ALC 15 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Mehmed

[popejubal]

I think that you should move the warrior 1 NW onto the hill and then settle in place unless he reveals something interesting outside of the BFC.

If he does, then move the settler 1 south across the river to settle so that you don't have all of those tiles just sitting in the capitol. You can share them with your first expansion city.

(sorry, just getting warmed up for the 4 page debate on what to do with the first turn of the game.)

Obviously, a ton of the early options depend on the map. I'd suggest going for Bronze Working first to show where the copper is and to allow pop rushing to get that Granary into place nice and quick. Animal Husbandry is also a distinct option if there are pigs/sheep/cows in the starting cross.

Also, Writing is immediately available after Pottery, so one thing you might try is Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Writing. Mehmed is about the only leader that could really pull that off well. Grab a worker tech or two after writing, develop your lands a bit and then axe a neighbor right after you discover an early Alphabet to do some pointy stick research. With Alphabet in place, you can research Literacy and start lightbulbing some techs for a real beeline to Liberalism.

Who needs stuff like religion when Mathematics can get you a Hammam and Axemen can get you a neighbor's Temple of Artemis.


Mehmed is definitely a builder's dream, but don't forget that you can always build on a neighbor's land after you've taken their cities.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Janissaries are definitely as sweet a ticket to conquest as they sound. I would say that, if possible, any early warring should be a little lighter than usual. It wouldn't do to go crazy with the axes and end up behind and get no use from Janissaries....but I trust your instincts better than I would my own.

In any case....yeah, Maths is a definite consideration....and early, IMO. The HG will help you're building spree by providing GE points....if the start allows, perhaps you ought to try and stack up some GE points in one of your cities by building either/or the GW or the 'Mids? Going to war with GEs coming out of your ears sounds like a great way to have your cake and eat it too....but that sounds like a bit much building for a good axe rush....even on Prince, I think. But...well...whatever else I say doesn't mean much until we see the start....

 

[Harbourboy]

So, no mention of religion here. Are we saying to completely ignore the religious techs and/or founding a religion?

 

[Sisiutil]

So, no mention of religion here. Are we saying to completely ignore the religious techs and/or founding a religion?

Nothing about Mehmed speaks to any advantages from religion. He strikes me as one of those leaders with whom you're better off letting religions spread to you, then converting to whichever one will give you the most diplomatic benefit.

Unless I start with Mysticism I don't like to chase religions. I find they're too much work to spread; I'd rather build Swordsmen than Missionaries. Later religions just get you in hot water with those who founded the earlier ones. The only time I don't care about that is when I play as Rome, because I'm going to crush the heathens beneath my Praets' hobnailed caligae before long.

 

[TRJS]

Have found recently that religion coming to you is a much easier way of managing the diplomatic aspects of the game.

However, I made the mistake of converting to Issabella's hinduism and spreading it around my entire civ only to realise I was funding her research in a big way. Time to take her holy city and keep the money myself.

 

[Kietharr]

Wait, so you plan to immediately build a granary after getting pottery, and then what? You build a worker or settler, right? And that worker or settler stalls pop growth which is the whole point of having the granary in the first place. Better to build that first settler and worker (or maybe even 2 workers and a settler, depending on the map) and THEN a granary, which means pottery doesn't need to be first tech. Not to mention happy cap problems with getting too huge of a city early on. I suppose you could granary first and then whip but that just seems silly to have to whip out a worker and add the early unhappy when you could do the normal way just as quickly if not more quickly, and get BW earlier to see where to plant that 2nd city (among other things).

Yeah, all of this is speculative though, as until we've seen the start we don't know what we'll have to work with, depending on the start either way could go.

 

[Jet]

I think the UB is good, but not cheap, and will set you back building it. I don't pop up +2 happy everywhere on learning Mathematics. It's good during a long peace, and in the capital for more cottages. It might let you put off Monarchy, depending. It lets you ignore fresh water for most cities.

Like a Horse Archer UU, the Janissary is still a Horse Archer. They're good for pillaging and other derring-do. They're good for countering Knights, which persist.

