ALC 15 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Mehmed

[cabert]

IMHO the fastest way to gunpowder is through :
oracling theology, researching paper, double lightbulbing education, researching gunpowder.
It's very fast, and requires only 2 GS. If you run 2 scientists in your oracle city, you have 2/3 odds of a scientist. If you run 2 scientists in another city, you have 100% odds for the first and second one provided you :
- start running the scientists before finishing the oracle (1 turn is enough)
- have no other source of GPs in the oracle city.
If you are late for the second scientist, it may be worth running a priest or engineer or artist ... for a few turns in the library city. The few % of artist are low enough a risk.

 

[oyzar]

your way would probably leave you without math/drama/CS etc though. You would have loads of religions instead...

 

[cabert]

your way would probably leave you without math/drama/CS etc though. You would have loads of religions instead...

theology is tradable for maths easily!
CS would be missing and that's not good

 

[r_rolo1]

CS would be missing and that's not good

That is a big problem with the route proposed above. Because we are thinking in a small-medium size empire until our UU's feet crush our enemies skulls , beaurucracy is a must have, and CS is not the kind of tech that the AI trades with ease ( you know: Macemen; not even the AI is so stupid ). Drama and maths are more easably tradable, but...
I'm not sure, but following the Currency -> CoL -> CS -> Paper path may be a safer move, but not necessarly the best.

Other issue: When to use the ? To use the UB to his full potencial, he need to have decent size cities ( and for the draft too ). In my point of view, that limits strongly the use of the whip in the early game, and maybe HR-powered big cites and a SE may be the best option. In short words: to or not to ?, that is the question.

 

[cabert]

That is a big problem with the route proposed above. Because we are thinking in a small-medium size empire until our UU's feet crush our enemies skulls , beaurucracy is a must have, and CS is not the kind of tech that the AI trades with ease ( you know: Macemen; not even the AI is so stupid ). Drama and maths are more easably tradable, but...
I'm not sure, but following the Currency -> CoL -> CS -> Paper path may be a safer move, but not necessarly the best.

Other issue: When to use the ? To use the UB to his full potencial, he need to have decent size cities ( and for the draft too ). In my point of view, that limits strongly the use of the whip in the early game, and maybe HR-powered big cites and a SE may be the best option. In short words: to or not to ?, that is the question.

to whip or not whip isn't something you can decide without map
how are you going to build anything in a city with 17 tiles of water, including 2 fishes, 2 clams and 1 crab?
OTOH why would you whip if you are on a highlands map?

 

[r_rolo1]

to whip or not whip isn't something you can decide without map
how are you going to build anything in a city with 17 tiles of water, including 2 fishes, 2 clams and 1 crab?
OTOH why would you whip if you are on a highlands map?

I know that ,cabert . My question was about the general feeling about it ( when do you play Monty, what do you think? Sacrifial altar, then , isn't it?) .I asked that because I saw in this thread 2 suggestions: heavy whipping and HR-powered big cities with SE, and wanted to know the general feeling about those options. For that you don't need to see the map.

 

[cabert]

I know that ,cabert . My question was about the general feeling about it ( when do you play Monty, what do you think? Sacrifial altar, then , isn't it?) .I asked that because I saw in this thread 2 suggestions: heavy whipping and HR-powered big cities with SE, and wanted to know the general feeling about those options. For that you don't need to see the map.

If you want to draft janissaries, you need at least size 6 cities.
HR powered? doesn't seem necessary.
IMHO it would be a lot better to have 8 to 10 size 6 cities than 3 or 4 size 12 cities.
A size 6 city can draft 1 janissary for 1 pop, and whip a catapult for 2 pop, making it a size 3 city, which will grow just in time to be whipped and drafted again .
The fastest way to get the dual scientists for education, would be to plant a high food city, grow to size 6, whip a library, assign 2 scientists, found another high food city, grow to size 6, whip a library, assign 2 scientists.
This way, the oracle doesn't cause any problem, you can have both GS close one to the other, and you can grow them back to size 6 in time for being drafted.

