ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II

[sylvanllewelyn]

The more I think about it, the more I believe this start completely perfect for utilizing this leader's trait to the fullest. PLEASE read this before your next round, Sisiutil, as this time I really believe I have a great plan for winning this.

First of all, I don't think he'll be able to afford to build the great wall. He's got way too many priorities. Firstly, there's Oracle and CoL definitely, since he can then chop out the granaries and courthouses at half-price, and there are plenty of forests around this game. Maintenance cost, there's no avoiding it - horses and gold as second city is an absolute must. Usually I would also advocate stonehenge for expansion, but this time, I'm very strongly against it, for the simple reason that he'll need the sugar hooked up for the hapiness. Also, the pre-requisite for calendar is mathematics, which unlocks his UB (thank goodness!).

You won't utilize the cheap lighthouses, cheap harbours or the great lighthouse/colossus, because domestic trade routes are like 1 commerce a city and you need to be working cottages rather than sea tiles. Plus, you'll have way too much health anyway.

Here's my suggested plan:
A crappy but necessary second city: on top of the hill with horse 2E1S, cow 2S1W. Your third city will be cow-gold-fish. Your maintenance costs will be bad, or, not so bad, as you get cheap courthouses, and your third city's gold mine will pay for itself. But the reason why I suggested that crappy second and third city placement is because you can take advantage of the river. Chop out monument, hook up horse, and then let the river connect the horse resource to your capital. You look hopelessly under-defended, while not being able to afford the time for great wall either

Oracle, CoL, very quickly. Wait for great prophet, build confucian shrine. In your new cities, don't build monument. Wait for confucianism to spread, which should be very fast under a holy shrine, believe me. With mathematics and leader traits, granaries only take up 1 forest chop and courthouses only two forest chops. With organized religion, if you research monotheism, you'll only need two forest chops, as there will be hammer overflow. After monotheism, go for monarchy. Might as well, as you need the other forests to chop out Hammam.

Total hapiness so far: 3 (default) + 1 (gold) + 1 (sugar) + 1 (monarchy) + 1 (official religion) + 2 (Hammam) = 9. Still blows. PRAY you get scientists quickly enough under caste system and pacifism to beeline to liberalism in time for astronomy. For those that don't know what I'm talking about, it's 4 scientists, popping: philosophy, paper, education, education. If you research metal casting, compass, machinery and optics first, your scientists will be popping guilds, which you don't want. Be careful Sisiutil, and good luck. You're stuck in a rut, and really, this is the only leader that can pull it off!

P.S. Don't build Chichen Itza.

 

[namliaM]

If you research metal casting, compass, machinery and optics first, your scientists will be popping guilds

Huh??? Since when do scientists bulb Guilds???

 

[PublicEnemy]

Artists, Merchants and Engineers can lightbulb Guilds, Scientists can't.

 

[Kietharr]

I'm still a strong advocate of a military win. Yeah, it's not the best way to take advantage of the isolated start, but it'd be far more interesting to watch than a space race or culture win. You have plenty of grassland to cottage spam on, so you should be able to keep your science rate on equal grounds with the other AI for a while, at least until you can get contacts. Optics is certainly a big one, so i'd beeline there to get contacts first, and from there try to do liberalism using the AIs to catch up in tech, and pick either nationalism or astronomy, then research gunpowder, then the one you didn't pick from lib. Your cities will probably be pretty sizeable at this point so you'll be able to draft and whip out Janisaries or grens pretty well for a naval assault on whoever on the other island is easy pickens. You're not a spiritual leader so the other island will probably have 5 or 6 of the religions, hopefully distributed enough so you can cause strife without the others getting angry. Your continent probably has 18-20% of the world. A very unconventional victory for an isolated start, but it'd be a fun read

 

[PublicEnemy]

