AI Fix In Expansions?

[AntSou]

My comment was to the OP actually giving him an answer. The majority of you can still hang on to this fairy tale that AI changes will be made, it's pretty obvious that they won't be.

AI changes have been made, including in yesterday's patch, so your comment is factually false.

Because AI changes have been made, it is reasonable to expect changes will continue to be made. We'll have to wait and see how much is addressed.

Well you enjoy your sims Empire with pretty buildings then.

I've written several posts regarding how I feel the AI is still deficient and what I wish to see improved in the future. None of that is incompatible with enjoying the game's art.

 

[Fampat]

Maybe at least hope for more possibilities/freedom in regard of what is possible to mod.
It would be a massive pro if we at least are able to have some more options on changing the descision-making logic of the AI, i guess it would be possible to make the AI processes available like other methods/functions we can use right now.

This would be very helpful, also i would think it would be a big benefit for a game to allow the pleople who dont want to get paid to improve an aspect no shareholder may feel the need to invest to, the AI

 

[Casworon]

I agree completely. Even if there isn't a full DLL release, if just the AI is opened up to us I can foresee Civ VI becoming another 4x masterpiece.

The ball is entirely in Firaxis's and 2K's court.

If only the Civ community could be as brutal as the DOOM community with their latest patch release, we might be able to show how important AI modding access is to us and get some resources dedicated too it. Sadly I feel we are far too sensible, understanding and lacking in revolutionary spirit

 

[AriochIV]

Noone ever said that, its plain and simple false.
Right now there are "no plans" to release it, just because some peoples dont want to wait any longer, which is totaly fine and understandable, it doesnt mean it will not be released.

On the contrary, that's exactly what it means.

 

[Atlas627]

I am massively less hopeful than you. I don't think the DLL is going to come. I remember in a presentation Soren Johnson, the lead designer of Civ IV, who was one of the main champion's behind releasing that game's DLL, mentioned that there was internal and publisher push-back to releasing the DLL even then. When the series was no where near as popular and worth as much money as it is now.

The game industry is now much larger, worth much more money, and is increasingly moving towards publisher friendly anti-consumer practices.

All these things and the fact they used the words 'have no current plans', which in my mind is PR talk for not going to happen, make me think that as the Civ series has gotten much more popular and successful, that DLL releases for it are simply a thing of the past. Either due to internal or publisher pressure.

It's very sad for a small subset of fanatical players like us. But we still have Civ IV and Civ V to fall back on, which i think at this point will remain my favorite games of all time because of the simply amazing mods available for them which turn them into masterpieces (Honorable mention being the Endless Legend community patch, which turns that into another 4x masterpiece in my mind). A level Civ VI will simply never reach due to the realities of modern game development.

I agree with your analysis here, except for this part:

'have no current plans', which in my mind is PR talk for not going to happen

I have personally used this exact PR line for many things, so long as those things include *not having plans at the current moment*. As long as the project has not made an active decision yes or no, I am willing to use this line. It means "I have no news to report, but I am telling you that there is no news so you don't think there is secret news". Your interpretation is exactly what this type of statement is supposed to prevent. I understand not taking the statement at face value, but I think if they had decided not to release it but were afraid of saying so, they would instead decline to answer the question or would tell the interviewer to not even ask in the first place. PR generally avoids outright lying because it will result in a greater backlash than just stating things outright, though they are happy to sugarcoat. I would only use "No current plans" as sugarcoating if the project was disinclined to do something, but had not actively ruled it out. So long as they are still disinclined to do it, they will probably not put in the effort to rule it out, which is why I think your analysis is still appropriate otherwise.

 

[oSiyeza]

On the contrary, that's exactly what it means.

I think the exact meaning is. We will not release it unless we change our mind in the future.
Which means is not impossible but certainly not likely.

 

[AriochIV]

The quote from Strenger is "At this time we don’t have plans to release the DLL source code."

Now, you can parse that any way you like, but no amount of mental gymnastics can make it come out "yes, we are going to release the DLL source code."

 

[Atlas627]

It is definitely not a certain 'yes', true. People should stop stating that it is a certain 'no', though. At the very least, provide the accurate quote and then state that, due to many contextual reasons, it is being interpreted as a 'no'.

 

[Kwami]

The quote from Strenger is "At this time we don’t have plans to release the DLL source code."

Now, you can parse that any way you like, but no amount of mental gymnastics can make it come out "yes, we are going to release the DLL source code."

Sure, but it also doesn't mean, "No, we'll never release the DLL." To pretend that it does say that is dishonest.

There's every chance that Firaxis will release the DLL at some future time, probably when they're done with new content. That's different from previous Civ games, but it's still better than what you get from almost any other studio.

 

[Casworon]

Sure, but it also doesn't mean, "No, we'll never release the DLL." To pretend that it does say that is dishonest.

There's every chance that Firaxis will release the DLL at some future time, probably when they're done with new content. That's different from previous Civ games, but it's still better than what you get from almost any other studio.

Okay even if we don't see it as a definite no. The fact that releasing DLL is such a rarity to begin with, and add that too the general trajectory of the game's industry, makes me feel that i am certain enough to bet money on it being a No. It's certainly a possibility because of how nervous i am around this and how much of a big deal it would be to players such as me, that i am going to interpret anything other than a definite yes as an effective no.

