ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa

[Syndrome Zed]

I'd go for a land city (you don't know fishing, do you?).
Pigs + FP + elephants (+ incense later) by settling on a desert tile would make a very nice fogbusting city with enough food to work the incense lol: never happened to me) and room for some cottages.

If you manage to expand fast enough, your fishing city will be possible still a bit later.

Of course, it's higher maintenance but I stick with the rexing strat.
If you want to take KK out of the game, be sure to keep his cities .
The bad part is you don't even have barracks.
So you're really far away from a medic too.

I agree with Cabert about the city planning - take the inland city first, especially if you think everyone's favorite Queen Gone Wild is close by. How long did it take for her to reach you? It may seem a little far right now but you can leverage your Gems for the extra coinage to make up for the higher maintenance costs. In the meantime, keep a close eye on Kublai but maybe try and get Fish City's Ivory Towers settled before you really get into the military buildup for attacking him.

EDIT: OK, so I'm a bit behind the curve today. I guess I should say I agree with EVERYONE who said take the stone city first.

 

[Sisiutil]

One additional concern I have with settling a city so far away from the capital at this point is my complete lack of protective military units. By the time I finish building either a Skirmisher or a Chariot, the Settler will either have founded the city or been eaten.

Cabert's reminder that I don't have Fishing yet threw some cold water on my coastal city plans. That's what I get for playing as Liz, Julius, and Augustus so often when I'm off-line. Stuge's green city looks very appealing--it may claim the stone through a border pop if it can generate enough culture. Certainly in time for U of S and the SM.

Or I could follow shadow2k's recommendation and move green city 1 E to get Ivory right away. That's tempting because I might want to have a go at Stonehenge in that city, and an ivory camp in the first ring would provide a decent number of hammers to that end. (Don't worry about stone for Stonehenge, by the way; I find I never have Masonry and a quarry in time for it.) Winston Hughes made a good point about letting reason rule over emotion when it comes to choosing an opponent, so I think we have some time to spare on something like Stonehenge. That would leave the capital with the job of producing Settlers, Workers, and units for a while.

 

[Seipheroth]

Nice starting point, especially with ponies and the suggestive low hanging fruit.

City placement: I like Stuge’s dot map. Impressive blue city placement. I would not move green city. If you want stone early, then you would have to add one more city to the claim the Stone in the West. I would suggest that this city goes 2S and 1W of the stone.

War: I realize we’re not warmongering, but how about an early chariot, skirmisher rush on KK? I’ve never tried this combo, but I would like to see if it can be successful with the right type of promotions. You could follow it up with an elephant/cata war. Two wars may put you behind in techs at first, but you would probably be set for land after that, and could tech-out like your name was Max Headrum.

University of Sankore: I put UofS in the same city as where I have built the GLib. However, GLib is usually in a city with minimal production and by the time I finish GLib there are few trees to cut; thus, if you do decide you want GLib and UofS in the same city try preserving and Engineer to build the UofS for you.

 

[Torvoni]

Just for easy reference, here are the wonders that benefit from stone:

• Angkor Wat
• Chichen Itza
• Notre Dame
• Stonehenge
• The Hanging Gardens
• The Pyramid
• The Spiral Minaret
• Great Wall
• University of Sankore

 

[Validator]

I agree that stuge's green dot looks like the best spot for a second city and that there's really no reason to go out of your way to get stone now.

I suppose the bigger issue that needs to be decided at this point is how you're planning to play the early game. Are you going to try to peacefully expand as much as possible or are you going to go for an early attack on Kublai? It's also possible that this decision may be taken out of your hands. If Kublai continues expanding into "your" territory and if Isabella also expands toward you then there may be no option but to fight an early war.

With that in mind why did you choose to research pottery? You have lots of jungle to deal with, no copper and the possibility of an early war. I would have thought IW would have been a much better option. And since horses have already appeared in Timbuktu's fat cross, you can't expect iron to also appear there. It would definitely be helpful to know where iron is before deciding on a third city site.

I'm also not sure why you decided to improve the horses before the pigs. The horse tile is a lower value tile to work than the pigs and the gems and maybe even the rice, so the city is going to have to grow significantly before it will be worked. And since you researched archery you really don't need to build chariots at this point.

I know you prefer not to repeat strategies in ALC games, but I should point out that a Construction bee-line may be the best strategy for this game.

