ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[Zarah Neander]

Personally I'd go for feudalism more sooner than later.

Atm you don't make good use of your traits. You're organized and haven't build any courthouses or lighthouses yet. You're spiritual and don't have a meaningful way of making use of it.

Feudalism would allow you to run Serfery aka Slavedom (constantly switch between slavery and serfdom). Given the fact that you're last in GNP and second last in population (really last cause Mehmed doesn't count) some heavy duty worker action might be appropriate. And serfdom with fast workers is really nice. Vassalage can also take care of +2 xp in times of war.

I'd go currency first and than trade/research feudalism. Theology does nothing for you economically and this is where you must catch up.

My 2 euro cent...

Pia

 

[UncleJJ]

Atm you don't make good use of your traits. You're organized and haven't build any courthouses or lighthouses yet. You're spiritual and don't have a meaningful way of making use of it.

I agree with what you say about Feudalism and serfdom and vassalage civics. Vassalage and theocracy go well together when producing troops and Sisiutil has used (in other ALCs) the technique of saving several units in the build queue and then switching into those civics for a few turns to produce troops with 4 exp more than usual.

Probably the best use he can make of the Spiritual trait is to periodically switch caste system with slavery and simultaneously pacificism (needs Philosophy) with either theocracy or OR. Once Lahore has grow up and is developed it will be a terrific GP farm. Three clams (with lighthouse) and a rice will give food surplus of 14, enough for 7 scientists in the steady state. But the trick of using the Spiritual trait is to run a lot more scientists while running the caste system and pacificism using food stored in the granary and then when switching back to slavery and OR refill the granary and whip in another building. With a population of 15 Lahore could probably support 10 scientists for say 5 turns = 60 GPPs / turn, starving the city at 6 food / turn while working the clams and rice. Then run zero scientists for 5 turns while recovering the food and working the iron mine, towns, farm and costal tiles. That gives more GPPs over time and uses food more efficiently than running in a steady state. At that rate it should not take long to make several GS for academies or lightbulbing.

Also Delhi could become a powerful religious city generating great prohets. At present 4 priests can be run there and so when pacificism is adopted I would run priests and then fill up the granary when another civic is used. To further this religious theme I would build Angkor Wat (+ per priest and 2 GP GPPs) in Delhi making priests very efficient specialists throughout the empire and allowing up to 7 to be run in Delhi. That is why I recommend that the 2 remaining floodplains are made into farms rather than cottages as higher food means more priests can be supported for longer.

Since we are running HR it would be adviseable to build a few cheap units (archers or chariots are enough) in nearby cities and send them to Lahore, as the city will become very productive faster if it doesn't have to whip in a lot of buildings to add happiness and contain its growth. At size 4 working 3 clams and a rice it will be growing at the rate of 1 pop per turn so whipping at a rate fast enough to use the food will quickly build up a lot of unhappiness. Helping turn Lahore into a scientific powerhouse is better than trying to develop the small cities themselves for the time being. Building an early library in Lahore and running 2 scientists will help dump some of the excess food when not running the caste system.

The caste system can also be run on its own before Philosophy is researched and of course a GS will allow us to lightbulb ... you guessed it Philosophy

I do hope Sisiutil will be scientific about applying these ideas religiously (puns intended ) and then I'm sure his apparently weak position will be rapidly recovered.

 

[aelf]

Don't worry too much about low GNP right now. Just take steps to correct the situation. Once you have expanded enough, you shouldn't have a problem catching up later on. Unless the new patch is really a killer...

 

[drkodos]

Don't worry too much about low GNP right now. Just take steps to correct the situation. Once you have expanded enough, you shouldn't have a problem catching up later on. Unless the new patch is really a killer...

IF the other continent is unified, this game is already unwinnable unless a cultural or diplo victory is the goal (it ain't going to be a time victory at this level..... ). At this stage, the signals have been sent that there is a monster out there in the darkness.

 

[karr1255]

Maybe suggesting a cultural win wasn't so crazy afterall.

But on a serious note the game isn't lost by any means but you have to get going. Grab currency and get courthouses up, even without being organized they would be a high priority by now (for me anyways).

Lots of words...

Great post and it really shows that spiritual gives you endless possibilities. If you use them, this trait can be a massive asset in winning the game.

 

[Sisiutil]

Sorry, real life has intervened. I'll try to continue this game and thread at a later date.

 

[aelf]

Sorry, real life has intervened. I'll try to continue this game and thread at a later date.

Sounds like bad news, judging from the open-endedness of the statement. Everything alright?

