ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

Heh, nice retort and follow-up question there ;)
My experience is: AIs still mainly consider the power rating for a DoW; a few exceptional conditions notwithstanding. Do mind that my observations mainly stem from Protective civ experiments. Positioning multiple, highly promoted defenders in strong positions (primarily the cities) while lacking in overall amount of units for example did not seem to deter AIs from declaring on me in my games. So I can only assume this would apply to highly promoted units in general as well.
I'd say Blake or someone else with comparable modding experience would be the most suitable to answer this question though.
 
Call me a worrywart, I guess. :)

In the last game, we lucked out when the tech leader wasn't on the other continent, giving you the ability to damage the leader immeasurably and take a commanding lead.

I'm not so sure that's going to happen again. You've got so many aggressive civs on your continent, that the other one might be peacefully teching away. And if Mansa is over there . . .
 
Round 5: to 1400 AD, Part 1

An unusually long round, but we had pretty much decided to go after Kublai, so it was just a matter of getting that underway--which, because of my very low power rating, took awhile.

I started the round by using the Great Scientist for Philosophy. Taoism was founded in Hippo, and I had a tech for trading. I first went to Shaka:

ALC11_1400ADa_01.jpg


I could have then traded with Tokugawa, but since I was going to leave him alone while I went after Kublai, I wanted to give him as few advantages as possible. I had already traded Code of Laws to Toku for Monarchy. In addition, I thought I might want to bribe Tokugawa into warring with Kublai, so I needed to hold back a tech to induce him. So I traded with Kublai instead:

ALC11_1400ADa_02.jpg


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That done, I changed civics in order to produce some level 3 units, especially some Catapults with Accuracy promotions:

ALC11_1400ADa_04.jpg


Kublai captured and razed the barbarian city on the west coast, but I got the one to the northwest:

ALC11_1400ADa_05.jpg


Kublai's power rating remained high, so I realized that I needed several military techs in order to go up against him.

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Of course, these had some additional benefits. I started chain irrigating my tiles, but I delayed a civics change for a few turns in order to produce a couple more units with 2 promotions. By 1060, though, it was time.

ALC11_1400ADa_08.jpg


Checking the tech board, I could see that I was falling behind.

ALC11_1400ADa_09.jpg


Eggolas' concern about the other continent was beginning to come true, as well. Someone over there built the Hagia Sophia in 1010. When my next Great Scientist appeared, I used him to lightbulb Paper. Normally I would have settled him (I had already used another GS for an Academy), but I figured the better payoff would be a tech that I could trade for several other techs, which is exactly what I proceeded to do:

ALC11_1400ADa_10.jpg


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And if it got any or all of them distracted trying to build the University of Sankore instead of units, so much the better.

I continued acquiring military techs:

ALC11_1400ADa_13.jpg


With several units built and military techs under my belt, I checked the power graph:

ALC11_1400ADa_14.jpg


Nice to see it climbing. I crossed my fingers and hoped I was strong enough now to deter Shaka and Toku from attacking me. Kublai was evidently far ahead, but I felt sure I could take several of his cities and fend off his counter-attacks through superior tactics.

So, in 1200 AD...

ALC11_1400ADa_15.jpg


Time to die, Kublai!

To be continued...
 
Wow, that's got to be one of the latest first wars I've ever seen! I'm really curious what use the Numidian Cavalry have in this one. It's like my last game with Ramesses in which I built so many wonders that I was in no position to start a war to use the War Chariots. But how can you say 'no' to early wonders when you're Industrious AND have Stone, Marble and Copper?! :D
 
Round 5: to 1400 AD, Part 2

I started the war by attacking Kublai's southwestern cities. He had two new, small cities there just west of Hippo that made easy targets and needed to be cleared out of the way before I could move north to his core cities. I also captured a couple of Workers from him.

I was determined to give the Numidian Cavalry something to do, even if it was just mopping up after several Catapults had done their jobs:

ALC11_1400ADb_01.jpg


They were effective enough against equally obsolete units, I'll say that much.

ALC11_1400ADb_02.jpg


Otrar was razed--I couldn't be bothered to garrison it, nor to fend off cultural encroachment from both Mongolia and Japan.

Meanwhile, I continued to produce Great Scientists out of Carthage, and continued to use them to lightbulb (partially, now) techs. The next one was Education. As some of you suggested, I have been using Shaka as a source of "backfill" technologies:

ALC11_1400ADb_03.jpg


Again, if he gets preoccupied building universities instead of units, so much the better. What was worrisome was discovering that Tokugawa had already finished researching Education.

