ALC 15 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Mehmed

[forgedplayer]

I'm really looking foirward to this ALC. I've played as Memhed and I know I have not leveraged this nearly as well as I should have. He also seems to pop up quite frequestly in the ALC's so it will be fun to play from his side instead of against him for once.

 

[KMadCandy]

the main thing: if you think of it, i'd love a bit of detail about where/why you choose to draft from most effectively. i'm terrible at it, and am willing to be a great general that others would benefit from that too but aren't selfish enough to ask so blatantly

i definitely want to see this ALC! i played mehmed only once. it was a gauntlet for HoF, had to win by time so i knew it would be long one and i'd have a big empire, so i picked mehmed for his traits, knowing his UU and UB were cool too. it was a medieval starting era (my first). he rocked for that. hardcore. i didn't finish the game, due to lack of skill and excess boredom on my part, no fault of mehmed's. i was quite impressed with him tho. hammam is lovely, and i started with the tech for it, the UU is strong, and the traits are spiffy for the right type of game. i'm quite interested in planning out the tech path from the start, since i didn't begin at square one.

i don't usually bother with musketmen much, often don't make any, just grens. those janissaries tho, they wanted to kill my neighbors, and they made the killing easy, and i'm generally a builder mind you!

i'm not a natural whipper either, and i completely suck at drafting, but the hammam helped me learn just how great those civics can be late game. currently i'm gandhi and using spiritual to go to slavery to whip bodies later than i ever have before. playing mehmed was educational for me even without S to watch as an example and the panel of advisors here to read. i expect to learn tons

 

[bardolph]

Starting Techs (Agriculture + Wheel) means you can easily start with Animal Husbandry and get Chariots running super-fast.

The +2 you get from the Hammam will balance the +2 you get from Expansive. That plus the Organized trait really encourages REX at/before Code of Laws (b/c of cheap courthouses), then growing the cities to super size. This means building a fair number of farms, to get your population up quickly. The 50% civic cost from Organized is best exploited when running high population and expensive civics (Caste System, Organized Religion, and Bureaucracy)

Hereditary Rule will be key to getting super-sized cities up and running, though Representation + Caste System might be the best way to exploit your huge population. In any case, you'll want to exercise some restraint with the in mid-game, so you can get big population numbers.

Tech-wise, you have a tough choice at Liberalism. You can grab Nationalism for drafting, then research Gunpowder manually. That will allow you to get massive #'s of Janissaries (and your Globe Theater city can draft them w/o unhappiness).

However, you may consider grabbing Gunpowder instead, and just building your Janissaries the old-fashioned way. That would allow you to keep running the reduced-priced Bureaucracy civic, or (even more interesting) Vassalage.

Can you win a conquest victory with Janissaries? That would be interesting: beeline to Gunpowder, build Janissaries, conquer the world! In this case, you wouldn't need Liberalism at all, and Vassalage would probably prove more valuable than Bureaucracy for that final push.

 

[Chrispy]

Nothing about Mehmed speaks to any advantages from religion. He strikes me as one of those leaders with whom you're better off letting religions spread to you, then converting to whichever one will give you the most diplomatic benefit.

Unless I start with Mysticism I don't like to chase religions. I find they're too much work to spread; I'd rather build Swordsmen than Missionaries. Later religions just get you in hot water with those who founded the earlier ones. The only time I don't care about that is when I play as Rome, because I'm going to crush the heathens beneath my Praets' hobnailed caligae before long.

Is it a question of pursuing early religion or a question of bypassing the religious pathway? Avoiding it seems like a questionable strategy for a beeline to Gunpowder given that Priesthood and Writing open up CoL.

I've played Mehmed quite a few times and I find my most effective beelines have involved building Stonehenge to generate a Prophet to bulb Theology. Theology->Paper->Education->Gunpowder. While Stonehenge builds the Prophet, I research up to Writing and through Monotheism.

You could also use Oracle to get Theology (or CoL) as part of the beeline and get a mid-level religion.

If you bypass Priesthood, you have to go from Writing (needed for every beeline) to Math->Currency->CoL->CS to get to Paper. Currency is useful, but it's not the fastest beeline. I think it's faster to at least go Myst->Med->Priest while researching to Writing (only need Pottery, but you also NEED other basic techs) and then to Math + CoL -> CS.

