ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

[Kietharr]

I say take and either keep or burn the last 2 northern mansa cities, as has been said they'll cause culture issues with captured English cities. Bismarck isn't a zealot so you'll still get a -1 for your English war, but who cares how the next person in line to be crushed under your heel feels? You could do a shock and awe raid to attempt to vassalize monty, but from my experience he refuses vassalization till he has 2 or 3 cities left with tiny garrisons, and you don't want to pay maint for cities over on his continent.

I predict that the general consensus will be take those last 2 northern malinese cities then continue your war against the English. Now you can use Montezuma for your GM economy as it's likely that you will need to kill everyone off on your continent. Another thought, depending on leader personalities you could try to vassalize all of the remaining civs for conquest, but Winnie and Monty are tough nuts to crack as far as vassalizing goes.

Oh, assuming that monty dosn't share a religion with you i'd expect a giant stack of midevil era units popping up in your core area sooner or later, be ready for it. EDIT: Oh, looking back on the post monty has no religion. Send a galley over to convert him ASAP before some crappy religion spreads to him. Keeping him happy isn't nessicary to your survival but it will keep him from making a pest of himself while you're conquering the world.

 

[KMadCandy]

hahaha about monty. i found it interesting that war with mansa was white but war with bismarck was red *giggle*.

i'm with cabert. take mansa as a vassal now and don't take the city he's offering. even if he won't put offer drama instead, just take the city out of the bargain, it'll be more trouble than it's worth if it's all the way over there. i prefer beating up churchill soonish rather than waiting too long.

However, should I capture those 2 northern Malinese cities or leave them with him? They are pressing a bit on Kumbi Saleh's borders, but not oppressively. Mansa's southern cities, with the exception of the horse/pig city I initially coveted, kind of suck, lessening his worth as a vassal and tech source considerably. And having my vassal's cities closer to my next opponents' cities than my own gives me a convenient buffer. So is option a the best one?

There is, of course, the land % needed for a domination win to consider as well; remember Mansa's land only counts 50% towards my victory. So maybe I should take those 2 northern cities to boost my land ownership? Decisions, decisions...

as already mentioned, the culture won't be an issue on KS's borders, as the master you control the tiles in your fat cross once you expand. i suppose the main factors for the decision are
-how much will having the buffer help you
-if mansa keeps them but loses them to churchill how much does that slow you down
-how long will taking them from mansa, and then preparing new or moving old troops up to protect them delay you in starting up with churchill

yes the tiles would be worth more for domination if they're yours not MM's, then again he'll have better territory to tech with (and then trade with you) if they stay his not yours. overall the game will be faster the sooner we go for churchill. in my own games i have this "i have to be really really really ready before i declare war" thing, i'm so over-prepared when i do it's ridiculous. but since it's you playing, not me, i'm leaning towards soon, as in heal up make some shiny cannon and go! i just don't know how to judge about the buffer and the impact (or probability) of losing the buffer cities if you do let MM keep them for that purpose.

Oh, assuming that monty dosn't share a religion with you i'd expect a giant stack of midevil era units popping up in your core area sooner or later, be ready for it. EDIT: Oh, looking back on the post monty has no religion. Send a galley over to convert him ASAP before some crappy religion spreads to him. Keeping him happy isn't nessicary to your survival but it will keep him from making a pest of himself while you're conquering the world.

excellent idea. also might be worth having a couple of boats (well, depends on the size of his island and how much LoS you can get into his cities) to see if he sends out a fleet, and redirect it to another target. i think it was actually you i learned that trick from even for that tho you don't need astronomy, and caravels will work for the GMs too.

 

[pigswill]

If you're going for a domination victory by capturing the continent then you may as well go for a peace treaty without capitulation because its going to take a while for Mansa to be a threat (even as someone's vassal). Polish off the English then come back to finish off Mansa before turning on Germany.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

i would take one of his northern cities and then vassalize him because w/o those cities he has absolutley nothing

 

[aelf]

You built the Parthenon in 695AD and researched Chemistry in 1166AD What a waste!

Why didn't you go for MT first instead? After all, you have Gers and some veteran Keshiks to upgrade. Cavalry would be just as good at taking out Mansa, even if you had to wait longer for them.