Gunpowder through Guilds takes planning and committment. I think some of the circumstances that favor it are tech trading partners, getting a Merchant at the right time for Guilds, lacking Marble for Literature-Liberalism-Nationalism, and a low research rate. Part of it is timing. What are you going to do with Gunpowder when you get it? Are you willing to put off Engineering and attack with Cats? Put off Civil Service and run Vassalage?

 

[oyzar]

Bulbing paper(requires you to not have meditation!) double education might be your best bet for early janisaries. Then bulb philosophy for liberalism and sling nationalism so you can draft them.This amount of GS would probably require GL though so make sure to take height for that.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

This is tricky. You could go for Mining-->BW to get it out of the way, but what if there is no copper close to you? It's fractal so anything can happen. To me, it seems like all the whipping would be counterproductive to an SE as well. Your traits/starting techs seem to be geared more toward a fast cottage spam. Get Pottery first then BW. Assuming you're not alone on an island, you can then axe rush some one and keep warring while you beeline Gunpowder. By the time your Jannies expire, you should be rich/powerful/advanced enough to cruise to whatever type of victory you want. I don't see why you would need to pursue a peaceful victory unless the map makes domination too inconvenient.

 

[martin031]

I have been messing around with Ramsess who has the same starting techs. It is very flexible and realy depends on the starting position. Pottery is going to be cheap, (Like 14 turns I think on epic) so if I did not start near a bunch of floodplains, then AH, then if horses research pottery, if not then down the mining-BW path. But if you start in the middle of a bunch of forest and hills, or on a coast with other more useful resources, then pottery can wait.

I really like the open with pottery, but it usually ended up being more worthwhile to go with AH since if your lucky you will either find horses or have a resource you can improve with it.

 

[CivSetä]

In my experience Janissary rush is easily achievable on Monarch. I have done it on emperor, I did the good-old Liberalism beeline and chose gunpowder as a free tech. I had already built some cats, and my cities were on their happiness cap ready to grow on the same turn I reached liberalism. Immediately I whipped 1-2 janissaries in almost every city, which gave me nice stack of them. I was able to amass all janissaries to the border during 6-7 turns, and I had captured first city in 10 turns after getting gunpowder. I didn't have iron or ivory, so I had to do it without maces or jumbos. All I had with them (except cats of course) was a lonely medic warrior.

My first victim never got any gunpowder units, but my second enemy got them in the middle of the fight. I faced less than five of them, but they were still just a piece of cake for my pinch janissaries. I think janissaries are good against everything that AI can throw against you in that era, and you don't need anything more that janissaries and cats. You may be tempted to have some CR maces, but I suggest you try without.

 

[vale]

Depending on the start position of course, I think getting bronze working first is going to be very useful with Mehmed(who am I kidding its going to be very useful with anyone). As someone pointed out already, the 50% bonus to worker production doesn't apply food directly, but you can still use the whip to get the bonus out of food indirectly and therefore whip a worker for one population after putting one turn into it. If a worker first would have nothing to do you can grow with impunity knowing that your first worker is only a away.

 

[carl corey]

If I remember correctly in one of my Mehmed games I had three cities up to the time I got Gunpowder. Than I just took over the continent. Longbowmen do nothing to stop Janissaries and those are the troops you're going to meet. I'd say you can safely stay with only a handful of cities, try to please everybody and go to war only when you get gunpowder. Of course, if you have the option of easily taking down a close AI I'm all for doing it, especially if said AI has built some useful wonders.

 

[r_rolo1]

Hi Sisiutil! First, congrats about the last ALC; Who would think that the Creative Khan would be a better warmonger that the Agressive + Protective Toku?
I've been reading the tread and the discussion is spinning around two questions: BW vs Pottery and how to maximize the lifespan of the Ottoman's UU. About BW vs pottery, I'm more for BW, because most probably you will have to do some chopping and/or some whipping right from the start (especially whipping; hap cap in Monarch is 4, isn't it?). About The UU, the upper route is better ( more economic techs, the UB and Bureaucracy ) and it is more easily ligthbubbled ( like oyzar said in post #28).

P.S I've read somewhere in the forums that Nationalism could be lightbubbled ( I think that it was with a GA, but i'm unsure about that). Maybe if you could do that, the appearance of Jannissaries could be in a earlier date

 

[cabert]

About The UU, the upper route is better ( more economic techs, the UB and Bureaucracy ) and it is more easily ligthbubbled ( like oyzar said in post #28).

agreed. But I wouldn't research liberalism nor philosophy. Go straight to education>gunpowder, then switch to liberalism for nationalism (no trading of education of course).

