Afghanistan: The playground

[Benz]

A poor land without ressources, low rate of alphabetization and still the center of interest of the most powerful nations?

USSR, USA, UK, name it! They all tried to rule this area some day.

The reason is simple and the origin is elsewhere. It is in Bakou, capital of Azerbaïdjan.

Into the Caspian (spelling?) sea, you can found the biggest potential of petrol concentration. It is an "El Dorado" the mutlinationals dream of.

They americans wanted to control Afghanistan thru the Talibans. That is why they sponsered them to take over the country. They imagined that if the Talibans keep this country into slavery, it could then be easy to control the Talibans by offering them benefits from the petrol earnings. It didn't turned out this way. In 1990, Unocal was the biggest multinational specialised in petrol exploitation and they planned to construct a pipeline thru the Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The Americans sent a warning in 1998 and they gave two options to the Talibans.

1. You can receive the benefit of profits and you let us have our pipelines.
2. You can receive intensive bomber and you will be trashed out of this land.

This is where Ossama Bin Laden comes into the playground. After few terrorism acts in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, he did on the september 11, 2001, what you all already know.

After the Afghanistan has been cleaned up, the americans placed at the leadership of this country, the perfect yes man, a good trojan horse, Amid Karzaï. He was nothing less than the guy in charge of the study about the pipeline in Afghanistan for Unocal. no doubt about it, the clean up to open the path for the pipeline will be the priority. Helping out the poor citizens to rebuild their homes is just a joke.

Imagine... the Afghan women were living a nightmare and the americans had only one thing in mind, deal with the Talibans for the pipeline.

What is our human liability? At what point are we concerned? Can we do something? Or should we never mind? Eating bretzel while watching a football game until a new kamikaze strike us again and of course, pretending it is an attack against freedom...?

Freedom of what? Freedom of ignorance, freedom of selfish? freedom to let our leaders turning the world upside down because we do not feel concerned?

I was not born yet when a man walked on the moon. How come that we are now falling so low?

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by Benz
A poor land without ressources, low rate of alphabetization and still the center of interest of the most powerful nations?

The Americans sent a warning in 1998 and they gave two options to the Talibans.
1. You can receive the benefit of profits and you let us have our pipelines.
2. You can receive intensive bomber and you will be trashed out of this land.

This is where Ossama Bin Laden comes into the playground. After few terrorism acts in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, he did on the september 11, 2001, what you all already know.

I was not born yet when a man walked on the moon.

Benz, what a crock. Yeah - you were not born when a man walked on the moon, and it shows. (No offence to other younger folks in the audience).

I was going to write a big long reply to this, explaining how ridiculous it is. But then I realized, when I was a teenage crazy naive university leftist, I could have done so much better than this I..S. / SWP colouring-book trotskyist crap, so why should I dignify it with a reply when its weakness speaks for itself?

How come the left has fallen so low?

 

[Jugulator]

The way I see it is that America has tried…along with the help of others to destroy one of the richest terrorists in the world. Now what happened as I gather it dear chap is that America, during the cold war funded the Taliban, as they were fighting the Russians forces that were invading their country.

Obviously funding the Taliban was very dangerous, and then it all backfired. After the Russians (after 10 years of fruitless war) retreated back, the Men in Black tried to assassinate Osama Bin Laden, I’m sure they realised what a threat he could cause….seeing that they trained him and his movement (not bowel movement) in counter manoeuvres and other military measures.

So you see some of your facts are wrong…and your two points below that you stated….

1 You can receive the benefit of profits and you let us have our pipelines.
2. You can receive intensive bomber and you will be trashed out of this land.

I think the first one sounds quite like a civilised proposal, but the second one sounds stupid and I hope you don’t mean the second one to be a quotation. The reason for this is that I really don’t see the Americans being that stupid to put it quite lick that my good man.

Anyway just thought I would share my thoughts….but I know that America knows what has happened in the past. It is trying obviously under curtains to put it right, and to show that America does not let anyone F*** with them....and it has the backing of the rest of the free world to catch these persons. I certainly would not call it a "playground"......

 

[CurtSibling]

"Playtime" for Oscuma Bin Laden is over.

The North Americans and the sane thinking world have struck
a blow to the forces of evil and nazi ignorance.

The lessons of the past must be learned and the safegaurds put
in place so that the horror of 11/9/01 will not happen again.

We owe the victims that much...

Freedom is a hard-won gift and must be guarded!

 

[Benz]

Richard III,

You are funny you know? You look like the General of the US-air force into the movie Doctor StrangeLove (British movie). A very good movie that reflects all the paranoïa about the cold war.

----------------------------

Jugulator,

I forgot to say that I took most of the information from a report on our public television and they were stating Jean-Charles Brisard. I could not have find out my self what options the USA gave to the Talibans.

"I think the first one sounds quite like a civilised proposal, but the second one sounds stupid and I hope you don’t mean the second one to be a quotation. The reason for this is that I really don’t see the Americans being that stupid to put it quite lick that my good man. "

Think twice to what you have said. You say that option one is civilised. It means that for you, it is ok to support terrorists and their fanatic governement as long as they let you have your pipeline crossing the country. I think we do not have the same definition of civilised or maybe you do not evaluate the whole meaning behind it?