Ah, well. It's too late anyway

 

[ratrangerm]

See if Mansa will give you Drama instead of that city. Maybe coax a little more gold out of him as well. If not, take another of Mansa's cities and see if you can get it from him them. I'd say, though, that you have a good chance of getting Drama from him now if you take the city he offers out of the deal.

Go for Music (either trade for it, or if you can research it quickly yourself, go for it) then head to Military Tradition. Cavalrys, Cannons and Grenadiers will be a combination that will be tough for Churchill to beat.

And yes, use the GS for an Academy.

 

[Morgrad]

Sisuitil - I can't tell you just how much these threads have entertained and educated me. I just discovered the ALC games a couple days ago, and I've read through the first three so far.

Absolutely fantastic stuff.

As for this game, I'd say vassalize Mansa now - he can still keep you in tip-top tech shape as a trading partner as you eliminate England and Germany. If you choose to take the two northern cities, I say wipe him out completely to ensure landmass for your domination victory.

The other main benefit of vassailzing him now is that Churchhill is bound to waste some units attacking Mansa, and that can't be anything but good for you.

 

[Oralelk]

One of the key points of vassalizing Mansa in the first place was to make him do research for you. From that perspective, the key number for your empire's research speed is the sum of the total numbers of beakers that you and Mansa can produce each turn (at least if you make sure that he always researches something else than you). This joint research output will be maximized if Mansa gets to keep as many cities as possible, as (a) the sum of your city upkeep costs and Mansa's city upkeep costs will be lower than if you owned all the cities, and (b) Mansa is financial and you aren't, and so each tile that he works will contribute more commerce to your joint research capacity. So this would mean to leave his northern cities alone, and if you want to be radical, perhaps even to gift him cities.

I don't have a lot of experience with vassals, but how realistic is it that you don't even have to trade for tech with him but could force him to "spare them for a good friend" or some such?

Also, if I read Robi D's Demographics Screen Explained post correctly, it is unsurprising that your GNP sucks, because this figure takes unit and city upkeep costs into account. Thus courthouses should help, whereas banks won't (but of course they're a good idea anyway). The Forbidden Palace would also come in really handy at this point. Do you have plans about it? Or did I just miss it?

 

[Melon Head]

I agree with the previous poster about vassalizing Mansa. He gets more research than you for two reasons: first, he's financial, and second, he's the AI on a higher diff. his discounts become your discounts if he researches for you.

Also, don't worry about his culture causing you problems. In Warlords 1.61, the patch adjusted vassals such that if one of your BFC's is in conflict with a vassal's culture, you automatically win. This means that you'll never have to worry about tile loss to Mansa. Unfortunately, if his culture is big enough, he might be able to revolt & potentially flip cities even as they work their artificially inflated BFC. That said, I don't think it's a big fuss; he's more valuable as a vassal to you.

Diplomatically it'll be fine, too. Work up a few trading bonuses, the shared religion bonus, as well as the bonus from declaring on Churchill and/or Bismarck, and you'll be golden.

 

[namliaM]

In Warlords 1.61,

Nitpicking I know, but what ???

 

[Oralelk]

I agree with the previous poster about vassalizing Mansa. He gets more research than you for two reasons: first, he's financial, and second, he's the AI on a higher diff. his discounts become your discounts if he researches for you.

Yes, the discounts are probably an even bigger factor than anything else. And upon finding this thread, which speculates on city upkeep costs in the context of vassals, I take my point (a) (joint city upkeep costs are lower if vassal gets to keep cities) back. It seems that you pay city upkeep for your vassal's cities as if they were your own, so the sum of the upkeep costs would be higher than if you conquered his cities outright.

Nevertheless, assuming you can reliably get all the techs you want out of a vassal, and assuming you don't let him grow beyond 50% of your size, it might be beneficial in terms of research output to gift him some of his former cities right back. You probably don't want to do this here, because it would delay the domination conditions, but I wonder if this is something that would make sense in a space race.

 

[cabert]

Yes, the discounts are probably an even bigger factor than anything else. And upon finding this thread, which speculates on city upkeep costs in the context of vassals, I take my point (a) (joint city upkeep costs are lower if vassal gets to keep cities) back. It seems that you pay city upkeep for your vassal's cities as if they were your own, so the sum of the upkeep costs would be higher than if you conquered his cities outright.