I'm still a strong advocate of a military win. Yeah, it's not the best way to take advantage of the isolated start, but it'd be far more interesting to watch than a space race or culture win. You have plenty of grassland to cottage spam on, so you should be able to keep your science rate on equal grounds with the other AI for a while, at least until you can get contacts. Optics is certainly a big one, so i'd beeline there to get contacts first, and from there try to do liberalism using the AIs to catch up in tech, and pick either nationalism or astronomy, then research gunpowder, then the one you didn't pick from lib. Your cities will probably be pretty sizeable at this point so you'll be able to draft and whip out Janisaries or grens pretty well for a naval assault on whoever on the other island is easy pickens. You're not a spiritual leader so the other island will probably have 5 or 6 of the religions, hopefully distributed enough so you can cause strife without the others getting angry. Your continent probably has 18-20% of the world. A very unconventional victory for an isolated start, but it'd be a fun read

I agree, domination would be most challenging strategy, even if people don't consider it the most conventional.
That was why I came up with a possible route to Astronomy earlier in the thread. The quicker we get there the quicker we can start a naval assault.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 2: 2260 BC to 580 BC

I started the round by postponing my research of Pottery in favour of a tech that would be immediately useful--perhaps even crucial:

Mysticism was needed so I my second city could start with a monument as its first build. The best locations for either the copper or horse city did not have the strategic resource in its first ring.

Although the Settler was ready in Istanbul, I had seen some barbarian Warriors wandering around, approaching my borders and then disappearing. No sense taking any stupid risks. So I finished building a Warrior to accompany the Settler.

After much deliberation, I decided on the site for my second city:

For copper, of course. Yes, unfortunately, it has three--three!--peaks in its fat cross. But it will give me copper and will, with Iron Working, be able to feed itself with that rice tile. It was also close, much closer than the horse city. As it turned out, time was indeed of the essence, so I think I made the right decision.

I also decided to prioritize the Oracle as the early wonder. I didn't think I'd have the Great Wall completed in time to fend off the barb onslaught, nor would I have that stone hooked up any time soon, so I doubted I'd get much more for my efforts than a little gold and a lot of unwelcome company. The Oracle, for Code of Laws, would give me several things: (1) a free tech (duh); (2) a religion; (3) GP points towards a Great Prophet for that religion's shrine; (4) access to the Caste System civic; and (5) access to Organized's cheap courthouses. Pretty darn good for one wonder!

So I held off continuing with Pottery and pursued the religious techs for a while, making my way through Meditation (cheaper and faster than Polytheism, plus I can build research-enhancing monasteries and missionaries), and then on to...

However, I couldn't start building the Oracle in the capital just yet. I had some unruly company to deal with:

As I recall, barbs start invading your territory when the number of cities on the continent is n+1, where n is the number of civs on the continent. Well, since I'm the only civ on the continent, that meant once Edirne was built, the barbs came a-callin'. Another disadvantage of an isolated start. I had no choice but to build Warrior after Warrior, hunker down, and watch the barbs destroy every single tile improvement around the capital. Every one, even the roads.

However, my cities held; they were fortunate in their placement. Edirne got almost no barb attacks, protected as it was by the mountains and the coast. Istanbul was fortunate in that it's placed west of the river and most of the barbs came from the east. The barbs therefore attacked across the river (stupid barbs! ha ha! ) which gave my city-defending Warriors a +25% defensive bonus on top of fortification and city defense. So I didn't lose a single Warrior.

The barb attacks then seemed to taper off, so I figured it was safe to start working on the Oracle in Istanbul while I re-built the roads that connected my two cities. However, the barbs were apparently just taking a breather while they waited for their Axemen to go after me. Drastic action was required. Edirne's borders had popped and the copper mine was operational. This is where all that gold from the goody huts came in handy.

Yes, I took my best Warrior (with Combat I) and 110 gold later he was outfitted with an axe, a helmet, a leather kilt, and those BDSM-style strappy things the Axemen wear on their chests. Hey, whatever grinds your turkey, guys; so long as you defend the empire, I don't care what you do in your off-duty hours.

So I now had Axemen to defend myself (that's all Edirne was building for awhile), and that allowed me to have my Workers put the tile improvements back, along with some new ones. In particular, the plains hill northwest of Istanbul was mined and its forest chopped.