Sanchu, the next little town, suffered the fate of its neighbour. This one was tough to take, since it was on a hill. It cost me about 3 Trebuchets. But I did manage to take out several of Kublai's units and earned some promotions along the way.

ALC11_1400ADb_04.jpg


I left the units to heal for a little while, then sent them off towards Beshbalik--the first Mongolian city I wanted to keep.

Right around this time, the civs on the other continent started showing up:

ALC11_1400ADb_05.jpg


Yes, I got beaten to Liberalism, and by several turns! Yikes, look at all those techs Huayna has on me!

ALC11_1400ADb_06.jpg


Mehmed showed up not liking me at all--in fact, I'm now his "worst enemy"! All this because he's Hindu and I've been trading with my Buddhist neighbours, whom he also doesn't like. This is too bad, since as you can see, I'd be able to pick up a decent tech or two from him if he wasn't so peeved.

The third civ I had to go find myself, which as you'll see, was rather surprising.

Meanwhile, I attacked Beshbalik, and continued to use the Numidian Cavalry. As I said, there's no shame in using an old unit for mop-up duty.

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Not bad--a granary, lighthouse, and courthouse already included, it sits on top of a gold mine (which is a waste, that needs to be adjusted in the new AI), and it will eventually claim another banana and cow tile for me. Eventually.

I also earned my first Great General. I made him a Warlord with a Numidian Cavalry unit that still had one unassigned promotion. I was able to give the unit Medic I, II, and III as well as Morale for an extra movement point (very handy for a MASH unit), on top of its existing Combat I/II and Flanking I.

Even though Shaka, of all people, had won the circumnavigation race several turns before, I still sent a couple of Caravels out to explore the world and meet the seventh civ:

ALC11_1400ADb_10.jpg


It was a nice surprise to have a tech that the board leader did not. It was also encouraging to see that all three civs on that continent have different religions, but disappointing to see how they were more advanced than me. Though in some ways I didn't mind that they had Astronomy already, since it allowed me to immediately start trading with them.

Of course I used Printing Press with my Buddhist backfill buddy, Shaka:

ALC11_1400ADb_11.jpg


I'll have to be careful, though. That puts him on the track towards Riflemen, and I wouldn't be surprised if he trades it to Tokugawa.

Fortunately, if Riflemen do show up, I now have their counter:

ALC11_1400ADb_12.jpg


This is all part of my strategy of researching military techs, and ones the AI does not prioritize. Grenadiers are going to be very handy, especially since Kublai still doesn't have Gunpowder! I can't wait to get the first bomb-tossers in the field against Kublai's units.

Speaking of which, the next city on my list of targets is Tiflis, and Kublai has it well-defended:

ALC11_1400ADb_13.jpg


He also has a stack next to it, no doubt on the way to try to take Beshbalik back, consisting of 2 War Elephants, a Crossbow, a Catapult, and a Trebuchet. Nothing I can't handle, but I have to do that before I can carry on conquesting.

Now I could get some help with that:

ALC11_1400ADb_14.jpg


Shaka will also go to war with Kublai for the same price. However, I'm obviously reluctant to do that. I will probably have to take these guys on next. I'm now thinking that I'm so far behind, the only way to catch up is to win myself a big empire that can out-tech, out-grow, out-produce, and out-muscle the other continent. If the plan is to once again take over my continent, then I don't want my next two targets to easily gain a military tech--nor do I want them conquering any cities that I want. They haven't joined Kublai so far, and since I'm now slightly more powerful than either of them, I'm thinking (hoping?) that they won't. But, as always, I will yield to the wisdom of the group mind.

Kublai will buckle and give up the following for 10 turns of peace:

ALC11_1400ADb_15.jpg


But again, I am reluctant. The gold would be nice, as it would allow me to upgrade a couple of highly-promoted Numidian Cavalry to Knights. Before I can do that, I would need to get my sole source of horses back on-line; Kublai pillaged it.

Then again, I can also get booty from capturing a city, and a Grenadier should do an admirable job of protecting my sole horse tile. And Kublai is powerful--why give him 10 turns to become more so? I think the thing to do is absorb his counterattack and keep pressing him, especially once I have Grenadiers.