 

[Ajidica]

Sistuil, almost everyone of your last game have involved you warring until the never end. i would like to see if it is possible to not volunerily go into a war after the middle ages. of course, we all know it is legal to go to war if Monty or Tokugawa are being cranky.

 

[Strato]

Initially I would have thought moving the green city 1SW, making the most of the two hills that will fall inside the city square, plus the stone. As a city, it should be well suited to production, if you go for an early game war. However, that does require a fair bit of work and to get up and running. The wheat would help to some extent, but would it have enough to compensate for those squares not food neutral? I haven't got the figures in front of me for wheat right now.

Also, if you don't have IW, then who knows, there could well be an iron lurking around somewhere, though given the strong start position, I'd doubt it because of the strength of the position. Surely the game is going to make you work for something?

 

[Sisiutil]

With that in mind why did you choose to research pottery? You have lots of jungle to deal with, no copper and the possibility of an early war. I would have thought IW would have been a much better option. And since horses have already appeared in Timbuktu's fat cross, you can't expect iron to also appear there. It would definitely be helpful to know where iron is before deciding on a third city site.

A good point. I was following Cabert's suggested tech path automatically, but should have started reconsidering. I could always switch to IW and come back to Pottery later. What's everyone's thoughts on that?

 

[flamingzaroc121]

you want the gems ASAP dont you? if you do you need ironworking. but how busy will your workers be if they dont have cottages to build

i really dont have a side it is all up to you

 

[slaze]

Stuge's green, as is, is the best bet. It fits well with the fish later on, and it compromises anything around it.

And then what to do with Kublai's overzealous placement of Beshbalik. It'll take him a long while to go any farther east of that-he's got alot to fill. If you want to keep his city as is (which doesn't look that bad, although it screams creative civ) I'd move blue 2SW. Its' enough out of the jungle, which you should stay away from for a little bit. City four finally gets the fish maybe, but it's hard to look too far ahead. 1N of the banana may also be a good reactionary city to whoever wants the dyes but then 1 south of patagonia's white looks like the spot. In that case it may be best to just take it(Kumba Saleh)-there's enough forests and hills to work with in all that jungle. But depending on how it plays out, 1N of banana might be a consideration at some point.

Skirmishers will handle any barb problems, and then once construction comes online you may want to rethink foreign policy. (Kublai)

 

[Norton II]

you want the gems ASAP dont you? if you do you need ironworking. but how busy will your workers be if they dont have cottages to build

i really dont have a side it is all up to you

He's got the gems already--they weren't covered by jungle.

 

[Gwil]

I'd still plump for iron working - it can make a nice trading tech, and if you opt for an early war you're likely to keep the capital of Mongolia (or whoever ?) expecting to clear jungles around it should be in your mind. By the time the war is over, pottery will be in your hands, along with 2/3 workers to cottage where appropriate.

Then writing and Alphabet come, and you have a stabilised economy and good tech trading leverage. Or perhaps i'm being too vaguely optimistic

A recent game where I started 8 east of Huayna and perhaps 15 south of Brennus has really spurred on my early war/land and tech securing ideals.

 

[Melon Head]

I will second the vote on IW instead of pottery. IW gets you a look at iron, which can help in city placement, and swords. If you want to attack early, grab a couple of swords with the axes you're making. Pottery gets you cottages and granaries. Cottages aren't that important yet, as you have the gems (normally I'd go for them, but I'd rex now and cottage in a little bit). Granaries are good stuff, but I think you have some other things that you can make in the mean time; settlers/workers (which don't need granaries) and possibly some military. I think you'll have pottery before you want to make granaries, even if you go for IW first.

As far as the capitol goes, don't be too eager to whip - you have five amazing tiles, and then bananas once you get calendar. Make sure that you stay at least size 5 - two gems = major research (each of them is almost as good as the palace building, and together they're as good as second capitol city), the foodstuffs give you the ability to grow very fast IF you have the :happy: to whip, and the horses are just good tiels. As such, I'd whip down to five pop, maybe, just maybe, four.

 

[popejubal]

A good point. I was following Cabert's suggested tech path automatically, but should have started reconsidering. I could always switch to IW and come back to Pottery later. What's everyone's thoughts on that?

You already know that you don't have easy access to copper. With such a large amount of input on deciding where to build your cities, Iron Working seems like an important tech to chase early.

After you know where the local iron is, deciding where to place your 3rd, 4th and 5th cities will be a lot easier. Also, being able to defend those cities will be easier when you have Spearmen, Axemen, Skirmishers and Chariots than just Skirmishers and Chariots alone.