P.S I've read somewhere in the forums that Nationalism could be lightbubbled ( I think that it was with a GA, but i'm unsure about that). Maybe if you could do that, the appearance of Jannissaries could be in a earlier date

2 things :
- lightbulbing with an artist is not very strong = you won't get nationalism entirely. More so at epic speed.
- to lighbulb nationalism with an artist you either need to avoid divine right by avoiding theology, which you avoid by avoiding monotheism, which you avoid by skipping masonry (! no construction = no catapults!)
or to have the complete list of techs in the list.

here is a beeline to nationalism using a GA

Literature have it
Drama have it
Music have it
Polytheism have it
Monarchy have it
Mass Media no scimet
Radio no scimet
Mysticism have it
Monotheism no masonry
Divine Right no theology
Alphabet have it
Meditation have it
Priesthood have it
Theology no monotheism
Nationalism tadam

 

[carl corey]

The Education -> Gunpowder line is an interesting idea. If you get there fast enough you'll have time to research Liberalism afterward without much risk. Depending on the religious situation you can even bypass Philosophy (don't research Meditation) and have three GSs, one for Paper, two for Education (who cares if you waste a bit, you're getting your UU faster), then just go for Gunpowder. That means you'll likely need the Great Library (I'm not sure you can pop enough GSs in time if not). The next GS could lightbulb Philosophy and that's it.

Or, if you can afford having a religion, lightbulb Philosophy and run Pacifism to get the rest of the GSs faster.

I'm not much in favour of a GA lightbulb of Nationalism. Since you probably won't have Macemen until after Janissaries with this beeline I'd rather have some catapults to protect from possible attacks. Plus, if there's Ivory nearby War Elephants are too good to pass.

 

[r_rolo1]

Thanks, Cabert. Risky move, I agree( I was quoting from memory ). And the techpath you proposed is solid and tested. but if there was a way to lightbulb nationalism and the liberalism path while researching Gunpowder.... ( dream on ), let say that the game would be a lot easier (hordes of drafted Jannisaries marching over anyone in a really early date)

 

[Snaaty]

I like most of the ideas brought up so far... ...they could be summarized into a great strat for mehmed:

Early game:

research:
bronze, pottery, writing, math

Try to use his trait como and grow 6+ large and foodstrong cities yourself (lots of workers)

Cottage-spam very early (if possible) to run away in tech

Play peacefull (or, when you are squeezed in, only a very short expansion war to assure you get 6+cities)

...

Midgame:

get drama directly after lit is, build the GL, HE and the Globe

Beeline lib (lots of lightbulbing), pick nationalism, research gunpowder ASAP and draft like one million of the UU

Burn down your neares neighbours with the UU and REX

When UU obsolites, back to builder mode and go space-race

 

[r_rolo1]

When UU obsolites, back to builder mode and go space-race

Or win by domination... I've tried this guy once or twice, and even when the UU obsoletes, you'll have a lot of land and cities and a highly promoted gunpowder army (lots of battles won = lots of xp's). Unless you're stuck in a minor continent, the path to Domination has a red carpet all over it.

 

[oyzar]

I like snaatys idea cept with one major difference.

Midgame:

get drama directly after lit is, build the GL(with NE), HE and the Globe all in different cities.

Beeline gunpowder ASAP by lightbulbing paper and education(twice) by avoiding meditation then research meidation and bulb philosophy and get liberalism for nationalism(possibly by reasearching whats missing of sailing/calendar/compas/metalcasting and bulbing it with another scientist, need to not have machinery) and get a huge amount of UU by first building(paired with cats) and later drafting and just smash your opoennt.

Then you could either go for domination space race or diplomatic victory depending on where you are in the grande scheeme of things when your opponents get riflemen.

To do this you obviously need a heavy GS farm so you might have to run caste system while doing this while the rest of your cities have tons of cottages, you need 3 GS to get to gunpowder and possibly 5(4) to get to liberalism so make sure you have those ready when you are done with civil sercive(or theology though i wouldnt advice it...).