I finally finished researching Pottery while the Oracle was built, followed by Writing, so I have the prerequisites now for CoL. Several turns and dead barbs later, I was ready to wield the whip:

Like I said, no sense taking any chances.

I chose Code of Laws, as recommended and expected:

And Confucianism was founded in Edirne:

No, it's not the greatest shrine city, but it won't be half-bad. Once I have Iron Working, I can clear that jungle and lay down at least 5 cottages on its grassland tiles, maybe even some on the plains tiles too. If horse city had been #2 and the holy city, I doubt I could have cottaged it at all, given the lack of food it has.

Anyway, I immediately adopted Confucianism as my state religion. That will help a bit with the happiness cap, and it gives me a way to get my borders to pop without building monuments.

I played just a few more turns to get a couple more Axemen built. The extra Warriors I built are now serving as fog-busters, especially near the choice city sites in the southeast; I don't want to have to spend a lot of hammers on Axemen to prise loose a barb city down there. The barbs have built a city in the northwest, and not in an ideal location, so that will have to be dealt with later. Fortunately, since they're settling down, getting married, and raising little barbarians, their attacks on my territory have largely subsided.

The goody hut money has now run out and I'll be at 60% research on the next turn. I've researched Masonry and Fishing and I'm partway through Sailing. (I guess I should also mention that Judaism was founded somewhere out there.)

Now I could start building the Great Wall in Istanbul, but I'm wondering if I should bother. If I'm starting it this late I doubt that I'll finish it, and as I mentioned, the barbs have turned all sedentary on me, so it may be pointless. I would probably get a pile of gold for it, but I'm thinking the hammers would be better spent on other things: a library, a monastery, Settlers, Workers, and a few Axes to take down that barb city, for example. Plus I think it would be smart to save the forests around Istanbul for a wonder I have a chance at.

At this point, I think my immediate concern is going to be the economy, so that means cottage spam around the capital in particular. I also want to build the cow-horse-gold city next (on that coastal desert tile between the cows and gold). The gold will definitely help the economy and research. After that... well, we can talk about what cities go where and what the priorities are.

As for research, I thought after Sailing that Iron Working would be sensible, if only to see where, if anywhere, the iron is so we can plan the cities even more carefully.

At any rate, here is a map and below it, the saved game file:

 

[carl corey]

Tough luck with the barbs out there. Maybe including an early Archery in the research path would have helped, but you didn't even have Hunting... Tough call.

I'd say there's no way you can still get the Great Wall. In one of my tests with Qin I aimed for GW & Oracle combo to lightbulb Machinery but I had to really speed things up to score both wonders most of the time. Without stone connected and not being Industrious there are simply too many things against you.

 

[pigswill]

Might be worth building WB to explore the north east island; you still don't know if you're totally or partially isolated. Good news is that all the barb cities being built will help fund your research; your axes are likely to be busy for the next set. Bad news is 2 cities and 8 beakers/turn is well behind the clock.

 

[r_rolo1]

Sisiutil, in my opinion you should not build the great wall in your capitol; you need some more down to earth things, like a granary ( time) and a library. And after sailing, what do you plan to research? IW? Math? Alphabet? And that barb city to the north doesn't fit well in any dotmap, so should be razed for $$$. Still, nice defence with warriors vs archers.

 

[lukep]

hmm. 2 cities size 2 in 500 BC, you are in for a tough ride. AIs are probably in the 4 or 5 cities now, the biggest ones being 8 or more.

To overcome this slow start, but inevitable when isolated, you really need to grow fast, so farms not cottages. you can and should run somes of the latter, but you want to have at least +5 or +6 food in every city for good early grow. Fortunately MMII strengths allow for that, so you should really try to focus on that.

Also CoL from Oracle may be ok, but you still need to prioritize Maths and Monarchy imho, as CS is far too early. IW of course come first.

gw is too late imho

 

[Binky123]

imo, you needed more warriors to fogbust on good tiles even if it would've meant a later settler. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

Warriors can do a pretty decent job vs barbs especially if you put them in forested hills and upgrade them for jungle/forest defence.

