Aelf's thread reloaded

[futurehermit]

I don't know. It's definitely a possibility and has obvious synergy with the UB. Sometimes, when I am going for more of a Snaaty opening on Monarch (where barbs aren't as much of a threat) I build/chop SH instead of cranking out archers while growing to the cap. It seems to work ok.

However, in my recent games, I've been going for a rush if available and they have been working out a lot better, frankly.

I think you could be successful either way, but it would be nice to know the proximity of Darius and whether you have horses before making that decision.

 

[The Rook]

That is good to hear--I've never done a holkan rush and I would think they would be fairly similar--the holkan immune to FS and needs hunting as well.
How did you do it--one city or 2?

Just one city, this is why I considered the Holkan (and possibly Dog Soldier) to be possibly only second to the Quechua for rushing a nearby neighbour. I know they aren't the best units, but the lack of a need to build a settler, build a city, build a mine, connect the mine, connect the cities saves much time, and increases the likelihood that you will catch your neighbour with their pants down. This of course is all assuming that you don't fluke horses/copper in the capital.

I certainly don't play Pacal with the rush in mind from turn 1, if I can seize adequate terrain peacefully I will do that instead. I like the Holkan as an anti-barb unit too , sometimes those strategic resources are situated in dubious locations that I don't want to settle immediately.

As for being late--to be honest I really wasn't thinking about a rush--just took the normal path of worker-war and I only have one tile to improve so it seemed obvious.

Well probably not too late really, but it would help if we have more knowledge about Darius's position, and direction of expansion.

 

[The Rook]

How would we do 2 pop whips?
We only have one major food tile here.

Assuming your capital is at happy cap by the time you have 6 Dog Soldiers, you could certainly whip it a couple of times near the end of your rush building, with an extra chop that would be another 4 Dog Soldiers.

I don't at all think that is a worst case scenario--put his capital on a hill with 3 archers and have him whip another and 10 is not necessarily a favorite.

Anyway we really don't know the layout of the land--there could easily be another AI (or more). Darius could be as far as 13 away.

I agree that if Darius happens to have 3 Archers fortified on a hill in his capital, then the rush becomes risky, or if he has Immortals things could get very nasty. If Darius is 13 squares away, he might not cramp us too much anyway.

I don't think it is necessarily too late to rush him, if its still only turn 23, but the value really depends on the scenario imho. If you are happy with the terrain exposed to the east, then there probably isn't much value in rushing him. If the terrain we clearly have there is inadequate to form an empire, then it may help if we expand towards Darius very quickly. If we can do this peacefully then that's great. My main fear is that Darius will begin by expanding towards us, and as we know, at Immortal level the AI gets 3 cities online very quickly. If he takes all the best spots for himself before we can get a settler out, then perhaps an early war would be worth the risk?

Of course there is always some risk with a rush, but it might help if we know where Darius is, and to which direction he is expanding. I notice a pig resource and a river to the west, if Darius doesn't get there first, perhaps there could be some good city sites for us? That is assuming that Darius is located west. It will be interesting to see what is hidden by the fog SW too.

BTW, bear in mind that Immortal level is currently very challenging for me. Although I can beat it, I would hardly say that it's in my comfort zone. You are very likely the more experienced player at this level, so this could be a case of the amateur preaching to the pro.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll find this thread educational, so good luck!

 

[The Rook]

What do you guys think about chopping SH?
It looks like we'll have need for early totems.
That strategy would be I think switch research to myst, build a worker after warrior, then chop it out.
Researching AH seems not critical here--we're gambling a bit that there may be horse on the plains tile in the BFC.
I rarely get SH as it seems like it's basically a tradeoff with an early settler.
I think we could get it around 2500 which should be OK but I'm inclined against. Just seems like we really need to get hustling on blocking.

I agree, with Darius nearby, we either need to attack, or block imho.

 

[shyuhe]

A dog soldier rush would be an interesting idea but Darius would have to bep retty close to warrant a try. To do a 2 pop whip, you need to invest less than 5 hammers in a dog soldier in the queue on the first turn. Then you can whip for 2 pop on the second turn. It basically gives you 2 soldiers for the of one.

I wouldn't commit to the stonehenge yet. It definitely opens up possibilities with the totem pole but I think it will constrain your early game options since it willl plug up your capital for such a long time. I'd prefer to see how close Darius is and explore a rush option before going to SH.

 

[oyzar]

Get AH next. Popping horses would be awesome .

 

[Jet]

Researching AH seems not critical here--we're gambling a bit that there may be horse on the plains tile in the BFC.