I will follow this with a State of the World post, but here is the saved game file:
 
The State of the World, 1400 AD

As VoiceofUnreason requested, here is a shot of the Domestic Advisor:

ALC11_1400ADc_01.jpg


Current civics:

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I think a change is due soon. Should I switch to Mercantilism? I don't even have my first Cothon built yet! :blush: But I am, according to the demographics screen, the import/export leader, and my economy needs all the help it can get. Maybe I should wait for Economics and Free Trade?

Regardless of the economic civic, I think I should build up Grenadiers and some Trebuchets and Knights in my cities' queues, switch to Vassalage and Theocracy, and churn them out. Getting this war with Kublai started took a long time, and it's dragging on because of all the units he has. His counterattacks have been focused around Hamerumptydumpty or whatever it's called--again, focusing on my sole source of horses. I've had to garrison it heavily rather than sending those units to the front. I've also had to keep Utica and Hippo well-defended in case Shaka or Toku backstab me.

The Foreign Advisor, starting with Relations:

ALC11_1400ADc_03.jpg


Resources:

ALC11_1400ADc_04.jpg


Getting some more resources from Mongolian territory would be nice--as you can see, Cyrus has a couple of things to offer, if I can only offer something back.

Technologies:

ALC11_1400ADc_06.jpg


Not bad, but certainly not great. Huayna is running away with things. The only tech I have on everybody is Chemistry. I have all four on Kublai, though, which is interesting. It means he's in 2nd place mainly based on his population and land area; he also has a few wonders. That just makes him an even more appealing target. Taking his citizens and land should push me up the board a good ways. And as I said, I'll have lots of resources to trade and plenty of cities capable of providing research, production, commerce, and so on.

So I really think the war against Kublai should continue until he's done. My concern is that he'll Vassalize himself to Tokugawa when he's nearly done for.

Active trade agreements:

ALC11_1400ADc_07.jpg


The Military Advisor:

ALC11_1400ADc_08.jpg


I should have another GG before too long. Should he become a Military Instructor for Utica, or build a Military Academy there?

The Power Graph for the last 50 turns:

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Kublai is ridiculously strong--he obviously has a lot of units, since he's behind in techs. And someone from the other continent is trading Ivory to him! No big, War Elephants are almost obsolete--I'd rather face them than Knights.

Demographics:

ALC11_1400ADc_10.jpg


Yeah, they still suck. Looking back, I think we made several mistakes in the early game: going after Archery for the UU, not axe-rushing someone (especially Tokugawa), and so on. If I'd been more aggressive earlier, I wouldn't be so far behind and needing to war so much right now.

And here's the map. I don't have enough of the other continent explored yet to make posting it worthwhile.

ALC11_1400ADc_11.jpg


I'm thinking of taking Tiflis next, then Karakorum, which contains some wonders, as I recall. I'd then like to capture Old Serai, Turfan, and New Serai, roughly in that order. I'd consider leaving Kublai with those two northern cities and vassalizing him, but that depends on what their cultural borders look like. Kublai is Creative, after all.

And as the war draws to a close, I have to be prepared for the possibility that Kublai will vassalize to someone else and draw them into the conflict. If he becomes the vassal to someone on the other continent, I'll just wipe him out. If he vassalizes to Tokugawa or Shaka--well, it might provide the excuse I need to attack them. But like I said, I'll have to be ready.

Your thoughts, as always, are welcome and eagerly awaited.
 
Hmmm... I'd say you definitely need to keep pressing and continue the war with Kublai as long as you possibly can. You're behind in tech and about the only way you can catch up is to grab more land and get those cities developed. You won't be able to do much development so long as Kublai is still hanging around.

Would you be able to achieve a Domination victory by taking out everyone on your continent? When you look at Huayna, he's definitely going to be pushing hard toward a Space Race victory and he's got a large enough tech lead to get a good jumpin that area.

Domination victory may be what you'll have to aim for at this point. So much for the aim of a peaceful victory, eh? :)
 
Would you be able to achieve a Domination victory by taking out everyone on your continent? When you look at Huayna, he's definitely going to be pushing hard toward a Space Race victory and he's got a large enough tech lead to get a good jumpin that area.

Assuming the dispute with the Khan can be resolved on favorable terms, I would expect to be able to bring home the space ship. Territory will be a big boost to the research rate, and I would expect to be able to keep Toku and Shaka on trading terms.

I took a quick look at the save. It looked to me as though there are four more targets, if they can be brought in: Tiflis, Karakaboom, Old Serai, New Serai. I wouldn't expect the others to matter very much - raze, vassal, accept surrender terms, whatever fits your mood. Then tech up.