Plus, don't you want those Macemen to beat down on your neighbors? Find out where the Iron is now and strike while its hot.

 

[ratrangerm]

OK, having looked again at the BFC and what people have to say about getting IW... I agree with them.

The way I see it, you want Timbuktu to grow to size 5 before whipping. You will be wanting to work pastured Pigs, farmed Rice, two mined Gems and pastured Horses. That gives you a pretty darn good mix of food and production, good for cranking out Settlers and Workers and whipping military units.

That means you won't need to be building cottages for a while. Sure, you want to use Mansa's Financial trait, but Gems are accomplishing that enough that cottages can wait for now.

And since you are wanting to take out Kublai, you need a better option than what you have right now, so get to IW and see if you can access Iron easily.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

He's got the gems already--they weren't covered by jungle.

oh yeah. when he said they were covered up by jungle i thought he meant the gems but he meant the bananas

whoops

 

[Obsydian]

I think you should concentrate on immediate priorities:

*Isabella is the closest to you, expand towards her first to box her in. You may even pick up buddism – the effect of which could see Isabella focus her aggression on your neighbours. The green dot on Stuge’s dot map is a good 2nd city spot. Better than 1E of the green dot simply because you wont be sharing land with the pink dot city.
*You don’t have fishing so don’t worry about settling on the coast yet. The pink dot city spot north of the capital should be safe where it is.
*Focus on expansion. There is still a lot of land up for grabs. Build settlers/workers, not wonders. Land is power.
*Go for pottery over Iron working first. 4 reasons for this: (1) There is no immediate threat of war and you should plant cottages sooner rather than later, it will help with the costs of expanding.
(2) You don’t have enough land covered to expect an iron resource to pop up inside your borders, making iron working less of an immediate priority over pottery.
(3) You can research iron after pottery, by the time you are ready to place your 3rd city, you should be able to see where iron is on the map. You may want to build a worker first and then a settler to time it right.
(4) Focus on your strength of having a bonus to commerce – make more cottages.

 

[Killroyan]

Crap I wanted to suggest the 1W spot of the lower elephants and I only see now that Kublai is already there. Kublai has to go because that spot is to sweet with 2 elephants, 1 cow and 1 rice at a river. I suggest to take out Kublai first. Grrrrrr.

About the capital, now all that is missing is iron and you are set. 3 food resources, horses and 2 gem mines. Get the elephants online and you can have a size 6/7 city in no time with more then enough production. Getting iron working next gets my vote.

The first city you should settle should get the upper elephants. If there is no iron present you will need to make a cat/phant stack. Now get the second round going.

BTW your capital rocks!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cabert]

A good point. I was following Cabert's suggested tech path automatically, but should have started reconsidering. I could always switch to IW and come back to Pottery later. What's everyone's thoughts on that?

I'm very flattered but at the time I didn't know :
- that you had no copper
- that you intended to rush a neighbour.
My suggestion was pursuing a goal of rapid expansion.
If you're not going to expand with settlers, the whole thing is wrong.

I would still go for pottery for the reasons obsydian mentions, then IW then straight MC (IW makes MC cheaper!).

I think you should concentrate on immediate priorities:

*Go for pottery over Iron working first. 4 reasons for this:
(1) There is no immediate threat of war and you should plant cottages sooner rather than later, it will help with the costs of expanding.
(2) You don’t have enough land covered to expect an iron resource to pop up inside your borders, making iron working less of an immediate priority over pottery.
(3) You can research iron after pottery, by the time you are ready to place your 3rd city, you should be able to see where iron is on the map. You may want to build a worker first and then a settler to time it right.
(4) Focus on your strength of having a bonus to commerce – make more cottages.

 

[Pogel]

I like stuge's dotmap, though I would only found the northern green and pink cities (possibly only green) before taking on Khan with the aim of taking his rice/cows/nellie/sugar city, which is prime real-estate. After that it's a question of whether to wipe him out or just cripple him. I suspect the latter might be easier with just chariots & skirmishers - they seem like a very good pillaging combo.

The other advantage of taking pottery early is that you need it for granaries - which are a more significant factor than cottages at this stage as you'll want to both whip and grow cities.

The early war with Khan will allow you to expand to the west. If you can secure stuge's cities, Khan's city and a banana/horses/dye city that will give you 6 very good cities for the core of your empire. Build plenty of workers, though.