Agreed, assuming you have an idea about how other techs (Mysticism, Pottery, Masonry) would help you more.

I think we could get [Stonehenge] around 2500 which should be OK but I'm inclined against. Just seems like we really need to get hustling on blocking.

Agreed!

However, I guess Stonehenge might be worth it if you feel like bulbing Theology. Here is a possible argument:
* research Poly, hoping for Marble somewhere
* research Mono (researched Masonry anyway)
* bulb Theology and run Theocracy. Darius and Fred didn't found Hind or Bud, so possible 1-religion continent.
* bulb Machinery with Engineer from Pyramids
* war with 7 XP Elephants and 8 XP Crossbowmen. But I have to admit, the argument for Theology may not be very strong, since Stables and Totem Poles already get you the second promotion for both unit types.

 

[ungy]

To do a 2 pop whip, you need to invest less than 5 hammers in a dog soldier in the queue on the first turn. Then you can whip for 2 pop on the second turn. It basically gives you 2 soldiers for the of one.

Actually what I was really referring to was how do I grow the city enough with the single food resource.

I wouldn't commit to the stonehenge yet. It definitely opens up possibilities with the totem pole but I think it will constrain your early game options since it willl plug up your capital for such a long time. I'd prefer to see how close Darius is and explore a rush option before going to SH.

Well I have to decide on tech. If I go AH then the SH option is gone--can't get both AH and myst in time to build it.

 

[ungy]

I don't think it is necessarily too late to rush him, if its still only turn 23, but the value really depends on the scenario imho. If you are happy with the terrain exposed to the east, then there probably isn't much value in rushing him. If the terrain we clearly have there is inadequate to form an empire, then it may help if we expand towards Darius very quickly. If we can do this peacefully then that's great. My main fear is that Darius will begin by expanding towards us, and as we know, at Immortal level the AI gets 3 cities online very quickly. If he takes all the best spots for himself before we can get a settler out, then perhaps an early war would be worth the risk?

Yes this is also how I would view things. The land to the east is definately not sufficient. If we're staying peaceful we need to probably get 2 good sites towards Darius + the eastern lands.

BTW, bear in mind that Immortal level is currently very challenging for me. Although I can beat it, I would hardly say that it's in my comfort zone. You are very likely the more experienced player at this level, so this could be a case of the amateur preaching to the pro.

I'm definately hit or miss at this level--keep the advice coming.

 

[shyuhe]

If you have to commit at this point, I'd take AH over mysticism. It's the safer option and you'll want horses eventually anyways. Plus there's a decent chance it's in your bfc for a hammer improvement.

You can also build *gasp* farms (sorry, I know it's a forbidden word around here ) to speed up growth. If you're going to go whip heavy, you will probably stay at size 4 and whip down to 2 every 10 turns. With 1 food resource + 2 farms, you should be able to grow back to size 4 in 10 turns for another whip. You can chop 2 forests in 10 turns to turn out an extra dog soldier as well.

 

[ungy]

OK- I think I'm going to go AH-myst.
Question is what build order. With all this forest and the need for scouting I'm inclined to build a second worker and a dog soldier before the settler.

 

[The Rook]

OK- I think I'm going to go AH-myst.
Question is what build order. With all this forest and the need for scouting I'm inclined to build a second worker and a dog soldier before the settler.

Perhaps begin building a Dog Soldier, whilst uncovering the fog to the west and south west with the warrior? That way, if we have some breathing space, the Dog Soldier can be used to garrison the 1st settler/city, if not, you could potentially switch production to Barracks and start thinking about a rush.

So I would be inclined to go Dog Soldier first.

 

[Scaphism]

I'm not sure what your near-term goals are, and it will probably depend quite a bit on what the map reveals anyways.
An Oracle-Feudalism slingshot is very difficult and I wouldn't really count on it.
Oracle-Metal Casting (GE for Machinery) and XBows is probably a safer bet though it would require Iron. The (other) benefit of early machinery is you can build Watermills - if you're going light on cottages they're probably the improvement you want on the river.

With all those forests around I would be strongly inclined towards building another worker. With that many forests they will always have something to do.
I'm not as sure about AH next - there is plenty of time to get it before you build a settler, which is #3 in the queue at the earliest. I'd be more inclined to research Mysticism and maybe even the Wheel.

I always have trouble deciding what to research with Sitting Bull early on. He has lots of options open to him without a strong push in any particular direction. Mining-BW for production and Dog Soldiers, Wheel-Pottery-Writing for libraries and research (whether SE or CE, you need pottery and a library), or even the UB requires Myst-Hunting-Archery. Then there are Oracle gambits to consider. He gets pulled down every early research path.