For a CoL->CS beeline, it's Priesthood OR Currency (or Feudalism, but at that point you can go South via Machinery and Guilds to Gunpowder.)

 

[Sisiutil]

Is it a question of pursuing early religion or a question of bypassing the religious pathway? Avoiding it seems like a questionable strategy for a beeline to Gunpowder given that Priesthood and Writing open up CoL.

I've played Mehmed quite a few times and I find my most effective beelines have involved building Stonehenge to generate a Prophet to bulb Theology. Theology->Paper->Education->Gunpowder. While Stonehenge builds the Prophet, I research up to Writing and through Monotheism.

You could also use Oracle to get Theology (or CoL) as part of the beeline and get a mid-level religion.

If you bypass Priesthood, you have to go from Writing (needed for every beeline) to Math->Currency->CoL->CS to get to Paper. Currency is useful, but it's not the fastest beeline. I think it's faster to at least go Myst->Med->Priest while researching to Writing (only need Pottery, but you also NEED other basic techs) and then to Math + CoL -> CS.

For a CoL->CS beeline, it's Priesthood OR Currency (or Feudalism, but at that point you can go South via Machinery and Guilds to Gunpowder.)

Interesting. If I go this route, it kind of takes me full circle. For the first few ALCs, I'd commonly pick up BW then go through the early religion path (Mysticism -> Medi/Poly -> Priesthood) and build both Stonehenge and the Oracle along the way. I've been eschewing that path and the early wonders lately, but this strat would--initially at least--put me right back where I started.

I could also see this working with the strats that carl corey and snaatys were suggesting: basically, playing builder with around 6 cities until the Gunpowder bee-line is complete, then take over the world with Catapults and Janissaries.

It would be nice to have marble near the start if we go this route, to help with the Oracle. Or just a whole lotta forests. Or both.

 

[Welnic]

I came up with Mehmed on a random leader standard size fractal map at prince difficulty recently. I was all excited to beeline to gunpowder so I could beat up on ancient units, but I ended up all alone on an island. I ended up winning the space race without ever being at war with anyone, I can't remember the last time I didn't do any fighting.

So if you want a check to make sure that you are not isolated to ensure UU use I can do that.

 

[bardolph]

Is it a question of pursuing early religion or a question of bypassing the religious pathway? Avoiding it seems like a questionable strategy for a beeline to Gunpowder given that Priesthood and Writing open up CoL.

I've played Mehmed quite a few times and I find my most effective beelines have involved building Stonehenge to generate a Prophet to bulb Theology. Theology->Paper->Education->Gunpowder. While Stonehenge builds the Prophet, I research up to Writing and through Monotheism.

You could also use Oracle to get Theology (or CoL) as part of the beeline and get a mid-level religion.

If you bypass Priesthood, you have to go from Writing (needed for every beeline) to Math->Currency->CoL->CS to get to Paper. Currency is useful, but it's not the fastest beeline. I think it's faster to at least go Myst->Med->Priest while researching to Writing (only need Pottery, but you also NEED other basic techs) and then to Math + CoL -> CS.

For a CoL->CS beeline, it's Priesthood OR Currency (or Feudalism, but at that point you can go South via Machinery and Guilds to Gunpowder.)

Good recommendations. The Theology -> Paper route looks really good, and gives an extra shot at picking up a religion (since Hinduism/Buddhism are both long shots without starting Mysticism). If we have horses, then going Guilds -> Gunpowder, picking up Feudalism along the way, would be good.

If we're planning a large offensive at Gunpowder with Janissaries and siege, then I'd seriously consider Vassalage over Bureaucracy. Free unit maintenance + free XP easily balances out the + we'd get from Bureaucracy.

 

[Chrispy]

The link below is the Gunpowder beeline thread that was spawned from aelf's UU Guide. There is a lot of talk about the southern Guilds route vs. the northern Education route, but less talk about which route to Education is best.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4839129

Also note that beelining through Civil Service and getting Math allows Mehmed to build his UB.

 

[Ajidica]

Having played as Mehmed on noble you need to know what improvments to put where to maximize your big cities. Lots of big impressive cities for fremarket, the Great Lighthouse was useful. Jannisaries in and of them selves wont win a war. you need knights and pikes and seige weapontry. Dont get boged down at one city. Cant break a city? cut roads and move on placing one gaurd unit nearby. Get early techs but dont beline to jannisaries. go gunpowder tech, useful tech, gunpowder tech, and so on.

