ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[Sisiutil]

Sounds like wioneo is voting to research Construction next, and if we're going to war, I agree. We'll be getting the happy benefit from the gold as soon as the mine is finished; with the lucky-strike silver mine, more cottages, and plunder, the economy should be fine without working the gold mine for awhile, and we won't need the dye for happiness for some time. So we can delay Calendar for now.

Besides, Ragnar and Toku both have Calendar. Who knows, one of them (possibly Ragnar) might loosen up and trade it to us. And it would be good to be sure we're going to hang on to that banana tile before building a plantation there.

I also like Jet's suggestion about going after Bursa first--it gives my stack something to do before Catapults are available.

By the way, my Great Prophet will appear in Delhi in 2 turns. I'm planning on using him for the Buddhist shrine, unless anyone objects. I think he'd light-bulb Polytheism at this point, and I could probably get that from Mehmed soon--either in a trade before the war, or as part of a (very temporary) peace settlement. I can't wait too long, though, as I need it to go after Literature and the GL.

The Colossus does sound attractive, since MC gives me a big boost and I have a few coastal cities already. If I take Istanbul as planned, that's 3 clams tiles to work. I vote for Madras building it, as the culture boost will help it versus Bjorgvin, while Bangalore will have very little culture problems once Istanbul falls.

Speaking of Mehmed's cities, should I keep them, or raze and have settlers standing by to rebuild? I've already said that Istanbul should be 1 tile southwest, especially since it's sitting on top of iron, which is a waste. As a result, Ankara could also stand to be 1 tile SW. Bursa's actually in a good location--lots of food, it can work the iron, and it can also work some of my science city's cottages. Edrine is also not in a bad location. But the first two... hmmm. Food for thought. Frankly, I expected better from the revised AI.

 

[drkodos]

Frankly, I expected better from the revised AI.

The game engine was really not revised that much. Most of the Blake changes to the "AI" were droped last minute before the patch came out and the resultant patch was not completely tested.

So, a lot of the talk of the improved AI is misplaced. It is, however, available through a mod that Blake has made available, but it still has some bugs in it, mainly a major CTD issue.

I still have an original beta test patch that has substantially stronger game engine thinking than the one released. Maybe, eventually, Firaxis will come around and incorporate a lot of these changes into a formal patch, but I am not holding my breath and here is why: The overwhelming majority of people that play the game do not play on the level you do. They play Noble or lower. Concern was that the changes would negatively affect game play and balance at this level.

Just like the American education system, things are geared to the 40th percentile and lower and not the milk at thebottom of the cream.

 

[NaZdReG]

way to be critical dr.

sisuitil, if you need to resettle go ahead and do so I think it would be a better move anyway. the colossus would be a good move if you can pull it off. I dont wanna dig but did you get the great lighthouse already?? if you can double up it would result in great merchants from a coastal city.. useful to pop techs at this stage in the game.

definately get the shrine on board, the gpt will seriously help your war efforts and make sure your new cities become buddhist asap.

NaZ

 

[drkodos]

way to be critical dr.

NaZ

Whatchoo talkin bout Willis?

 

[cabert]

Just to be clear.
My alternative, just as Patagonia stated wasn't about going cultural, really. It was about the fact that you have good land to grab without war.
I even stated it under my dotmap that I do not necessarily advocate cultural (only one religion! you're far from ideally suited!).

So I repeat my point : you don't need to go to war now.
Build a few settlers and a lot of cottages, tech happily to engineering then storm through your bad neighbours.

And of course, a shrine is the best you can do now, with buddhism being dominant on your continent.

 

[Fetch]

I've gotta hand it to you, you guys have some serious cajones to be recommending a cultural victory with Brennus and Tokugawa as neighbors. And with the new AI that keeps up better in the later stages of the game. I foresee an invasion in around 1800 by a lot of amphibious infantry and Combat I / City Garrison I / Drill I riflemen.

Cultural -> Toko: "Ho-ho now i've got riflemen." -> Sisiutil becomes a vassal. We all laugh at him. You've got to take out somebody, I think the consensus is Mehemed.

 

[patagonia]

Cultural -> Toko: "Ho-ho now i've got riflemen." -> Sisiutil becomes a vassal. We all laugh at him. You've got to take out somebody, I think the consensus is Mehemed.

I don't think anybody's questioning the wisdom of taking out one of the neighbours (or even all of the neighbours depending on the eventual victory condition pursued). It's more an issue of whether doing so now is the most efficient/effective way to expand at this stage of the game.

Especially if you're going to be razing/rebuilding or fighting a succession of smaller wars to do so.