I don't think avoiding the whip would be beneficial.
In fact, I would whip granaries in those high food cities before the library (faster growth to size 6!).

 

[a0161613]

to whip or not whip isn't something you can decide without map

Honestly, i think Sisuitil should include the starting position in these pregame threads.

It would be another thing to discuss and would give us and S more of an idea of tech path etc

 

[oyzar]

there is often another 4 page threads discussion on the starting position dont worry... all in due time

 

[idiot_savant]

Still lurking these threads from time to time, just not playing as much lately. There was a short challenge quite awhile back where the quest was to get to Gunpowder as quickly as possible (see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=195529). There are some good hints and thoughts in that one. I got as early as 620 on what I called the High Road and 640 on what I called the Low Road (as Louis, 700s w/ Mehmed). On a separate map, one person even got to 560 IIRC. Difficulty was Monarch, not sure what we are up to here, but this is very viable. With the quality of Sisutil's play versus mine, I think you would see much better results here.

Anyway, inside the below (save thread space) was the two strategies I deployed. I think many are covered above but didn't get time to really read everyone's comments. The key was to drive major GSs and leverage tree accordingly by either not getting Fishing and/or avoiding Theology and Civil Service to preserve proper bulbing, etc. You don't need Civil Service to complete this strategy.

Just thought I would include in case it helps.....

Spoiler :

XIV High Road

Overall strategy
1) Lightbulb way to Gunpowder via Education
2) Gets cities quickly. Get marble, bronze, and gold sites.
3) Found early religion – late religions make it hard to convert valuable AI partners (didn’t make it, Qin useless due to position).
4) Use Oracle for CoL and GS for Philosophy to run Caste + Pacifism. (Pacifism didn’t work well as the AI wouldn’t trade when I was diff’t religion except Korea at times).
5) Build Parthenon for additional GPPs. Paris was my farm @ 250% around 250 AD. GL was built in 125 AD.
6) Followup Gunpowder with Liberalism from GS and Nationalism as free tech. Got GS late for this as I only captured it 5 turns after GP.

Tech Path: AH – Myst – Poly (didn’t get Hinduism by 2 turns) – Mining – BW – Writing (get libraries up and running) – Priesthood – Pottery – CoL (Oracle, somehow Wong beat me here too) – Alphabet – Trades: Med, Math, Mono, IW, Monarchy, Hunting, Archery – Literature – Currency/trade – Construction (had to research because my Priest hadn’t popped yet) – Paper – MC/trade – HB/trade - Gunpowder (took a lot of turns).

Great People: 600 BC (GS), 100 BC (GP), 175 AD (GS), 350 AD (GS), 475 AD (GS).
1st: Philosophy @ 175 BC
2nd: Popped Theology @ 100 BC.
3rd: Saved a long time to help pop Education.
4th: Education, popped tech in 375 AD.
5th: Popped for Liberalism in 680 AD, but still need couple of turns to finish. Got Nationalism in 720 AD.

Built and then drafted my 5 muskets out in 760 AD thanks to switch to Nationhood – but as you can see, cities aren’t big enough to take advantage of drafting unfortunately.

Compared to Low Road:
a) This gives you more valuable techs to trade. When going the via Guilds, you can’t get certain techs without messing up which tech the GS will lightbulb. Easy to trade, but then you lose advantage.
b) Economy in terms of GNP+MFG+FOOD: 136, slightly behind Low Road. As you can see, focusing on GPP and converting many cities to research often has given me relatively low score.
c) Otherwise, process and outcome seem very similar to me.