 

[kniteowl]

I don't know why people want to ignore Meditation and Philosophy when beelining through CS towards GunP, You realize that Philosophy holds the Pacifism Civic for 100% increase in GPP right?

What I generally do is try the timing of my 1st GS generation with the completion of researching CS so i can light-bulb Philosophy and switch my civics to Pacifism and Bureaucracy.

I still don't know why people want to go through the Theology path to Paper, CS has Bureaucracy... you know +50% towards commerce with will help you research GunP quicker, not to mention the +50% to hammers in your Capital and will help you in the longterm as well.

Theology maybe cheaper Breaker wise, But I believe if you go though CS, Bureaucracy will make up with the extra breakers.

Once you reach to Nationalism, Gunpowder and Theology. Switch your Civics to Nationhood and Theocracy. Try to build Barracks and theaters in all cities before switching to your war civics.

Edit: btw you also require Philosophy to research Liberalism, you can't do a Liberalism Beeline without Philosphy

 

[Morgrad]

Yaaaaaaaaaaay! Mehmed!

I always play on a random leader, and though I won't even pretend to be anywhere near as skilled as many on these boards, my three highest scores are with Mehmed.

Although I typically ignore Mehmed's UU, his traits and UB scream one thing to me: a large, productive population. This can be used a number of different ways, of course, but he is absolutely killer at economy - even with no economy traits.

For a CE you can work more cottages than anyone, and for a SE he can crank out merchants, scientists, or whatever you like.

He can get a CE up and running blazingly fast. I'm definately in the Pottery first crowd. Get your workers building cottages and your granaries in - whip off excess population when needed to stay under health/happy caps, but otherwise keep your cities at maximum viable population. Expand as fast as your economy can handle (which will be faster than you'd think if you cottage early and often), crank out some axes and obliterate a neighbor or two to kill of some competition, get some religion/wonders, and get more territory for more cottages.

Out-tech everyone and run away to a Space Race or Diplomatic victory. If you're ahead enough in tech, you can always have the next-best unit before everyone else. With enough high-tech units to prevent being attacked, have as many cities as possible cranking out more economy - science and if/when needed, wealth.

As far as the UU goes, I'll leave that to others. They're nice units for a *very* small window, but I'm unimpressed by them.

 

[vormuir]

Here's a stupid question: what upgrades to Musketmen?

I use them so rarely that I don't even know.

Can you get some CR units from early warring, then turn them into Janissaries? Because that would rock.


Waldo

 

[kniteowl]

Here's a stupid question: what upgrades to Musketmen?

I use them so rarely that I don't even know.

Can you get some CR units from early warring, then turn them into Janissaries? Because that would rock.


Waldo

Nothing upgrades to Musketman, you have to build them from scratch or draft them, Musketman can only upgrade to Rifleman and cannot upgrade to Grenadiers

 

[oyzar]

kniteowl the idea is that you research gunpowder before liberalism then use liberalism to pop nationalism. If you do research philosophy it would mean you need another GS. I was thinking along the line of having 3 GS by the time you are done researching CS as done in this thread for example: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=214526 . It would of course require you to run a very high amount of GS in the early game(SE?) You arent philosophical though so it might be out of the window though i kinda doubt it is impossible to generate 3 GS by the time you get to CS. Reaerch path with this would be something like early worker techs -> Alph -> lit -> construction/col and possilby get/trade for monarchy/currency depending on your position while you generate 3 GS by the time CS is done to lightbulb paper and double education in one go so you can start straight on gunpowder with the help of burecracy. After gunpowder you pick up meditation, and your GS generating engine havent disapeared so you can probably bulb philosophy then later liberalism(either by not havig fishing or by researching IW/MC/Sailing/Calendar or get them through trades). While your researching COL/CS/Gunpowder you get your orginal cities up and going(by the help of hamman?) and start prebuilding some cats/get up HE/Globe(drafting!!) to get your empire ready to spew out jannisarries. It will likely take a long time before your opponents get anything but longbowmen. In this aproach it is proably preferable to eliminate opponents sice it would allow you to draft from most of their cities since they will be 100% of your culture to imeadiaty contribute to your army.

By this aproach you will likely have jannisarries by the time or even before you normaly have macemen.