 

[johnny_rico]

If you're hoping to build the great library, you should act on it. I've found the AI now places a higher priority on alphabet and literature. In my patched warlords monarch games, I haven't built the GL yet, something I always managed to achieve pre-patch.

 

[curtadams]

Cultural victory? At Monarch? Post-patch? With only one religion and few cottage-spam sites? Seriously, can a good position be worse for cultural than this?

I'd say the current goal should be war with Mehmed, but since you don't have currency or COL, you don't want a lot of cities. Take his capitol for the breathing room and his iron but as little else as possible. Bursa should burn - if refounded it won't be tenable next to your cultural boundaries and you can't afford to carry the city yet.

After that, I'd go peaceful for a long while. Let Mehmed live as a pet. Found the fishing village. At that point you'll have the largest empire and Patagonia's possibility of Buddhist harmony. You'll need a lot of development to properly digest all the cities you'll have. Dehli is embarassingly small.

 

[johnny_rico]

Cultural victory? At Monarch? Post-patch? With only one religion and few cottage-spam sites? Seriously, can a good position be worse for cultural than this?

I'd say the current goal should be war with Mehmed, but since you don't have currency or COL, you don't want a lot of cities. Take his capitol for the breathing room and his iron but as little else as possible. Bursa should burn - if refounded it won't be tenable next to your cultural boundaries and you can't afford to carry the city yet.

After that, I'd go peaceful for a long while. Let Mehmed live as a pet. Found the fishing village. At that point you'll have the largest empire and Patagonia's possibility of Buddhist harmony. You'll need a lot of development to properly digest all the cities you'll have. Dehli is embarassingly small.

Geographically speaking, yeah, it's probably sub par for a cultural victory but still possible. I think it is still possible to found both Christianity and Taoism, and believe the continent can be unified under Buddhism. Peace and religion are all that's needed for a cultural victory.

Three cities can be built in the juicy grasslands to serve as the cultural cities. Enough resources and hills exist to build your stupas, pagodas, and cathedrals.

A war with Mehmed is needed, sooner than later, razing most of the cities (rebuild near Istanbul, 50/50 on relocating ankara). Cultural may not be the easiest path to victory, but a war with a tech superior Ragnar will be difficult and Toku, with the protective trait and loads of soldiers, will also be tough to take down. Fighting on this contient will lead to a shabby economy.

While the cultural victory path appears sub optimal and unpopular, it's still something I'd like to see attempted.

 

[drkodos]

While the cultural victory path appears sub optimal and unpopular, it's still something I'd like to see attempted.

Seconded.

I believe a fear of failure will prohibit this from happening, though. No offense to Sisiutil intended.

 

[johnny_rico]

Seconded.

I believe a fear of failure will prohibit this from happening, though. No offense to Sisiutil intended.

Meditation is the key.

 

[Sisiutil]

Seconded.

I believe a fear of failure will prohibit this from happening, though. No offense to Sisiutil intended.

It's not so much fear as fun--as in wanting to take advantage of the new Warlords features like Great Generals and Trebuchets and so on.

There's consensus on pretty much everything else except for what to do once I have what I want from Mehmed. So I'll play the next round up to the point where I have the capital and marble sites (probably both razed and refounded) and then we'll decide from there.

Curtadams, I'll consider your advice regarding Bursa. That may mean I'll raze 3 Ottoman cities, rebuild 2 of them, and leave poor Mehmed with Edrine. Frankly, though, I think I should just be merciful and finish him off at that point.

 

[drkodos]

It's not so much fear as fun--as in wanting to take advantage of the new Warlords features like Great Generals and Trebuchets and so on.

I hear ya. My comment wasn't so much aimed at you, but the general mindset that permeates these boards that winning is so very important.

Remember, the actual quote of Lombardi is really:
Winning isn't the only thing. Wanting to win is.

We all know the bastardized version, but it is, alas, incorrect and completely misses the larger point he made to his team that attitude is most important and far outweighs actual results. Far too nuanced for most Americans, though.

Either way, if you wanted to test out all these goodies, why pick Asoka? I mean, the synergy between these goodies would have been better served with a Warlords leader that would better emphasize these nice little gizmos, gadgets, and generals.


Just sayin.

<cough> Brennus <cough>
<cough cough> Hannibal <cough cough>

 

[Tyrant Roger]

While this probably goes without saying, I suggest you inspect Mehmid's cities carefullly before razing them. If a wonder or two is present, you may wish to reconsider razing the city. And if the city population is large enough and the accumulated buildings important enough, you may wish to keep the city even if it is somewhate misplaced.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

I hear ya. My comment wasn't so much aimed at you, but the general mindset that permeates these boards that winning is so very important.