XIV Low Road
Overall strategy
1) Lightbulb way to Gunpowder via Guilds.
2) Gets cities quickly. Get marble, bronze, and gold sites.
3) Found early religion – late religions make it hard to convert valuable AI partners (didn’t make it this time either, Qin useless due to position). I did get lucky this time and one of the AI religions spread allowing me to benefit from Pacifism a long time. Wound up with 8 GSs by 720AD.
4) Use Oracle for CoL and GS for Philosophy to run Caste + Pacifism. Cannot trade for Theology or CS which will make the GS go to Paper for lightbulb. Also, must avoid Fishing to use GSs on Low Road as someone (lilnev?) mentioned.
5) Build Parthenon for additional GPPs. Paris was my farm @ 250% around 150 AD. GL was built in 1 AD.

Tech Path: AH – Myst – Poly (didn’t get Hinduism by 4 turns) – Mining – BW – Writing (get libraries up and running) – Masonry – Priesthood – Pottery – CoL – Alphabet – Trades: Med, Hunting, IW (so GS will bulb MC etc.), Monarchy – Literature – Mathematics because no one would trade with me at this point – Feudalism – Trades: Monotheism, Archery – Guilds (580 AD) – Trade: Construction

Great People: all GSs. Popped in 500 BC, 175 BC, 75 AD, 300 AD, 400 AD, 540 AD, and 800 AD. I used them as follows.

1) Philosophy @ 50 BC
2) Metal Casting @ 50 BC, held him until Math was researched as well.
3) Machinery @ 75 AD.
4) Held him as well as 2 others until after Guilds. Used this one to pop Gunpowder, but low pop left me with 2 turns to finish. I could have used one of the 2 left, but decided that was just bad strategy and shouldn’t be used for slightly better finish.

At this point I must digress a bit, because I’m still sitting there with 2 GSs (#5, #6) and trying to trade for Construction to pop Engineering. I keep the second one around in case my population isn’t big enough to cover the entire thing as it wasn’t with Gunpowder

5) Folks still wouldn’t trade with me until Inca religion finally spread to me in 740 AD. Flipped quickly to trade for Construction in 780 AD. So…

With this GS and the one from 540 AD (#6), I use this one to pop Engineering in same year. I wait on Academy after noticing another one is coming up next turn, leaving me with 2 in hand again. 2 turns later, I start…

6) Chemistry in 820 AD.
7) Finishes Chemistry in same turn. Very disappointing in some respects as this is one reason not to try this strategy and just wait to you can pop this tech. I had even slowed down my GPPs to get to Slavery and keep pop high for whipping.

Differences from High Road:
1) Not as valuable for tech trades as the other techs you get from High Road. This is partly opinion and partly based on my lack of trading materials. Moreover, trades going this one are often ones you don’t want to trade.
2) Economy was slightly better than High Road, 144 GNP+MFG+FOOD. Cities were also bigger despite have to use Slavery to generate Muskets quickly.
3) I believe this could be done better than I did, so you trade earlier for needed techs. Popping a GE somewhere in the 300s would have allowed me to get Guilds much quicker and likewise Gunpowder. I honestly think you could get Gunpowder somewhere in the 400s with this strategy.
4) My being able to get Chemistry so early as well really bothered me a bit as I popped 3 turns after I got my 5 muskets done. Grenadiers versus Longbows was a thing of pure beauty.

 

[Sisiutil]

Well, this is all very interesting, but I agree that it's time to get on with the game. I will start the game thread with the starting position tonight.

 

[PublicEnemy]

Well, this is all very interesting, but I agree that it's time to get on with the game. I will start the game thread with the starting position tonight.

You can't start yet. We've got at least 4 pages worth of discussion about the quickest way to Gunpowder to get through yet.
Then of course to find that we're isolated and need to get to Astronomy asap.

 

[aelf]

You can't start yet. We've got at least 4 pages worth of discussion about the quickest way to Gunpowder to get through yet.

Another debate in history that will never be resolved

 

[bardolph]

IMHO the fastest way to gunpowder is through :
oracling theology, researching paper, double lightbulbing education, researching gunpowder.
It's very fast, and requires only 2 GS. If you run 2 scientists in your oracle city, you have 2/3 odds of a scientist. If you run 2 scientists in another city, you have 100% odds for the first and second one provided you :
- start running the scientists before finishing the oracle (1 turn is enough)
- have no other source of GPs in the oracle city.
If you are late for the second scientist, it may be worth running a priest or engineer or artist ... for a few turns in the library city. The few % of artist are low enough a risk.