There's a catapult just to the NW of Carthage. I think it is sitting on a city plot that you need to found at some point. You may also want some Combat Settlers?
 
Assuming the dispute with the Khan can be resolved on favorable terms, I would expect to be able to bring home the space ship. Territory will be a big boost to the research rate, and I would expect to be able to keep Toku and Shaka on trading terms.

I took a quick look at the save. It looked to me as though there are four more targets, if they can be brought in: Tiflis, Karakaboom, Old Serai, New Serai. I wouldn't expect the others to matter very much - raze, vassal, accept surrender terms, whatever fits your mood. Then tech up.

There's a catapult just to the NW of Carthage. I think it is sitting on a city plot that you need to found at some point. You may also want some Combat Settlers?
I think there are 5 cities to capture--you left out Turfan, which is the Christian holy city. It's Tabriz and Ning-Hsia which are potentially unimportant.

I'll have a look at that plot you mentioned--maybe I'll post a close-up here and we can talk about another city site.

ratrangerm--Domination is one possibility, but space race is still viable, as VoU said. I could stir up trouble on the other continent to slow them down, especially since they all have different religions.
 
"Political power grows out of a barrel of a gun."

And Huayna doesn't have one. His power rating is laughable. So if you can't get anyone on the other continent to attack him, send some cavalry there in galleons ASAP. It doesn't matter that they will all die eventually. Just set them loose around the most heavily cottaged cities and watch his GNP plummet.
 
The techs to go for Are Steel for Trading, Liberlism for the Civics, Free Speech and Free Religion... although free religion is questionable, do you want to lose the positive modifers to your aggressive close neighbours?...And Democracy, For Emancipation and possibly Universal Sufferage. Military Tradition is another dead end tech you should also reseaqrch for tech trading oppotunities, it's open up level 5 Calvery (Barracks + Stables + both Civics + Westpoint = 13xp)

Free Speech and Emancipation are important to take advantage of your financial trait... if you get Emancipation before HC, you possibly slow him down. Try and start a War in the other continent, appearantly Cyrus and HC are Buddies, Medmed is the outsider, try to persuade/bribe one of them into war with medmed, HC would be more difficult because he has many techs ahead of you but Medmed has a higher power rating compared to HC so there's a chance to slow HC down before he runs away in tech. I'd try to keep Cyrus out of the war he has no powerful economic traits so his teching would not be as powerful as yours, that and he has the same power rating as medmed.

BUT... in order to bribe any of them into war you need a tech, and enough positive modifers... currently the only thing stopping you from persuading Either HC or Cyris to declare war on Medmed is the negative Religion modifer. I say switch to free Religion for a short period fo time, bribe them into a war IF you have a slight tech lead and switch back to a religious civic if you still fear one of the AIs south of your broader will back stab you OR bribe the AIs on your continent to declare on Kubai and switch to free Religion for long enough for you to bribe the AIs on the other continent to war.

Question... I'm not sure but... did Cyrus's AI Personality change from Vanilla to Warlords? I Don't Play Civ4 Often nowdays becuase of School... and have had never played any games with Cyrus as an opponent in warlords becuase in Vanilla, Cyrus has Economic Traits (even though they were weak they were still more or less economic traits) so as long as you didn't piss him off he'd be a reliable Ally. I'm not sure about him in warlords.

I don't think all Charismatic Civs are Aggressive warmongers... I believe Cyrus is one of them... IF the makers didn't change his personality between Vanilla and Warlords, another Charismatic Civ would be Washington, you wouldn't expect him to backstab you if he was pleased with you, even though he has a warmonger trait... well that's my opinion.
 
^^^In my experience, Cyrus is one of the easiest leaders to get along with. He is one of the few leaders who will sign a defensive pact with you at "pleased" status which is one thing to keep in mind. If youre going to do a space race win, u wont want 2 have to focus on keeping your military too strong especially with a moderate size empire. I would advise you what techs to research and what to do next but it would just be repeating what Kniteowl just said.

EDIT: Just seen HC's power rating. You need to start a war involoving him ASAP, he wont be as weak as he is now again.
 
Wow, you can really build units. I can't. My power ratings are always languishing at the bottom :blush: But your teching skills could be improved ;)

Since you set off wanting to play a more peaceful game, why not stick to the objective? Fight limited wars and try to maintain the power/diplomatic balance. Go for a space or diplomatic victory. I think it would be a good demonstration for everyone if you could manage the situation and catch up in tech through shrewd diplomacy, teching and tech trading. Even if you end up losing, so what? It's been 11 ALCs and you haven't lost any. No big deal if you lose this one. The important thing in this game is to try breaking out of the mold and learn something from the experience.
 