It's such zero-one thing. Am i going to still be playing this game in five to ten years time and see it as one of my favorite games. With a DLL release? Yes. Without one? No. It's funny, i was always in the camp that believed it would come eventually because of the precedent of them doing the same with Civ IV and Civ V. But at this point I've completely given up hope.

But as i said before, there are plenty of other 4x game's that have opened up too modding and they aren't going anywhere. It's just disappointing that this might be where i drop off in terms of keeping up with the latest Civ games.

It's also important to note that we never got a DLL for Beyond Earth. As someone who loves Alpha Centuri and much prefers it's more hard sci-fi take to 4x (making much more sense to me with the randomly generated map mechanic compared too historical)(hard sci-fi having atleast some connection to reality rather than the soft sci-fi that make up all space 4x's). This is also deeply saddening. Imagining a community made Alpha Centuri with decent AI made with beyond earth as the base is the thing of dreams.

 

[AriochIV]

"We might release it sometime in the very distant future" doesn't do us any good.

 

[Atlas627]

People can determine whether the information is helpful to themselves. Just give them the accurate information instead of editorializing it!

 

[yung.carl.jung]

There's every chance that Firaxis will release the DLL at some future time, probably when they're done with new content.

So that is in a year, earliest. Probably later. And it will obviously take some time to take apart the code and make a working AI modification. It'll probably be done by the time the Civ 7 subscriptions roll around, I reckon. If we ever get it, that is

 

[Kwami]

So that is in a year, earliest. Probably later. And it will obviously take some time to take apart the code and make a working AI modification. It'll probably be done by the time the Civ 7 subscriptions roll around, I reckon. If we ever get it, that is

I'm sure that Firaxis is totally fine with you moving to Civ VII.

 

[Gedemon]

I have personally used this exact PR line for many things, so long as those things include *not having plans at the current moment*. As long as the project has not made an active decision yes or no, I am willing to use this line. It means "I have no news to report, but I am telling you that there is no news so you don't think there is secret news". Your interpretation is exactly what this type of statement is supposed to prevent. I understand not taking the statement at face value, but I think if they had decided not to release it but were afraid of saying so, they would instead decline to answer the question or would tell the interviewer to not even ask in the first place. PR generally avoids outright lying because it will result in a greater backlash than just stating things outright, though they are happy to sugarcoat. I would only use "No current plans" as sugarcoating if the project was disinclined to do something, but had not actively ruled it out. So long as they are still disinclined to do it, they will probably not put in the effort to rule it out, which is why I think your analysis is still appropriate otherwise.

But the thing is that they've changed from "we can't say anything at this time" to "at this time there is no plan".

I can only interpret it as a "maybe" changing to "unlikely". And he knew that question was coming, they were aware of the previous article from PCGameN.

And frankly, I'm glad Anton had given that answer instead of another "maybe" while knowing himself it's unlikely, I can move on something else, thanks.

So that is in a year, earliest. Probably later. And it will obviously take some time to take apart the code and make a working AI modification. It'll probably be done by the time the Civ 7 subscriptions roll around, I reckon. If we ever get it, that is

Yep that's part of the issue, at best it will be too late.

 

[Atlas627]

But the thing is that they've changed from "we can't say anything at this time" to "at this time there is no plan".

I can only interpret it as a "maybe" changing to "unlikely". And he knew that question was coming, they were aware of the previous article from PCGameN.

And frankly, I'm glad Anton had given that answer instead of another "maybe" while knowing himself it's unlikely, I can move on something else, thanks.

I think that is a reasonable interpretation, though it is also possible that in the former case they were actively thinking about it and then decided to hold off on a decision, or that he didn't know what he was allowed to say the first time (or had been prohibited from saying anything) but got confirmation with PR that he was at least allowed to say "we have no plan right now" before the latter case. Sometimes companies don't want to admit they have no plan because it can result in backlash, as it appears to be doing on these forums.

 

[Gedemon]

Sometimes companies don't want to admit they have no plan because it can result in backlash, as it appears to be doing on these forums.

And they know that too, which is also pointing in a slow preparation for a definitive "no", to prevent a bigger backlash later, just when they may want to start building hype on a new project and sell it with some marketing like "as usual a big emphasis on modding".

 

[yung.carl.jung]

sell it with some marketing like "as usual a big emphasis on modding".

yeah, that just leaves me feeling insulted as a customer/supporter.

 

[Loderingo]

The AI was really bad at launch and like a lot of players I stopped playing for a while. It is slowly getting better and is a great improvement on launch.

I would say the AI's weaknesses now are more strategic than tactical:

1) It is too willing to constantly auto renew friendships and alliances even when it is against its interests
2) Warmonger civs care too much about grievances
3) The AI doesn't focus enough on its victory type e.g. it spends too much effort on competitions when it is not going for DV

 

[Infixo]

The AI was really bad at launch and like a lot of players I stopped playing for a while. It is slowly getting better and is a great improvement on launch.

Lol I see this sentiment a lot... AI was bad, now is getting better (after 3 years!), let’s praise the devs
Stop doing that. You just give an excuse for devs to release a low quality product, wrapped in a shiny paper (graphics).
It will be even worse with Civ7 because we are allowing that.
This is a leading developer of 4X games charging us a full, triple-A price for a game and expansions. The expectations bar should be much higher than what they give us.