I agree. This is a fine research path, and it will be interesting to see something other than a CS/Bureaucracy beeline for a change. (EDIT: Dangit, I keep forgetting that the UB is Mathematics-based. Maybe the Math -> CS -> Paper route is best after all...)

I don't see a problem polluting the GP gene pool with the Oracle. If a Great Prophet does show up, build a shrine. The gold will help keep the Research slider high anyhow.

 

[pindicator]

Why do you need HE to get big cities? You're Mehmed. Happiness is just a Hammam away.

 

[Chrispy]

I agree. This is a fine research path, and it will be interesting to see something other than a CS/Bureaucracy beeline for a change. (EDIT: Dangit, I keep forgetting that the UB is Mathematics-based. Maybe the Math -> CS -> Paper route is best after all...)

I don't see a problem polluting the GP gene pool with the Oracle. If a Great Prophet does show up, build a shrine. The gold will help keep the Research slider high anyhow.

You need to lightbulb or research Math to be able to lightbulb Education anyway.

So it really comes down to:
Currency->CoL->CS->Paper
Med/Poly->Priesthood->CoL->CS->Paper
Med/Poly->Priesthood->Theology->Paper

as the choices for the beeline.

 

[Sisiutil]

You need to lightbulb or research Math to be able to lightbulb Education anyway.

So it really comes down to:
Currency->CoL->CS->Paper
Med/Poly->Priesthood->CoL->CS->Paper
Med/Poly->Priesthood->Theology->Paper

as the choices for the beeline.

Thanks for the summary.

To my mind, Mehmed's UB stands out just a little more than his UU, so I don't think we want to neglect Mathematics, in fact, we want to prioritize it. With that in mind, building the Hanging Gardens also appeals to me, especially with everyone advocating growing Mehmed's cities as big as possible as early as possible. Not to mention points towards a GE.

For Mehmed, therefore, the first path (through Math and Currency) might be best. I wouldn't mind letting someone else worry about the Oracle while I shoot for the HG.

 

[carl corey]

On a separate map, one person even got to 560 IIRC.

Yeap, that was me. I haven't played much for a Gunpowder beeline since, as I'm trying to play more diverse leaders. But I'll try to weigh in on this one. I think I even got Gunpowder before Construction in one of my test games and was happily building Janissaries before catapults, but the time to have a decent army I also got Construction.

 

[lukep]

hmm. doing a parallel game, i feel that the real power of MMII is the health bonus.

Dont seems much, but with the UB empathising this even more, it really leads easily to gigantic cities with HR hapiness, which means early specialists and/or cottage paradise. you need some food of course

if you happen to have rivers nearby, or even better floodplains that's as if you were financial. teching at 100% in the 0AD at no loss is something i was not used to, while building a big army.

That means for me that the Hanging gardens is very desirable. so Oracle/monarchy, early math could be a very good move. As it goes toward construction, it is also on the good path.

However, the GL may be at risk

 

[Sisiutil]

hmm. doing a parallel game, i feel that the real power of MMII is the health bonus.

Dont seems much, but with the UB empathising this even more, it really leads easily to gigantic cities with HR hapiness, which means early specialists and/or cottage paradise. you need some food of course

if you happen to have rivers nearby, or even better floodplains that's as if you were financial. teching at 100% in the 0AD at no loss is something i was not used to, while building a big army.

That means for me that the Hanging gardens is very desirable. so Oracle/monarchy, early math could be a very good move. As it goes toward construction, it is also on the good path.

However, the GL may be at risk

Well, I've played and won games without the GL before (the Asoka ALC for example). That's one thing I like about this version of Civ--none of the wonders are so powerful that if you don't get it the game is lost.