The event of september 11 was not THE attack against freedom. It is only one among all others. It was the first one on the USA's land. Afghan women are living a nightmare for years. This is a real attack against freedom. Not yours of course.

"and it has the backing of the rest of the free world to catch these persons. "

Yep! I hope they will catch him but, I am afraid there will be another one like him after. As long as USA (and the followers) won't change their foreign policies, it may happens again and again. I hope we will learn from our mistakes.

 

[joespaniel]

Yeah, I hope we learn from our mistakes too.

I hope next time we go and smash murderers BEFORE they attack, and the public opinion be damned. We should have done this in 1998!!!

If their is a "next" Osama bin-Laden, Im confident we wont let him get as established nor as powerfull.

And thats a good thing.

There is no right and wrong in this world, only us and them. I used to believe otherwise, but I was young and naive. Your noble ideas about how the world should work are, indeed, noble. I am not trying to insult you, thats not my intent. But the world is not like that.

Our parents and grandparents understood this, but had the first-hand knowledge of a great economic depression, fighting German Nazis and Japanese Imperialists, and real threat of extinction from the USSR, to hammer the point home.

America is not the "good guy" of the world. We are just Americans. If other nations want to be our friends, we are good friends. There are many benefits in that arrangement.

The Taliban wanted to be our enemy. Plain and simple. They are.

Correction: Were.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Joespaniel...you say "We are just Americans"...but you are in Prussia!

 

[Simon Darkshade]

This type of idiotic conspiracy theory has been refuted countless times before, and they even get more bizarre than this, with the US intervention being ascribed to the possession by the Bush clan of the spear that pierced the side of Christ.
The trick to these situations is to employ Occam's Razor, and cut away the bull.
What is the simplest answer?
The US led coalition is there to punish, kill and remove the haven of the terrorists who assaulted America killing thousands of innocent civilians in order to try and bring about their own sick and twisted world order.
The Taliban did not give them up, but supported them. The Taliban regime was destroyed, and the remnants of it and Al- Qaeda are on the run big time.
The country is going to be rebuilt, and helped to make its way into the international community.

As to oil, the full theory is that "they" (you know, the shadowy evil dudes who secretly run the world from their undeground lair) want to run a pipeline through Afghanistan because of oil and natural gas deposits in the ex Soviet Central Asian republics, namely Kazakhstan, Tadjikistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekhistan.

Baku is on the OTHER darn side of the Caspian, and has been a producer of oil for many years. This is the oil Hitler was headed for, so it is not new news, and does not require a pipeline through Afghanistan

The Soviet intervention was done for the reasons of propping up a puppet regime, so that extremist elements would not get another foothold on the Soviet border, and further destabilise the Central Asian Republics.

Joe, you are right on the money with everything you say. It sums up the situation accurately and succintly, as usual

If Richard III is like General Jack D Ripper for a rather soft refutation of this laughable array of clap trap, then call me your worst nightmare
The enemy was defeated, and the rest of them will be hunted down and killed like the dogs they are, with no mercy or crying about human rights.
The scum made a fatal miscalculation on the resolve, thought processes, and reaction of their chosen foe.
This is not about oil, it is about physically destroying every last one of these pathetic oxygen thieves, and making sure they never use that country as a bases again. It doesn't stop there. Terror is no longer a safe occupation.

It may come as a shock to those who espouse what Richard called so well "I..S. / SWP colouring-book trotskyist crap", but not all of the motives of the US and its fascist, imperialist capitalist lackies are
ulterior

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by Benz
Richard III,

You are funny you know? You look like the General of the US-air force into the movie Doctor StrangeLove (British movie). A very good movie that reflects all the paranoïa about the cold war.

Yes, I've seen it many times. And I've got some bad news: it's aan AMERICAN movie. And worse news, not only did I live through several years of the Cold War, I also spent six months of my life protesting the Gulf War, and in the same circumstances I would do it again, even in hindsight, since I beleived the war was being fought for the wrong motives, and wars fought for the wrong motive (in this case, to "liberate the emirate") produce the wrong result (in this case, a destabilized region with Saddam still in power).

I'm as objective as they come. So, instead of making inaccurate attacks suggesting I'm some kind of fanatic (civ excepted), why don't you try to be a little more critical about the stuff you see on TV? I've been following Afghanistan's problems for years, angry that there seemed to be no way to cut out the Taliban short of donating to Masood or something. So I'm not coming at this from out of the blue; your rendition of the "Facts" is just plain WRONG.

I know opponents of the Gulf War who, after the Clinton/Blair bombing raids started, said it was part of the worldwide conspiracy to keep oil prices high. I couldn't help but chuckle, since the same people stood beside me in 1991 and claimed it was all to keep oil prices low. Which is it?

I know opponents of the Kosovo war who insisted that it was all fought over some mineral deposits and access to the impoverished Serbian market.