 

[axident]

Nothing upgrades to Musketman, you have to build them from scratch or draft them, Musketman can only upgrade to Rifleman and cannot upgrade to Grenadiers

In other words they are pretty bad "tweener" units; you can't even upgrade CR III promoted units to muskets while you're waiting for chemistry to upgrade muskets to grens. I understand that this being a ALC there might be more emphasis on getting the UU faster than normal and drafting them, but a normal game with normal muskets?

 

[Killroyan]

Ok, Sisiutil, I know you are waiting on this one. As I said in almost all other ALC previews, enough talking, lets get the show on the road and show us the starting position. Beeline to Janissaries and kick some behind.

 

[vormuir]

"I understand that this being a ALC there might be more emphasis on getting the UU faster than normal and drafting them, but a normal game with normal muskets?"

It's a good UU, though. 25% vs. melee, cavalry and archery units means it's better in combat than a knight (11.25 vs. 10) and cheaper (80 hammers vs. 90). They're almost as good as grenadiers! As long as you're facing enemies at the macemen - crossbowmen - longbows - knights level of technology, janissaries kick ass.

As everyone has pointed out already, the problem is that they become useless once other gunpowder units show up in force. And I'm pretty sure they can't gain CR promotions, so you can't use them to build a force of city killer CR units.

So they're not OMG-fantastic UUs like praets or (vanilla) cossacks. But they're well worth beeing to gunpowder for.


Waldo

 

[kniteowl]

In other words they are pretty bad "tweener" units; you can't even upgrade CR III promoted units to muskets while you're waiting for chemistry to upgrade muskets to grens. I understand that this being a ALC there might be more emphasis on getting the UU faster than normal and drafting them, but a normal game with normal muskets?

Well I've seen high level players, when their Spiritual switch to nationhood and draft their boarder cities for Muskets to defend their recently captured cities so their SODs can going a conquering else where.

oyzar : Light-bulbing Paper isn't necessary, nice but not needed it is a relatively cheap tech, cheaper the CS, you can research it faster then CS especially after switching to Bureaucracy. You don't need 3 GS, 1 for Philosophy and 1 for education and research the later part of education is all you really need. Assuming if you do need 3 GS, the point of picking up Philosophy is for the Pacifism Civic, I'm assuming we're not going for any major wars until our UU so with Pacifism getting those GS are a lot easier.

This is what'd I'd do with my 1st 3 GS instead of using all of them to light-bulb Paper and Education, I'd light-bulb Philosophy, and Either Building an Academy and light-bulb Education, or the other way around depending on my tech situation.

Remember we're playing on Monarch, there's a good chance that some tech whore AI like Mansa may get to Liberalism before we do, so getting Philosophy and Liberalism ASAP maybe the better choice, instead of delaying it for Gunpowder.

 

[oyzar]

The point was to get to gunpowder the fastest possibilty. I havent realy havent faced any serious competion for liberalism on eproer yet. The monarch AI is even worse at getting to liberalism. If you have your economy properly set up i doubt you'll miss it especially if you also ligtbulb philosophy(and maybe part of lib itself). It is allways a possibility of parlty bulbing CS with a GP(assuming you dont have monarchy) though IMO the COL -> CS route is just better than the relgious version(you are gonna need courhouses in your conquered cities + they are cheap so you might as well get them up in your initial cities and burecraccy and chain irrigation are nice as well. It also enables caste system which will be crucial if your trying to generate the massive amount of GS this early as i sugest. The techs you should have that are not on a strict beeline is Construction litterature(GL!) and drama + posibly traded techs like currency/monarchy/calendar/metal casting/monotheism.

I know it isnt neccisarrily best to bulb paper but this is ALC's. It is ment to explore uniqe units and traits of different leaders. Getting to jannisarries as fast as possible might be a vital part of this as mehemed. Only way to effectiuvly bulb gunpowder is to not research pottery and thats not an option since we are gonna use cheap grannraies. Since otherwise you need machinery. Liberalism is before machinery though.

 

[oyzar]

Another advantage of running a SE style economy with loads of GS so you can lightbulb your way to your UU is that you get loads of food to swich into smash mode as you can easily whip jannisaries for both 2 and 3(! just invest under 20 hammers in the unit allready, that is in a city without HE) pop giving you 3 pop -> 90 hammers for just 1 unhappy. It will also let your cities recover faster from drafting. Of course you should have some regular production cities though this would make you able to assemble an army very quickly from even your non-prodcution focused cities.