Nevertheless, assuming you can reliably get all the techs you want out of a vassal, and assuming you don't let him grow beyond 50% of your size, it might be beneficial in terms of research output to gift him some of his former cities right back. You probably don't want to do this here, because it would delay the domination conditions, but I wonder if this is something that would make sense in a space race.

you can't do this
it's always redded out

 

[Yakk]

I believe you pay upkeep, but not civic costs, on his cities.

Civic costs are equal to upkeep costs normally.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

When I looked at Timbuktu's city screen, I experienced a monumental disappointment:

I didn't know whether to LMAO or vomit after reading that, so I laughed til I puked instead.

As for the game, if you want Mansa to do any research for you, he's going to need those two northern cities.

I say just vassalize him now and try and get drama - if culture starts to be a problem, you can always build culture in those cities or run up the slider for a few turns, or maybe throw down a couple artist spec's for a bit. But if you leave him the cities in the south, it's just the crud on the bottom of his shoe and he won't have any money to research with.

 

[curtadams]

On getting a great prophet - given how many cities are Buddhist and Timbuktu's ability to construct money boosters, I figure a great prophet is worth about 50 gold a turn, so it's probably a much better deal than a great merchant. Whether it's better to put some temples in Bibracte and hope to get lucky or to make another city squeeze a prophet out past Bibracte is something I can't calculate.

I would be inclined to vassalize now that you have a clear diplomatic path to attack Churchill. One enemy at a time, and those cities will get you a lot more economic benefit in Mansa's hands from his research discounts, lowered upkeep, and trade routes. That will also reduce the value of a great merchant.

 

[cabert]

On getting a great prophet - given how many cities are Buddhist and Timbuktu's ability to construct money boosters, I figure a great prophet is worth about 50 gold a turn, so it's probably a much better deal than a great merchant. Whether it's better to put some temples in Bibracte and hope to get lucky or to make another city squeeze a prophet out past Bibracte is something I can't calculate.

I would be inclined to vassalize now that you have a clear diplomatic path to attack Churchill. One enemy at a time, and those cities will get you a lot more economic benefit in Mansa's hands from his research discounts, lowered upkeep, and trade routes. That will also reduce the value of a great merchant.

there is no way a shrine, even a buddhist one, would give you 50 bucks.
And even if it would, it would not be better than instant 2000+ gold.
If this game isn't over in 40 turns, I'll start to question sisiutil's sanity

 

[Melon Head]

Nitpicking I know, but what ???

Crap. That's what I get for posting after 1.5 hours of sleep. Post-patch Warlords is version 2.08. That's what I was referring to. The 1.61 is me getting confused with the newest Vanilla patch.

 

[PublicEnemy]

You don't need to vassalize Mansa, what techs do you need him to research for you?

You have Chemistry and Steel, that's more than enough for domination.

Turn research off and pump out CRII Maceman and upgrade them to Grenadiers. Add plenty of Cannons for the hell of it.

Get your veterans over to Churchill's borders and declare on him once they're ready. I haven't looked at the save but I'm guessing he's defending his cities with Longbows.

Carry on the war with Mansa as you build more military, you can finish him and Churchill off in quick time, then turn your withering gaze in the direction of Bismark.

We need to take our aggressive tendancies out on this game, it helps relieve the stress of real life.

 

[tempuraki]

If you are going to attack the English soon, then I suggest you make MM your vassal now, and not after taking the northern cities. This way you can easily get to the English border, but they will have a hard time get to you, and MM can help pick out the English invasion, or serve as fodder to weaken the defense before you go in and mop up. To make sure MM can be of help, I would even gift/trade chemistry and steel to MM. You can even wait a few turns, take out the lone English city in the south, let MM and Churchhill kill each other for a few turns, then move in with your stacks.

 

[curtadams]

there is no way a shrine, even a buddhist one, would give you 50 bucks.
And even if it would, it would not be better than instant 2000+ gold.
If this game isn't over in 40 turns, I'll start to question sisiutil's sanity

There's about 35 cities on the continent, almost all Buddhist. With a Grocer and a Market, that's over 50 gold. And it will take more that 40 turns. He's using cannons and infantry, with move 1. Even with two conquering armies, the paths covering all cities are longer than 40 squares.