If you stay Buddhist and bribe Shaka and Toku into the war for a mutual military struggle bonus, you'll probably be safe from a southern backstab for the remainder of the game. You can ask them to attack cities you don't want to try and prevent them seizing anything worthwhile and they'll help to thin out Khan's forces a bit.

Being financial and having the largest land area, you really don't need the added 10% to research that free religion gives you to make a difference. Having a "friendly" trading partner who won't get WFYABTA is much more useful between now and when you start racing through the space techs. You may seem to be a way behind now, but in terms of beakers it's only the equivalent of Fusion so I really wouldn't worry too much at this stage.
 
I woul take karkouroum, Tiflis, New Sarai, and Turfan solely because it is a holy city. I would then bribe The Zulu and Japanians into the war for a mutual military strife bonus, I would wait a few turns deterring any Mongolian counterattacks, and hoping that the bonus might go to 2, and then I would use the old knife point vassalization trick.
 
I woul take karkouroum, Tiflis, New Sarai, and Turfan solely because it is a holy city. I would then bribe The Zulu and Japanians into the war for a mutual military strife bonus, I would wait a few turns deterring any Mongolian counterattacks, and hoping that the bonus might go to 2, and then I would use the old knife point vassalization trick.
Which is what, exactly? :confused:

Glad to hear everyone seems to agree on Steel as the next tech. As we saw in the Qin game, it's an excellent tech for trading. Liberalism for Free Religion to improve relations with the other continent is appealing as well, even if we only adopt it temporarily.

As for my own continent, am I reading everyone right? Everyone thinks I should trade Chemistry to Shaka and Toku to get them into the war? How soon? I'm thinking that I'd like to delay that a bit so I can get something of a unit lead on them. It still strikes me a somewhat dangerous.
Wow, you can really build units. I can't. My power ratings are always languishing at the bottom :blush: But your teching skills could be improved ;)

Since you set off wanting to play a more peaceful game, why not stick to the objective? Fight limited wars and try to maintain the power/diplomatic balance. Go for a space or diplomatic victory. I think it would be a good demonstration for everyone if you could manage the situation and catch up in tech through shrewd diplomacy, teching and tech trading. Even if you end up losing, so what? It's been 11 ALCs and you haven't lost any. No big deal if you lose this one. The important thing in this game is to try breaking out of the mold and learn something from the experience.
Well, I'm behind in tech because I've built so many units instead of infrastructure like libraries, universities, markets, and grocers, so the two things are definitely related. I'm hoping to get those in place once the war is over.

I tend to find that there's a point of "critical mass" in most wars where you suddenly have enough units of the right type to see the conflict through to your chosen objectives. At that point, you can switch most of your builds to civilian ones. I don't think I've reached that stage in this war yet.
 
Sisiutil,

FWIW I played a shadow game starting with the 2280BC save that ended in a runaway space race win in 1935. Obviously there was some divergence in the way cities were founded, events occured, etc. but my game followed the same general path as yours up to this point: expansion to seven cities, Khan founds a different religion, peace prevails on the continent until Carthage attacks Mongolia, attack launched from Hippo easily captures Mongolian coastal cities followed by some regrouping before attacking into the Mongolian heartland.

I checked a 1340AD save from my game and it looks like you're facing a very similar situation to what I faced at that point. There is one significant difference though: my economy was much stronger than yours. Once my war was over I was able to pull well ahead in tech. Your economy will obviously be strengthened if you add the main Mongolian cities although I'm not sure if you'll be able to gain the tech lead. However with the addition of the Mongolian cities you'll have a massive production advantage which should assure an easy space race win.

Personally I wouldn't worry about the civs on the other continent at this point. If your war against Khan goes well none of them will pose much of a threat. The AI doesn't know how to carry out a naval invasion, and none of them has the production and tech pace to challenge you in the space race. So why start trouble over there? It'll just get you diplomatic negatives without any benefit to you. And there's even a worst case scenario in which one of the AIs actually wins the war thereby making themselves stronger through conquest. Then this civ might pose a threat. Better just to leave them in peace.

Bribing Toku and/or Shaka to enter the war obviously has its advantages (avoid the backstab, MMS benefits, additional targets to absorb some of Khan's attacks), but there are a couple of negatives to consider.

