ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[wioneo]

If I ever see that a game is lost, I just mass troops for a few hundred years and then conquer, or post warlords vassalize the world. If I fail that, then I just blast everyone else back to the stone age and go for a time victory. A human can always win, somehow...

...but I don't even think that this game is lost, I usually don't pay atten to the demo screen and after warlords have been behind technologically for most of the game. I doubt that I would be able to do so well without war, but it is WARlords...

 

[drkodos]

I am playing it out from that last save.


Without spoiler I only add this: I did much better with my settler first stategy than I am doing here. I emplore some of you to play it out as well, and perhaps then we could compare notes in a PM so as to not spoil this, if and when, Sisiutil returns.

 

[Elandal]

So, for example, having 1/10th of the leader's population on the demographics screen might actually mean that he has 5 cities with population 8 while we have 5 with population 6. That's really only a 40 to 30 deficit, but if the 7th and 8th people count more (as I believe they do), then the numbers tell a different story.

Oh dear - the scaling seems indeed quite heavy on larger cities. So 1/10th would maybe mean that the leading civ has the same number of cities but about 2-3 pop points larger each. That's a big difference (size 5 vs size 7-8 is a lot of commerce or hammers) but nothing we can't overcome.

However, a worse case would be that the leader has twice the cities each about one point larger than our respective (in size order) city. That would be a disaster popwise.

 

[Preston85]

I hope you sort out RL and these ALC games continue, they've helped me lots in getting inside the mind of when/how to use these strategies you read about. I learn by example so these are much better for me than any written guide.

Thanks and best wishes,
Preston

 

[Vikciukas]

I am sure that we shall win this game. But first step is for more experienced players to provide solutions and not showing their "expertise" by concluding that the game is lost.

I think it is very important to develop land and to go into war.

 

[cabert]

I am sure that we shall win this game. But first step is for more experienced players to provide solutions and not showing their "expertise" by concluding that the game is lost.

I think it is very important to develop land and to go into war.

There aren't a lot "experienced players" with the patch.
Mostly because it just came out .

I think the game isn't lost, but it's not the walk in the park Sisiutil got used to.
If we want the GLibrary, we's have it sooner in a real production city than in this lousy commerce station + it's not going to be a GP farm, and what is the great library? it's a great scientist factory.

+ there is room to expand, there are a lot of worker actions to do, a war isn't the best solution right now IMHO.
WE NEED WORKERS!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The victory will most likely be cultural though, because all you have on this map are tons of jungles, which will turn into grassland. However, not before you take a lot more cities from Ragnar to compensate for your lack of spots for large cities. Don't build workers, capture them. I'm afraid it's more war. Send in the Indian elephants!

I wouldn't worry too much about Tokugawa: he's ahead in points but far away, and he's never too good at teching either. If he attacks, it'll be logistical nightmares for him too, since he's so far away.

 

[UncleJJ]

I played on from the savegame for a few centuries and I can assure people (without giving too much away) that this game is far from lost and could be an easy win. Sisiutil has a lot of good territory and once that is developed and his cities get up to full size he has a research and production powerhouse here. The trick is to keep the neighbours happy while you do that.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

I wouldn't put too much weight on the actual numbers. The rank is useful, but the numeric calculation is strange. It isn't actually the total number of specialists and people working tiles in your cities. As I understand it, there's a strange weighting where larger size cities count for disproportionately more population.

So, for example, having 1/10th of the leader's population on the demographics screen might actually mean that he has 5 cities with population 8 while we have 5 with population 6. That's really only a 40 to 30 deficit, but if the 7th and 8th people count more (as I believe they do), then the numbers tell a different story.

So population is a problem, but I don't think we need to find a way to get 10 times as many people.

Edit: Check out this thread The inner workings of the Demo screen explained for details. The executive summary is that the population statistic on the demographics screen seems even more out of whack and even less useful than I thought.

So from the thread in this post, population doesn't scale by pop points, which is more important. one pop point gives 1000 population but two pop points gives 6000 population, 3 pop gives 21000 (if I recalled that right). Seven or eight pop is like a couple hundred thousand. Having one tenth the population just means that he has no really large cities. Once currency comes on line, and he powers through calendar and monarchy (not that that's top priority, but those let him develop a couple extra happy resources that just sit there before then) he should have a significantly larger population capacity.

Raise the happy cap and add a few pop points to all the cities, especially the smaller ones, and watch the population soar. This is Monarch level. Your base happy cap isn't as low as emperor so it's still very fixable.

 

[Eggolas]

I played on from the savegame for a few centuries and I can assure people (without giving too much away) that this game is far from lost and could be an easy win. Sisiutil has a lot of good territory and once that is developed and his cities get up to full size he has a research and production powerhouse here. The trick is to keep the neighbours happy while you do that.

Interesting, UncleJJ. Don't give it away, but when I viewed the save game it appeared to me that quite a few more workers and a respite from military campaigning might allow the native terrain to begin ramping up the economy. I'd also concentrate on a non-military tech path for now.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

I think that Sisiutil may have been banking on capturing large numbers of workers from easy axe-rushes of unprepared neighbors. The one war he has had has not been particularly profitable.

