ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

[Sisiutil]

Let's also not forget the opportunity to extort techs for peace, a game I could play with Kublai.

VoU's suggestion for getting the National Epic built in Carthage to max out Great Scientists is a good one. I could very well lose that marble to pillaging once hostilities commence. Keshiks make frighteningly good pillagers.

I also think it will make sense to at least put a barracks in Carthage and have it produce a few units. I'm going to need them.

At first, I mainly plan on producing Catapults and Spearmen, along with a few Numidian Cavalry. I'll leave aside Swordsmen and Axemen at first, since they'll be obsolete pretty soon. Once I have some of the medieval techs, I'll produce some Macemen and Pikemen and, of course, Trebuchets. A few Longbowmen to hold the new cities will be in order as well.

 

[KMadCandy]

Also, I think you're underestimating the AI research.. Even if Shaka is boxed in and won't expand from there, he's certainly capable of some research. Not the leading edge, but at least backfills. It's always nice to have some backwards civ around who you can trade obsolete techs for reasonable backfills

oh i'm totally underestimating, i don't play on monarch, i'm a wuss. S knows that and takes everything i say with a grain of salt. and your answers are fantastic, you've helped me a ton already!

ps i'm really not ready to bump up my own difficulty. hubby says i should but he hardly plays, what would he know? i did download blake's better AI today tho and am gonna try that next game, to get more of a challenge by making them smarter but not loading them up with advantages. wish me luck!

 

[Sisiutil]

Another consideration: the route of conquest. At first I was thinking of taking Thracian and heading west, but after I mentioned pillaging in my last post, I now think it makes more sense to strike out west from Hippo. (Shooting from the Hippo, as it were. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. ) That should allow me to strike at Kublai's core cities faster. If I pull in Tokugawa as a war ally (which I will try to do), it would give him very little to capture, leaving just the 'mutual struggle' benefit, which is what I'm mainly after.

If I can quickly take Beshbalik and the Mongolian capital, Karakorum, before Kublai really knows what's happening, I'll have weakened him considerably, making the rest of the conquest that much easier. Taking the capital may also deprive him of his sole source of horses--it doesn't look like that one in the northeast tundra is even within his borders yet. Uncarved block is right, though--I'll get that Scout moving through Mongolian territory lickety-split. I was facing several encroaching barbs for some time, hence his temporary fog-busting usage.

It also occurred to me to get back to VoU on a couple of points. Yes, the library in Hippo is partly to fend off Tokugawa's borders--my riverside cottages are under threat. Don't be surprised if I also build a monastery soon to help it. Also, Hippo has the potential to be a good commerce/science city, so the library serves another purpose there, and all that food may allow me to run a scientist or two. And "Domestic Advisor Screen Shot" is four words. But I'll get one next time.

 

[uncarved block]

If I may, you also have a Warrior in Zululand going home, when he would probably be more useful taking a vacation. Do you plan on having enough $$$ to upgrade any time soon? Until then, the info he'll unveil is well worth the 1G/turn for being outside your borders. I played a couple turns (about 15) so I don't want to say too much-- but will say that you could get through all of Shaka's territory to the south, and most of Toku's, in ten turns or so.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

I'm leaning towards the Khan right now as military target, though the fact Shaka has the Pyramaids is something to keep in mind. I'd deal with him next and try and seal Toku off or then wipe him out, depending on the victory you want to pursue. If it's something peaceful, I'd leave him alone and try to use him later as a deterrant in case there're any psychos out there in the fog.

Oh, another point...how much tundra is up there? If there's a lot, I'd leave it to Kublai and make him capitulate, if possible. That way, you don't have any unwelcome squatters, and you still have access to the resources. I think it also works out as less upkeep than plunking down your own cities in the frozen wastes..

 

[Sisiutil]

I'm leaning towards the Khan right now as military target, though the fact Shaka has the Pyramaids is something to keep in mind. I'd deal with him next and try and seal Toku off or then wipe him out, depending on the victory you want to pursue. If it's something peaceful, I'd leave him alone and try to use him later as a deterrant in case there're any psychos out there in the fog.

Oh, another point...how much tundra is up there? If there's a lot, I'd leave it to Kublai and make him capitulate, if possible. That way, you don't have any unwelcome squatters, and you still have access to the resources. I think it also works out as less upkeep than plunking down your own cities in the frozen wastes..