 

[curtadams]

This is why I thought it essential to settle city #2 next to a military resource. Alone on such a large island you had to have military right away. To add to your troubles, city#2 still has no food resource. Your #1 priority now should be growth. You want 3 more cities pronto. Probably 1 at the mouth of the river, one between the cow and the gold, and one south on the river near the rice, in that order. Iron Working is definitely a priority. Don't sweat Pottery, you need some growth before you can afford cottages.

 

[Kietharr]

Ouch, I have to echo what the other people are saying, two cities at 580BC isn't looking good, although I don't have any doubts that you'll win in the end. Now that you have axes up and running, you need to expand and FAST. You have courthouses now so you should be able to fill up the island by 250AD or so, if you don't get going ASAP you're going to fall pitifully behind. Hope for a lot of barbarian cities to show up for money, and optics is even more of a priority, IW is also a big one but it's on the way to optics.

 

[willpax]

I'll concur with the general sentiment in favor of fast expansion. Granaries, then three settlers and escorts, with perhaps a workboat thrown in just in case we can nab an early contact in the northeast (we'll kick ourselves if we didn't even try, and a workboat will find a use later if there are naught but rocks up there). Monrachy and math should be the next research goals (in my not merely humble but abject-I-lose-on-monarch opinion).

Good job weathering the barbs.

 

[carl corey]

By the way, can you get enough warriors out to fogbust NW and SE? It would leave only the E side for barbs to show up and you can group your Axes there.

 

[lukep]

my attempt at a . map. not very different from others.

all sites nicely are either coastal or near water and claim all ressources.
total 10 cities, no need imho to think about fillers yet.

C and D can be settled right now as they have enough workable tiles which are not covered by jungle. H would be also ok but too far away

For A you need to get rid of barbarians

E is nice too but will need CS first.
imho F,B& H are to be done much later

 

[Uncle Istvan]

I have to say that this game may be exciting after all, not because it allows us to see you win in an interesting way, but because it allows us to see you come back from a very weak start, hopefully to intense greatness and a victory. If you manage to pull off a domination win here (not the easiest win, but I would love to see a military strategy from an isolated start), I will be extremely impressed.

 

[curtadams]

A specific suggestion - once you have enough Axemen to guard your territory, build Settlers/Workers in Edrine and everything else in the capitol. Pop growth in the capital is far more useful since it has much better tiles.

 

[Whitefire]

Woo! Sis took my advice!

Anyway, I still see this island as perfect for an SE. I know when you see fields of grasslands (or jungle) you think CE, but you're so far behind, you need the immediate benefits of an SE. Besides, the UB is perfect for running an SE.

So, Iron Working and Civil Service are both priorities. Although, I think a detour to Metal Casting in order to pick up Colossus is a valid path. Colossus will more than pay for the detour. I think Liberalism is out of the question, so you really need to decide how you want to win this game Sis. It's still early enough to go any way, but we need some kind of direction ;D.

 

[Sisiutil]

Tough luck with the barbs out there. Maybe including an early Archery in the research path would have helped, but you didn't even have Hunting... Tough call.

I'd say there's no way you can still get the Great Wall. In one of my tests with Qin I aimed for GW & Oracle combo to lightbulb Machinery but I had to really speed things up to score both wonders most of the time. Without stone connected and not being Industrious there are simply too many things against you.

I was thinking that about Archery as well, but specifically, after I saw that I had neither copper nor horses in the capital's fat cross. On a non-isolated start the barbs seem to take a little longer to invade my borders, giving me time to get everything hooked up. Nevertheless, the Warriors did admirably well against the barbs--one Woodsman II Warrior, fortified on a jungle hill, even defeated a barb axe!

Nevertheless, the barbs definitely slowed me down, which is why I only have one city. Okay, then, the next round will focus on REX, especially now that I can build courthouses. SE may be the way to go, especially if I switch to Caste System soon once a little infrastructure has been whipped into existence.