Anyway, in the first Emperor Challenge, the other continent was unified and I think we were even further behind than Sisiutil is in this game. If Monarch after the patch is not significantly harder than Emperor in the old version, there is still hope.

 

[drkodos]

Sounds like bad news, judging from the open-endedness of the statement. Everything alright?

Anyway, in the first Emperor Challenge, the other continent was unified and I think we were even further behind than Sisiutil is in this game. If Monarch after the patch is not significantly harder than Emperor in the old version, there is still hope.

No doubt there is always hope. But after seeing some of the signs in this game, I am not sure there is a lot of it to be spread around.

Sisiutil: Good luck, good skill, and take care of real life always as priority #1. Thanks for all your efforts and I hope you have good holiday season.

 

[NaZdReG]

Just want to add to the good wishes. Sisuitil if you check back into this thread just wanted to say I hope things are well.

NaZ

 

[UncleJJ]

I hope things work out well for you Sisiutil and you can get back soon to keep us entertained. We'll miss you.

Good Luck

 

[jerVL/kg]

I wonder if Sisiutil merely got frustrated with all the people belittling his progress?

Some people keep saying that the game is already lost, there's a runaway AI on the other continent that can't be stopped, yada yada yada...without cheating, how do you guys know this?? It's 640AD and the Great Library hasn't been built yet -- way behind, I know, but that means the other continent is at least that far behind, too.

Yes, I would have concentrated more on expansion, city growth and tile improvements (still can't believe he hasn't founded that NW city yet!!) but even so, it shouldn't be hard to catch up. Maintaining a 50% research rate pre-Currency is NOT a bad thing, in fact it's practically ideal. All he has to do is found those last cities, build those courthouses & lighthouses, cottage those damn flood plains, and Sisiutil will once again run away with this game.

Granted, I'm a Prince/Vanilla player so maybe the bar has raised substantially with the expansion, but I don't see the point of claiming the game has been lost when that's clearly not the case.

 

[drkodos]

I wonder if Sisiutil merely got frustrated with all the people belittling his progress?

Some people keep saying that the game is already lost, there's a runaway AI on the other continent that can't be stopped, yada yada yada...without cheating, how do you guys know this?? It's 640AD and the Great Library hasn't been built yet -- way behind, I know, but that means the other continent is at least that far behind, too.

Go into a save game file, hit F9 and look at the Wonders that have been built, and world leading cities. Also, look at the demographics screen. In particular GNP & food. Very telling.

The AI tends to have nations more cooperative with each other as far as tech trading than they are with the human player, especially if they are sharing a continent and the human does not meet them until 1000 AD, or so.


All this is merely my opinion, based on my experiences.

And so what if it had been a loss? Where is the shame in that? More can be learned in losses than can be garnered in wins. None of my advice was taken, but I did not get upset over this and was deeply interested in seeing how this would play out, regardless of income. I mean outcome.

And, I prefer to take people at their word, until proven otherwise.

Fair enough?

 

[jerVL/kg]

Go into a save game file, hit F9 and look at the Wonders that have been built, and world leading cities. Also, look at the demographics screen. In particular GNP & food. Very telling.

I don't have Warlords so I can't access the save file...can you post images of these screens?

And how can you tell the GNP/Food output of a civilization you haven't met yet?

 

[wioneo]

And how can you tell the GNP/Food output of a civilization you haven't met yet?

Doesn't it give rankings?

 

[drkodos]

I don't have Warlords so I can't access the save file...can you post images of these screens?

And how can you tell the GNP/Food output of a civilization you haven't met yet?

As mentioned by wioneo, the demographics screen gives you a numerical ranking, in this case 1 to 7. 1 being the best in that category, 7 being the lowest. So, despite not having met some other civs, if one only has met 3 other nations but see that we are #7 in food, then it is safe to assume we are in dire straights.

Unfortunately, the computer I use to hook to the internet is not the one I use for playing, so for me to post he screenies I need to tally back and forth between the two several times over since I do not have Sisiutil's game files on either at the moment.

I will make an attempt to do so , but if frustration oocurs, or my wife beckons, or both (!) I may not deliver the goods. But, I will make honest attempt to do so.

 

[drkodos]

Also, why would he keep posting this:

Input and recommendations are, as always, welcome.

If he did not mean to encourage people? I take him at his word, as I hope and wish others would.

 

[drkodos]

Here is the demographics screen. Read it and infer what you will. I have already provided my analysis, which I maintain.

Next to last in both food and population. Near the bottom in "soldiers".

Last in GNP.
Next to last in Imports/Exports.