The latter paragraph is an excellent point and suggestion, and Kublai would become the first vassal of the ALC series...

As for the suggestion in your first paragraph--well, we'll see. Let's worry about Kublai first, then decide the fate of the glimmer twins after that.

 

[Kietharr]

I also have to suggest ganging up on the Khan in a holy war. It will get you some extra friendly bonuses with toku and shaka and let you expand. Shaka is unlikely to get any land from it, and a war would put him in a bad position, shortly after knocking Khan down into either a vassal, nothing, or a tundra/ice/desert state, I suggest rushing shaka. If you're lucky, he will absolutley jump at the oppritunity to kill somthing and send a good chunk of his army north. The Khan should inflict a good ammount of damage on any army up there fighting him, so your troops up north could finish off whatever shaka sends up.

I suggest completely destroying shaka or decimating his ability to do anything in the first swoop, because if he has any chance to make himself a thorn in your side, he'll take it after being declared war on. Tokugawa is the same way, in my last game with toku, I took one of his cities he settled on my private continent and he spent the rest of the game building whatever ships and military he could focusing on taking it back.

 

[Ajidica]

sistuil, i have been reading your threads and they are very interesting. but i have a request for you. please dont do domination victory this time. all over wins have been domination and it is getting really boring. please do either conquest or diplomatic.(own everyone who doesnt like and get diplo that way)

 

[Sisiutil]

sistuil, i have been reading your threads and they are very interesting. but i have a request for you. please dont do domination victory this time. all over wins have been domination and it is getting really boring. please do either conquest or diplomatic.(own everyone who doesnt like and get diplo that way)

Since my aim is to eventually shoot for a peaceful late game, I'll probably either go for diplomatic or space race this time. I've been avoiding almost all the wonders, so cultural is extremely unlikely.

The ALC wins have shown some variation so far:

Montezuma: Domination
Mao: Space Race
Qin: Space Race
Hatshepsut: Domination
Victoria: Cultural
Louis: Domination
Frederick: Domination
Alexander: Conquest
Huayna: Diplomatic
Asoka: Space Race

So 4 domination, 3 space race, 1 cultural, 1 conquest, 1 diplomatic. Most of the wins, though not a majority, have been domination, though you could argue conquest is just a variation on that theme, so I see your point.

But remember, if you find the thread boring, you don't have to read it!

 

[NaZdReG]

Sisuitil,

alas you have missed the window where the UU would have been at maximum effectiveness. you are quickly going to be dealing with samurai.. time to attack the mongols I think as they are now religious enemies. I would bribe shaka to attacking the mongols.. they would take shakas northwestern city.. which you could recapture without going to war with shaka.

or wipe him out, since he has pyramids and you have GL.. would set you up nicely w/ representation.

either way you're in a good position but its about to be a tough fight

NaZ

 

[Eggolas]

Go Go Gadget!

Or, as Arte Johnson would say, Verrrry Interesting.

I sense a late, mid-game crux here, but it's still early. The next round should illuminate.

Good luck.

P.S. I concur with the choice of Epic speed next time.

 

[Sisiutil]

The main advantage to building a few NC now is that free Flanking I promotion, which will be preserved when they are upgraded to Knights and Cavalry.

Flanking I/II was proving handy last night as I played part-way through the round. The NCs managed to survive battles with low odds, damaging the enemy unit enough for another unit to finish them. They don't do collateral damage, of course, but the NCs are reminding me of China's Cho-Ko-Nus, which I've used in a similar way.

 

[NaZdReG]

well thoughts for next game w/ them would be to get HBR before alpha.. you could have been using them the whole time post alpha.. but might not have gotten the GL as a price for that.. military or building always seem at odds with each other

NaZ

 

[Sisiutil]

well thoughts for next game w/ them would be to get HBR before alpha.. you could have been using them the whole time post alpha.. but might not have gotten the GL as a price for that.. military or building always seem at odds with each other

NaZ

Not necessarily. It's just that there are several very good units available (Chariots, Axemen, Swordsmen) through other technologies (Animal Husbandry, Bronze Working, Iron Working) that provide so many other benefits beyond those units themselves--i.e., non-military benefits like the slavery civic, pastures, chopping, mined production resource tiles, and so on. HBR, like Archery, is a bit of a diversion. Stables do make the tech more attractive in Warlords, but you could still forgo HBR until quite late--as I usually do, which probably didn't help here.

