "Great Workers" or some such might be necessary. Failing that, maybe a chance for a city to spawn a great farmer each turn, modified by the number of farms it's working?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Would it be enough though? When the Lion's share, by far, of GP pts is earned via specialists?

If you specialized a city ... maybe.

 

[ls612]

We do have a fair amount of Agricultural related buildings. If we need it I can go through and add Farmer GP to buildings and wonders I think would be deserving of it.

OK then, I'll put the Great Farmer conversion on my list of stuff to do.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The big problem is that there is no more real estate on the screen. I ended up putting the property (crime etc.) bars - like the rev one, in the city screen on the bar above the units where the PLE stuff is on the main screen.

Great Generals are got by combat, all the others are via buildings and specialists. This is why the two different bars. The current Great Farmer is totally different and is a built unit.

If we add the Great Hunter and Great Admiral they would also be by combat and are basically special types of GG. We would need to extend all the GG stuff to both, which means Commanders and special buildings as well as the exp we have already diacussed.

I had an idea way back on Great Farmers, but it would take a big change to resources.I do know what you guys have done with bonus resources from default on being placed on the map. So this is going off default.

First I was thinking plant (and maybe animal) resources would no longer be placed on the map at the beginning. The plants and animals would appear as units randomly spawning on the map. I know plant units but hear me out.

Not at all sure about this bit. It probably would be OK for prehistoric start but for scenarios and later starts I would expect no spawning.

However, I like the idea of "captured" animal and plant units. Especially if there are restrictions on where they could be placed on the map. Eg horses only on cleared plains, grass or lush (or savannah) and not next to another horse resource. Note: you still can't place it on an existing (found or not found) resource.

This would replace the current Great Farmer. I would give "plant" actions to recon, diplomat and spy units. They could try and get seeds (or cuttings or whatever) from the wild resource or steal some from other nations.

Then you could build a farm based on things you have captured. So for example you capture wild rice bouncing around the map. Some unit (or worker) lays a rice farm, and the farm improvement upgrades after so many turns (like a cottage) into a more domesticated version of rice. (Techs could speed it up.) Each successfully stage of upgrade counts as GP points to for a Great Farmer.

Ok with the Great Farmer you could then place special great farming improvements based on the capture list you have. So in this case you have some rice on the list. You could then create a great farm with the unit that would be placed on the map or added to a city (depends on what resource).

The resource in this case could be a very good strand of rice like Basmati Rice on the map, or perhaps you create a Sake making building. Anyway each great farm would be unique, and would be considered higher than normal resources.

Well probably just way to complicated, but I could see how domesticated of animals could be tied into the count as well. Anyway just another one of those ideas that got nowhere.

Edit: I am taking a lot classes and have not had the time to find my Civilization 4 Files and install C2C. Please don't tell me there is already something done like this because I am already feeling dumb already for not knowing what is in C2C.

Looks interesting needs more thought..

 

[johny smith]

Not at all sure about this bit. It probably would be OK for prehistoric start but for scenarios and later starts I would expect no spawning.

The spawning would have to be turned off later in the game, or either have some way of restricting some plants by removing the ones that have already been captured. For example Coffee was not discovered until the 9th century. Would it be appropriate then for just certain plants to spawn at different time periods? Or should all of them spawn at the beginning?

However, I like the idea of "captured" animal and plant units. Especially if there are restrictions on where they could be placed on the map. Eg horses only on cleared plains, grass or lush (or savannah) and not next to another horse resource. Note: you still can't place it on an existing (found or not found) resource.

I was simply thinking of improvements not based on the resource requirement now like a cottage, but the extra terrain restrictions of course for the improvement. For example I thought you could place a cottage on a undiscovered oil resource?

This would replace the current Great Farmer. I would give "plant" actions to recon, diplomat and spy units. They could try and get seeds (or cuttings or whatever) from the wild resource or steal some from other nations.

That would be cool. Yo, man I stole your seeds, and I am growing the best s**t now.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The big problem is that there is no more real estate on the screen. I ended up putting the property (crime etc.) bars - like the rev one, in the city screen on the bar above the units where the PLE stuff is on the main screen.

I agree we're getting low on screen real estate. What if all three types (GG, GH, and GA) were located on the same bar BUT were actually on their own progress scales at the same time? The bar would show only the one that is currently the closest to being reached and a hoverover of the bar would break down all three. Additionally, they would be further linked in that the amounts needed to get to the next one would be increased for all three when any one of them was born. Think this'd work for you?

Great Generals are got by combat, all the others are via buildings and specialists. This is why the two different bars. The current Great Farmer is totally different and is a built unit.

The concept we're kicking around here is to have a 'Great Citizen' type set including the Farmer, Prospector, Fisher, possibly Forester even, that is similar to the other GPs but is generated on a differing scale entirely, although their points may be generated in much the same manner and be in competition with points being alocated towards the other GPs. It'll take more thought and I know you want to do some of the more advanced things like what you mentioned before but I think it could all work together in a neat harmony still if we consider it enough.

As Johny suggested already, the Farmer could just be an end step in establishing a resource based on the seed access we have and the location he wants to place. But he could have equivalent lesser versions of himself that could make less automatically successful attempts so we don't have to fully rely on the GREAT farmer entirely. This is similar to the idea floated earlier about the Great Prospector, being a truly superior version of a Prospector unit that could TRY to do what the Great Prospector would be able to do automatically (find a local mineable or quarryable resource - somewhat at random and based, perhaps on the Geo map info in that tile).

I'm definitely not against making the Farmer function a lot more interesting! And I think he could be useful in your plans and ideals actually...

As for 'progress bar real estate' a similar convention could apply to the GP bar here as I suggested for the Great Warlords above.

If we add the Great Hunter and Great Admiral they would also be by combat and are basically special types of GG. We would need to extend all the GG stuff to both, which means Commanders and special buildings as well as the exp we have already diacussed.

Segmenting to the differing pools for all three could be done in the coding. We could even have some interesting new trait, civic and building tags to manipulate the progress on each differently.

 

[LeftBower]

I agree we're getting low on screen real estate. What if all three types (GG, GH, and GA) were located on the same bar BUT were actually on their own progress scales at the same time? The bar would show only the one that is currently the closest to being reached and a hoverover of the bar would break down all three. Additionally, they would be further linked in that the amounts needed to get to the next one would be increased for all three when any one of them was born. Think this'd work for you?

This would work great. Not sure about the linking with amount increase, any particular reasons you were wanting to do this?