Mfg Goods is meh. I consider this the most important, because it tells us exactly what production is, and production and food is everything, to me. Just my opinion. And of course, my opinion, is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Look at those population numbers. One tenth what the leader has. ONE-TENTH.
This game is over.

But hey! Our people are happy!


As always, I call them as I see them, popular or not. So even when people disagree with me, they can rest assured that they are getting my un-sugar coated version of events.


Do you now see why I am stating there is a monster in the darkness somewhere?

 

[Elandal]

Looking at the demographics, I'll try to give my opinion.

Starting with Land Area - Land is power afterall. Third, but not much behind the leader. This means that if our land would be developed, we'd be doing fine. But looking at the other values I conclude our problem is partially that our land is not developed as well as it could be.

Population. This comes from land, specifically land that provides food. Uhh... We aren't shining here. We've got land but no pop - maybe because we haven't improved our land or because we haven't worked the food of the land growing the cities? Pop is very important, and unless we know that our cities are currently at a stage where they can grow blazingly fast (as in, we have no reason not to switch them to high food tiles, and they have high food tiles I hope) this is .. toast. Note that not only is our pop a tenth of the leader, it's also less than a quarter of average.

GNP is a value I might not put too much weight on. I believe it's commerce, so good use of specialists may lead to low GNP with still high tech rate, right? However, being last doesn't look too good. Especially being less than half of the average, quarter of the leader. Could be acceptable if we were currently in high-production or growth mode where our commerce is low, but is that the case? At least not in production.

Next up, production: third, somewhat below best, somewhat above average. Not bad place if we were leading in GNP for example (would indicate we're currently teching up), but that's not the case here. So not promising.

Soldiers: I'm not so sure how valuable this stat is. A bit below average. Dunno. This includes some techs, population, some buildings, and the actual units. So being low on pop definitelly affects the values here.


So what's the status? Probably beyond what I could get up from. Looks like the medicine is: improve the land, grow the pop. More pop = more worked tiles (or more specialists) == more beakers and hammers. If that growth can be achieved fast, maybe it's still fine. But yes, there's apparently a monster somewhere out there, so looks grim.

As things look grim, I'm especially interested in how it goes. Are we beyond hope, or can we rise to the power still? Much more interesting to follow this than to yawn through a won game...

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Next to last in both food and population. Near the bottom in "soldiers".

Population is troubling. Very troubling, given that we're #1 and #2 in happiness and health which usually tend to the most important factors limiting growth. We're within 15-20% of the average on food which leads me to believe that if population could be fixed somehow, food would take care of itself.

Last in GNP.
Next to last in Imports/Exports.

GNP is a weird calculation that doesn't consider specialists, buildings, and a few other important factors. Most of the time I find it to be misleading at best and useless at worst. Having said that, however, being in last place and significantly below the average is certainly a bad sign.

I don't know what imports/exports means exactly. It looks like it might just be a net of gold per turn income paid to and received from other civilizations. If I'm reading the numbers correctly, we're at -3, the leader is at +2, and the average is 0. If that's the case, I'd say that's a dead heat. We're one good trade away from being #1.

Mfg Goods is meh.

I'd say we're fine on that one. We're within 10-20% of the leader and well above the average. Here again, if population could be fixed, then this one would come along for the ride.

Look at those population numbers. One tenth what the leader has. ONE-TENTH.

Like I said, population is definitely the most worrying of the demographics. The situation isn't great, but I think it's a bit early to be calling the game a lost cause. The last turn played took us to 640AD, and the last technology we researched was Code of Laws. There's plenty of game left to recover. We have two rivals we can conquer, and we're reasonably competitive with them technologically for the time being. The health and happiness situation coupled with the recent completion of The Colossus should make us a sleeping giant.

aelf's first diplomatic win in the Emperor Masters' Challenge should be enough of a cautionary tale against bailing out prematurely.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Note that not only is our pop a tenth of the leader, it's also less than a quarter of average.

I wouldn't put too much weight on the actual numbers. The rank is useful, but the numeric calculation is strange. It isn't actually the total number of specialists and people working tiles in your cities. As I understand it, there's a strange weighting where larger size cities count for disproportionately more population.

So, for example, having 1/10th of the leader's population on the demographics screen might actually mean that he has 5 cities with population 8 while we have 5 with population 6. That's really only a 40 to 30 deficit, but if the 7th and 8th people count more (as I believe they do), then the numbers tell a different story.

So population is a problem, but I don't think we need to find a way to get 10 times as many people.

Edit: Check out this thread The inner workings of the Demo screen explained for details. The executive summary is that the population statistic on the demographics screen seems even more out of whack and even less useful than I thought.