In fact, I already regard the Hunting/Archery pursuit as a mistake. It would have been better to have gone after Polytheism and Priesthood and chopped the Oracle like I usually do; I would have been in a stronger position for tech trading, and it would be easier to churn out a Great Prophet for the Taoist shrine at some point. Since I had to build Monuments in practically every city, Stonehenge would not have been a bad idea either. The 'henge and the Oracle usually provide me with 2 GPs in a game--one for a shrine, the other for a tech.

Of course, that path makes it hard to go after a UU based upon the Horse Archer, since you have to pursue two technologies (Archery and HBR) that aren't on that path and that most players leave for the AI to pursue. Going to Epic speed will probably help--maybe when I play a game as one of the Mongolians I'll be better able to give the Keshiks their day in the sun, unlike the poor NCs in this game.

 

[Torvoni]

Well ... I have been lurking on these boards for years now.

Many thanks to all of the thread participants for an excellent series. I have enjoyed this particular series so much that I joined the web site.

Since my civ4 skills are way below the requisite level to provide any deep insights, I'm just here to offer thanks and encouragement.

 

[NaZdReG]

Sisuitil,

ahh I had forgotten that the NC required archery as well. thats kinda dumb since they nerfed the hell out of HBR for no reason.

I do agree with you about the merits of other techs.. and that diverting to archery might have been a waste of effort. well get what use you can out of the NC and move on to knights I guess

NaZ

 

[Sisiutil]

Sisuitil,

ahh I had forgotten that the NC required archery as well. thats kinda dumb since they nerfed the hell out of HBR for no reason.

Here's a thought: Horse Archers require Archery. What if NCs didn't? (In their animations, they're using spears, not arrows, after all.) This would balance out their reduced strength, the way Jaguars can be built without iron. And you might actually get a chance to use them...

 

[JoeBlade]

In light of the recent developments and suggestions of other players I too would be inclined to target KK first now. Well, as may have shone through my previous posts he's the sort of leader I tend to look upon with a 'what excuse would be suitable to attack him?' state of mind regardless

Shaka's pyramids, while tempting, are not all that valuable to a financial leader. You'll want to be mainly growing cottages for commerce purposes. As such, the main advantage of that wonder - early representation - is minimal to you. And as others have rightfully pointed out Shaka's UU would also be the ideal to counter KK's UU should you be able to ally him.
Toku would've been my choice target if it hadn't been for your recently settled cities. By the looks of the situation you've acquired sufficient resources for a while; if war is to serve any purpose now I'd say it's additional cities. Esp. considering how tough Toku can be when aiming to conquer his cities he's lost a lot of his appeal now.

One point though: while I like the idea of highly specialised veteran units (with Hannibal's Charismatic trait) it begs the question 'to what end?'
Training units up to level 5-6 only to peacefully settle them for 2/3rd of the game seems pointless, and your initially expressed intention of a less war-oriented game would suggest precisely such a course of action.
Keep in mind that promotions have no value in the power graph; i.e., they will not serve as a deterrent for war-savvy civs. Unless you're planning to put those highly promoted units to actual use their long-term value is virtually nil.

 

[NaZdReG]

well pass it along to firaxis for the next patch . it should actually be axes not spears but whatever. they're not actually HA's. I think dropping archery from their req would be really good idea.

looking forward to the next update while I play a game w/ germany. dropped a copy of my current save in the omg futurehermit opening thread if you're curious

NaZ

 

[Sisiutil]

One point though: while I like the idea of highly specialised veteran units (with Hannibal's Charismatic trait) it begs the question 'to what end?'
Training units up to level 5-6 only to peacefully settle them for 2/3rd of the game seems pointless, and your initially expressed intention of a less war-oriented game would suggest precisely such a course of action.
Keep in mind that promotions have no value in the power graph; i.e., they will not serve as a deterrent for war-savvy civs. Unless you're planning to put those highly promoted units to actual use their long-term value is virtually nil.

This begs a question, in my mind.

We all know promotions don't count towards your power rating. However, it's considered Civ common sense to ensure that you have your border cities well-defended--so the AI can see you will present opposition. Is this valid? Does the AI take the forces it can "see" directly opposing it into consideration? And if so, do the promotions of the "border guards" figure into their calculations? Does anyone know enough about the AI to comment?