First, the AI has a tendency to pillage and there are a number of towns around Khan's core cities that you would very much like to capture in tact.

Second, if Khan at some point decides to capitulate to Toku/Shaka you will automatically make peace with Khan. This could happen at the wrong time (i.e. when culture from Khan's remaining cities is overwhelming the cities you've captured) and there wouldn't be anything you could do about it (unless you declare war on Khan and his master).

If you do decide to bring Toku in you may want to wait and see what his stack east of New Sarai does. It includes a settler and it might be heading to the unoccupied area west of Thracian. If a Japanese city gets founded there it would be a good buffer for your cities in the NE if Toku enters the war.

One thing that was a significant problem in my game which hasn't been mentioned yet is war weariness. You already have some WW in your cities and I think when you continue your advance it will grow quickly. I had a big advantage in my game because Khan built the Pyramids, so I was able to switch to Police State after capturing it. Even with the 50% WW reduction I was still seeing double digit WW in Carthage when the war ended (although I did take Khan out entirely which you probably won't do). I faced the same problem you face with limited luxuries (especially the ones that get multiplied). This meant a lot of culture to keep my cities happy and brought my tech rate down considerably. Be prepared to face the same problem.

As to resources you may be able to keep your current gpt income from trades and gain another resource. Unfortunately you'll have to wait several turns to cancel your current deals but in the meantime once the workers finish the windmill at Carthage have them replace the cottage on the last of the sugars with a plantation (the cottage hasn't been worked yet). When you can, cancel the gold for gpt deal with HC, then trade the gold to Cyrus for his wine (if its still available). Whenever HC has gpt available for trade you can then sell him that final sugar.

It seems as though you've already decided against it, but just for discussion I'll say that I wouldn't make peace with Khan at this point, mainly because of the diplo penalty you'll pay. You already have a -1 from Toku for declaring war on his friend. Toku and HC are both pleased with Khan so you will get the negative with both of them for a second DOW. And if Cyrus meets Khan before then you may well get a -1 with him. That just isn't worth the small amount of gold you'll get from Khan.

Finally a couple of minor things you might want to do when you continue:
1. Move the medic chariot from Beshbalik to Hadrametum.
2. Move the knight from Thracian to protect the wounded pike defending the wheat just in case another knight attacks from Samarquand this turn.
 
You know, (or you probably don't know seeing as how you asked), kill all of the defenders in their capitol and then check the diplomacy screen every turnand kill off reinforcements until they give in. It usually works...
 
Bribing Toku and/or Shaka ... a couple of negatives to consider.

Second, if Khan at some point decides to capitulate to Toku/Shaka you will automatically make peace with Khan. This could happen at the wrong time (i.e. when culture from Khan's remaining cities is overwhelming the cities you've captured) and there wouldn't be anything you could do about it (unless you declare war on Khan and his master).

i play with vassal states off since i get confused enough as it is. but i want to be sure i understand this. voluntarily becoming one and capitulating are different, i know that much.

if S is at war with khan but toku and shaka are not, then khan can't become a vassal to them unless S and khan are at a peace treaty, is that how it works? so that's why it's a particular concern here? if they're in on it, khan might cap to them not to us, and it might be a bad thing.

in the asoka game, mehmed became ragnar's vassal before S had finished him off, which irritated me to no end! but i think that was only possible because all parties were at peace at the time. mehmed knew he was toast so he wanted a protector (there hadn't been a ragnar vs. mehmed fight that i recall).
 
Here's a bit about vassals:

- if civ A is at peace with everybody and just agrees to become a vassal to state B, nothing else happens; civ A declares war on anybody at war with B

- if civ A is at war with civ B and at peace with everybody else, if civ A becomes a vassal of civ B, they make peace; civ A declares war on anybody at war with B

- if civ A is at war with civ B and at peace with everybody else, if civ A becomes a vassal of civ C, C automatically goes to war with B

- if civ A is at war with civ B and civ C, civ B and C are at peace with each other, and civ A becomes a vassal to civ C, then a peace treaty is automatically signed between A and B

Not sure what happens when multiple civs are at war with each other, but that's not very likely to happen here anyway.
___

In short: we don't want Khan to become a vassal of any third party not at war with him. We either bribe Toku or Shaka to go to war too and then accept that Khan might become their vassal before we'd want it (still cities to capture), or just hope Toku and Shaka don't accept Khan as a peacetime vassal.
 
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