Remember, the actual quote of Lombardi is really:
Winning isn't the only thing. Wanting to win is.

We all know the bastardized version, but it is, alas, incorrect and completely misses the larger point he made to his team that attitude is most important and far outweighs actual results. Far too nuanced for most Americans, though.

Either way, if you wanted to test out all these goodies, why pick Asoka? I mean, the synergy between these goodies would have been better served with a Warlords leader that would better emphasize these nice little gizmos, gadgets, and generals.


Just sayin.

<cough> Brennus <cough>
<cough cough> Hannibal <cough cough>

Well, Asoka's traits are actually fairly good for warmongering. Not amazing, but Spiritual and Organized are usually mentioned after Aggressive and Charismatic for war. Also, Asoka is perceived as a "peaceful" leader by many, and is often swept under the rug and forgotten for Gandhi, who plays a better peaceful game. It should be useful to show that Asoka is a jack of all trades deal who can war and build well, a sort of "jack-of-all-trades but master-of-none" deal. At least, that's I see him. I'd get the continent either conquered or a Buddhist, happy-happy, brotherly love huggy land(which seems kinda unlikely) and then go for a more peaceful victory, to show how Asoka can do it all.

Besides, then he'll be chomping at the bit to do "all war, all the time" domination/conquest deal with Brennus and help to highlight how the Gallic Warrior and Dun don't suck as terribly as some believe...

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

So I'll play the next round up to the point where I have the capital and marble sites (probably both razed and refounded) and then we'll decide from there.

If you can remember, include a full round robin set of screenshots of the diplomacy screen, since I think that's going to be one of the big considerations. Not just what do Ragnar and Tokugawa think of you, but also what do they think of each other (and possibly Mehmed if he survives).

Which leads me to this ...

Frankly, though, I think I should just be merciful and finish him off at that point.

I think so too. Somebody said both Ragnar and Tokugawa are Pleased with him. That means if you keep him around, you'll eventually get a -2 you declared war on our friend instead of just a -1. On the other hand, you might not care about that if you follow this plan ...

You've said that you want to play with the new Warlords features in this game. Of course you do. To that end, you should consider vassalizing Ragnar and/or Tokugawa on the way to either a domination or diplomatic victory.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

i sure hope everyone knows Brennus isnt in the game . Ragnar is in the game and he is the vikings

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

i sure hope everyone knows Brennus isnt in the game . Ragnar is in the game and he is the vikings

Yeah, it isn't helping my mental block on those two guys. Now that I finally have it figured out that it's Ragnar, I seem to have infected half a dozen other people with my strange confusion.

 

[Elandal]

That may mean I'll raze 3 Ottoman cities, rebuild 2 of them, and leave poor Mehmed with Edrine. Frankly, though, I think I should just be merciful and finish him off at that point.

Be prepared for Mehmed offering to capitulate. Assuming he offers to capitulate when you've taken what you want, he's no longer much of a vassall, not being able to provide you with benefits (eg. buying yuor excess resources at high price, coughing up the money by going to almost zero research).
However, if you turn down the capitulation, he may run to Toku or Ragnar, wanting to vassall himself to basically anyone who can protect his existence. Should either one of those accept vassallage from Mehmed, you may be thrust into a war you didn't want yet.

Regarding vassalls gained by capitulation: In case I find myself with a vassall state that I know can't break free, I treat them well. I sell them whatever they lack, trade (not take) whatever they have which I need, and gift them techs and resources. When I know the vassall can't break free, I rather have them think highly of me, and have them with resources they need to participate in my next wars. They've always happily traded their only iron (or whatever I've been lacking) for some cows (or other resources I've had in excess), making sure I have access to resources the combined empire has while they have whatever is left after I've got what I want.

Case in point: in (pre-patch) game I had chosen my mark, and attacked Toku with the intent to take him down in two short wars. First war went as expected, and short peace ensued. At the end of second war, when Toku had one city left (one I planned to raze anyway), he offered to capitulate. That didn't suit at all to my plans, so I turned him down (two turns and he'd be no more in any case). Next, he went for Isabella, who happily took a useless vassall. While I had planned to go to war with Isabella too, my plans had a phase of peace between second Japanese and first Spanish wars. This drove my economy down the drains: I managed to get the much needed Military Tradition and upgraded some Knights. But I was running zero research for a bit to do that, my border cities were pillaged to stone age, and generally I was set back several turns. I did raze the last Japanese city (no more motherland, residents of Kyoto were good Mongolians now), and in time did take three Spanish cities and did accept Isabella's capitulation (she made for a fine vassall unlike Toku in the state he was when he offered). And I was horribly behind in tech, my economy in shambles.