It's like the stalinists in 1941; before the invasion of Russia, the world war was an imperialist game; after the invasion, it was a crusade against fascism. Before the Americans picked a side in the Afghan civil war, you couldn't find a single leftist would didn't beleive that the Taliban needed to be crushed and turfed. But the moment the Americans agreed to do it, suddenly the Taliban are manipulated, or misunderstood, or boo hoo hoo.

So ask yourself and your brain a question: why is it that every war is an American economic plot? Why is it that "social critics" who beleive that the world is so much better than America are always to first to insist that any action is somehow entirely America's doing as though no country or person could act without recieiving a plan from the US first?

It's time Canadians - and Quebecers - put an end to this weak bigotry and started to practice what we preach by actually recognizing that the US is not the only country that plots and plans in the world, and most of them that do, the Taliban among them, can be much, much worse than the United States will ever be.

R.III

 

[Benz]

Don't get me wrong Richard III, I fully support the attack against Talibans.

Canada is not any better, it cause less dammage only because it is weaker. Neverthenless, I feel very shameful about our gov't and its decision to NOT enter into the Talisman's business. This Canadian company is sponserising terrorists to keep the Soudan into the trouble. It is easier this way to have a safe petrol exploitation on the shore.

Well, I will certainly not defend non-realistic conspiracies. If one of the things I said is wrong, I hope to have another trustable information to correct it. I admit that some silly paranos go too far as well as those that said communism is led by Satan.

"always to first to insist that any action is somehow entirely America's doing as though no country or person could act without recieiving a plan from the US first? "

It is often the opposite. The US do want a say and they insist very strongly. When you are the strongest of the earth, the others better listen carefully.

If my facts are wrong... then it should be easy for you to show me the truth, isn't it? The information I will provide, I heard of them either on the news here and in Europe and you can find it out on the web.

-Amid Karzaï was in charge of the study about the pipeline in Afghanistan for Unocal.

-Talibans were sponsored by both Pakistan and USA. Also, some of their weapons came from the CIA.

-Bush is one of the shareholder of BP and Arbusto. He co-founded Arbusto with the brother of Osama Bin Laden. (The two brothers were not in good terms, just in case you think I'm trying to say that Osama and George are watching footbal at the TV eat together and eating Bretzels).

-The US deal often with terrorists and it turn out often against them. Such as the support of Iran against Irak in the begining. Then the support of Irak against Iran until Irak invade Koweit. The Moudjahidins... then the Talibans... until the Talibans supported Bin Laden. Etc... it is why I can't swallow the words of George Bush when he says "You are with us or with them". No, you don't understand goofy Bush, you were with them and NOW, you are with us fighting for freedom.

-The USA want a path thru Afghanistan for a pipeline.

I think it is enough for now.

By the way, I thought Doctor StrangeLove was British because it was written at the generic. Maybe the British did only participated? I'll check out later.

 

[Richard III]

Benz, I want to come back to this when I have more time, but you did say "all the Americans had in mind was the pipeline."

This does sort of confer on the US a single-minded motive, no? This is, over all, the chief problem I have with what you're saying.

I think you should also consider the radical possibility that Afghanis want the pipeline as well.

R.III

 

[Warlord Sam]

First off, it might interest all to know that Benz's described "yes man" is not quite saying Yes to America... instead, he's allying himself, and the new Afghanistan government with China, America's chief competitor. So Benz... way to go, you sure as hell called this one.

And I quote:
"HAMID KARZAI, the interim Afghan leader, visited Beijing yesterday to forge a new alliance with China that is likely to limit Western influence in Afghanistan."

Read about it for yourself at: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-2002039683,00.html

And one more thing, I doubt America in the '80s knew much about the way the Taliban treated its women... these stories only came about after reporters flocked to Afghanistan during the War on Terrorism.

"If you aren't going to post the truth, don't post anything at all", as my moderator used to say.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by Warlord Sam
And one more thing, I doubt America in the '80s knew much about the way the Taliban treated its women... these stories only came about after reporters flocked to Afghanistan during the War on Terrorism.

Shldn't that be "America in the 90s"? The Taliban only came to power in the 90s....

 

[Knowltok]

I wonder if in Britain in the 1770's there was an outcry against the Monarchy for using the help of George Washington in the French and Indian war? Did the public castigate the government for ever supporting this miscreant rebel? Or did they realize that there was no way of knowing in the 60's what GW might be doing in the turbulant 70's? A thought to ponder...

 

[Benz]

"And one more thing, I doubt America in the '80s knew much about the way the Taliban treated its women... "

Knight-dragon is right, it is in the 90's.

Perhaps I should recall you what you wrote within the same post?

["If you aren't going to post the truth, don't post anything at all", as my moderator used to say.]

hmmm!

What you said is partly true. USA was not aware what the Taliban were. Neither that their own CIA financed the Taliban. When you are listening at crap like CNN and stuff like that, you don't know much about what is going on this world. We are always astonished to see how much americans know so little of the outter USA. It is sad and scary. USA IS the strongest country in this world and the americans do not much about what their gov't is doing to others.

"stories only came about after reporters flocked to Afghanistan during the War on Terroris."

In USA, yes, maybe! But not outside of the USA. There was a huge international feminist movement for the support of the Afghan women. Many of the supporters were american women as well. It is something known for the last 10 years.