 

[Sisiutil]

I think that Sisiutil may have been banking on capturing large numbers of workers from easy axe-rushes of unprepared neighbors. The one war he has had has not been particularly profitable.

Okay, I'm back.

Sorry for the drama which wasn't really dramatic--just a bunch of little things that came up all at once and swamped me. I've dealt with some of them, and I might not be able to get back to the game for a few days, but at least I have a little time to come back here now.

Hans is correct. It seems to me as though one of the AI improvements is that the computer civs are smarter than they used to be about preserving their workers from capture. I am indeed used to capturing several in an early war; I got 4 here IIRC, but that's not as many as I'm used to getting. Then again, I haven't taken all of Mehmed's cities.

Eggolas' plan in the post just above is exactly what I had in mind. In some ways this is standard civ strategy: have a war, take some territory, then make peace and restore the mess that made of your economy. As I've played more games I've gotten used to this and a little bolder (too bold?) about letting my economy and research grind down, because I know the added cities will soon make up for it.

The difference this time is that I decided to remake a couple of the cities rather than keeping them (which is another reason I kept Bursa, which some people thought I should raze).

I'm not going to panic too much if I don't get the GL. If you fail to complete a wonder, you get gold--which, if it's a significant amount, is often every bit as good as having a couple of extra scientists for several turns, since it allows you to research at an artificially inflated rate.

So stay tuned and we'll be back at it before too long--hopefully by this weekend.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

Well, I for one am relieved your back in command of this ALC. This continues to be a great source of entertainment and of learning even for those of us who have been playing civ4 since it came out.

I suggest you build your economic base and add some workers before resuming your warring ways.

 

[Sisiutil]

Well, I for one am relieved your back in command of this ALC. This continues to be a great source of entertainment and of learning even for those of us who have been playing civ4 since it came out.

I suggest you build your economic base and add some workers before resuming your warring ways.

Thanks, but didn't I just say I was gonna do that?

 

[Preston85]

Forgive me, I get confused between what you've done and going to do cos theres so many pages of ideas hehe.

But don't you like whipping a lot? (talking about in Civ heher ) much more than I think the AI makes use of it so couldn't that be a reason for the low population?

And in the early game isn't land area / resources important to get, at least that way you have something to build up instead of little land / resources while limit's you growth?

 

[Sisiutil]

Forgive me, I get confused between what you've done and going to do cos theres so many pages of ideas hehe.

But don't you like whipping a lot? (talking about in Civ heher ) much more than I think the AI makes use of it so couldn't that be a reason for the low population?

And in the early game isn't land area / resources important to get, at least that way you have something to build up instead of little land / resources while limit's you growth?

Whipping can be fun outside of civ too. But you didn't hear that from me.

Ahem. Getting back to the subject at hand, yes, I whip quite a bit in the early game when the happiness limit is low and I need all the help I can get to catch up to the AI civs. As time goes on, I use the whip less and less, because I need my citizens to be working tiles, especially cottages, or as specialists, and the happiness limit keeps lifting. I keep running slavery as long as I can so I have the option of running it, especially to make good use of unhappy, starving, dying citizens in a recently conquered city.

I've followed that pattern in this game, but the difference here is that the happiness limit in my cities lifted VERY high VERY early on. My mindset was stuck based upon previous games situations rather than this particular one, so I now need to restrain my whipping hand and grow my cities, especially the commerce cities like the capital.

But yes, I was after territory and I've got it. I don't think the situation is as dire as everyone says--I'm in a fairly typical situation now that I've experienced in most of my games. An early war gives you a big advantage, but it takes a while to pay off. That's what I have to work on next. I'm just hoping Tokugawa and Ragnar cooperate, which is something of a tall order.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

I'm just hoping Tokugawa and Ragnar cooperate, which is something of a tall order.

No...you want Furpants and the Shogun not to cooperate.

You're still in control of a hefty piece of land though, which can yield great riches when properly cottaged. Jungles = Cottages.

 

[Thomas G.]

He means that they cooperate with HIM. I.e. that neither makes a sudden attack against Sisuitil in the immediate future. Because that would really make this game hard to win (The war might be won, but the other continent will run away with the game)

 

[Sisiutil]

But Hans makes a good point, albeit indirectly. The best way to get Ragnar and Tokugawa to leave me alone is to get them irritated with one another. Any suggestions?

 

[Zarah Neander]

But Hans makes a good point, albeit indirectly. The best way to get Ragnar and Tokugawa to leave me alone is to get them irritated with one another. Any suggestions?

Probably impossible, at least in the next centurys to come.

HR is Ragnars favourite civic and Toku is likely to run HR forever. Both get a bonus on each other for being in the pycho-nuts club and both don't put much emphasis on religion. Gifting a holy city won't work, even if one converts (a big if), my guess is, that their relations will drop to pleased.

IMO Mehmed was your natural ally, but alas, now it's too late. You'll have to maintain a delicate balance between a healty power rank rating and a economic buildup.

Pia