From my POV, you've done a good job scouting E, now you need to see the West and where the AIs are. AH could pay off if you pop horses in the BFC, but it's really not a requirement at this point.
I'm inclined to go with a tech that is definitely useful and required, like the Wheel.

And a Dog Soldier before Settler should give you a chance to grow a bit with that irrigated corn - allowing you to whip that settler and have an escort for it too.

 

[The Rook]

An Oracle-Feudalism slingshot is very difficult and I wouldn't really count on it.
Oracle-Metal Casting (GE for Machinery) and XBows is probably a safer bet though it would require Iron. The (other) benefit of early machinery is you can build Watermills - if you're going light on cottages they're probably the improvement you want on the river.

I think going for Oracle would be a risky strategy at this level, under the circumstances, it should be a very low priority at this stage imho. Sitting Bull isn't Industrious, we don't have marble, and Darius is nearby. I'm doubtful that we have the time to rex or rush AND build Oracle. "If" we go for an early wonder, I think Pyramids should be a higher priority. We have stone nearby, and Sitting Bull is Philosophical, a great trait to run a SE with Representation.

 

[ungy]

I think going for Oracle would be a risky strategy at this level, under the circumstances, it should be a very low priority at this stage imho. Sitting Bull isn't Industrious, we don't have marble, and Darius is nearby. I'm doubtful that we have the time to rex or rush AND build Oracle. "If" we go for an early wonder, I think Pyramids should be a higher priority. We have stone nearby, and Sitting Bull is Philosophical, a great trait to run a SE with Representation.

Agree with all of it--definately no oracle.

 

[Scaphism]

Rook - I agree. I was responding to the suggestions for the Oracle-Feudalism gambit on the first page. I probably should have make a clear reference to that in my post.

Stone + Philosophical does encourage the pyramids but from what we've seen of the map so far it's not exactly food-rich.
There are a lot of plains tiles and not a lot of irrigation. A few lakes and a river through the capital.
Since ungy is mostly planning to run a SE anyways, Representation is great for that. I'd be a lot more enthusiastic about it if stone was in the first ring of a good second city site, or if there was a good food tile in the first ring as well. As it stands he'd need to work a mediocre tile for ~8 turns to get to pop 2, then whip a totem pole and wait another 10 turns before starting on a quarry - which takes 6+ turns IIRC.

It's not out of the question, but it's not a no brainer on whether or not he jumps at the stone and pyramids.

 

[shyuhe]

Oracle without mysticism at the get-go is tough. A second worker will help, but you're going to have to start worrying about barbs soon as well. Either you'll have to go dog soldier first or worker and chop out some dog soldiers. Since you can scout, I think dog soldier --> worker is better.

 

[ungy]

OK-time to play a little more. I'm away the early part of next week and want to get a bit farther in.
So I leave research to AH.

3040 Darius claims the pigs. Well nothing I could've done about that anyway.
Despite all my misgivings we may end up having to rush after all.
I build a worker after the warrior.
He's close after all--7 away. I don't see any more food I can claim. I'm going to try and get a look at the capital as well as scout some more but I think I need to rush. I decide to build a single DS w/o the barracks to give myself a chance to look around some more before making the commitment to rush.
2600 AH in and we have the horse!

This makes the rush a lot better (which is good since I don't think we have a choice).
There is a bear to the w so I rotate the warrior back and plan to scout there with a DS.

 

[shyuhe]

Looks like rushing is a very appealing option here. The only issue is if we're too late... Dog solders aren't the best for attacking archers (although they'll tear up other melee units). I think 3:1 is a safe ratio so assuming 2 archers in Pasargadae and 3 archers in Persepolis, that's ... 15 soldiers That's not happening... Well, taking Pasargadae should be possible with just 6 so I'd whip/chop a quick army and go declare war. If Darius starts spamming archers, lure them out to the open and kill them. If you move your units 2-3 tiles away from the city, the AI will send its offensive stack out and you can run by them towards the city (yes, the new AI still has issues with that old trick).

 

[Zanttu]

Yeah, looks like Darius is too close to comfort.. Rush may be your only choice, since there really aren't any good city spots to the east. So now just chop, chop and chop your army out of the barracks asap. Build dog soldiers while waiting for the wheel, so you don't waste any time. Then after the wheel and horse are on-line, switch production to chariots. I would try to raze the pigs city first using dog soldiers before chariots (but remember to keep at least one DS for stack protection) and then run to his capital with chariots as they are faster and for that reason may face less defenders. If you manage to capture his capital, the target of the war is reached..