ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II

[slaze]

Astronomy is only one more tech from Optics (and Calendar). If we can afford to spend two scientists for it then its benefits will help us down any path chosen from then (which could very well include Liberalism and Democracy).

The benefits being the commerce taken in from trade routes get multiplied by more than 2.5

Mehmed, with Expansive's cheap harbors and potential high populations, is the leader who can benifit the most from the trade route game.

A necessary side track is Hereditary Rule, due to circumstance. Currency is also important.

Edirne fixes how the coast should be settled. Desert-gold, stone-fish, river-jungle-hill and cow-clam shouldn't change too much on the appearance of iron.

As much as you can, I'd REX to get these cities out and built with infrastructure, and then go to caste system for a city-dependant, hybrid SE. Desert-gold and stone-fish get mostly cottaged while river-jungle-hill is all farms and mines. Give cow-clam the mines it needs to build its buildings (lighthouse/library/monastary), and then it goes scientists too. Edirne all cottages (and IW ASAP), Istanbul has food and mines till pop 8 but needs to be working cottages too - It will greatly benefit from beaurocracy but be patient.

When it comes to the building that gets double production with traits, it's best to do all or nothing whipping. Either whip it immediately to get its benefit right away, or build it all the way at bonus, and whip excess into something else. the excess isn't doubled, but you end up working more of the doubled production.

And make sure and build the workboat to scout the island.

 

[JoeBlade]

In Sisiutil's defense I'd like to say I very much doubt researching archery or fogbusting would have yielded any better results.

On one hand the island's too big to fogbust effectively; at best it would've been a drain on the economy with all the units about.
On the other hand, neither of the alternatives would have prevented the pillaging thanks to the new barb behaviour in warlords. Barbs just don't bother anymore with those well-defended units on forested hills but will instead head straight for city improvements, irrespective of distance.

So IMO he did what he could without early strategic resources in the capital. I also think focusing on the Oracle was the better choice here.

 

[Nials]

Rough start with so many barbs around but there wasn't much you could have done differently without draining your economy even more. Archers might have helped but OTOH you didn't lose a single Warrior as you said yourself.

Now keep cranking out Axes, Workers and Settlers and REX it up. Barb cities will help fund your expansion as well

 

[cabert]

2 things :
- good call on your second city. The peaks certainly won't give you food, hammers or commerce, but they gave you more fogbusting than you could have managed any other way.
- time to expand. It's also time to think about the victory condition (yes!).
I don't recommand going cultural, but if you want to try you're going to need religions, and they are getting scarce. You could try to get taoism, and that's it. I think a space race is doable.
You're going to fogbust a lot better with cities than with units. My guess would be gold city next to fund your empire a bit, while teching to currency.
Markets are good for the gold city and the capital. courthouses are good everywhere (maybe including the capital if you need 1 more for the FP). Don't be shy on overlapping. Your cities will be smallish for a while, so overlapping will make the best use of tiles.

edit : I think the order of the cities will be essential to :
- keep the empire running (commerce!)
- fogbust asap.

My guess would be to get those 2 cities first:
1) gold + cow + horses, by settling on the desert next to the gold hill
2) double fish + cow GP farm, by settling on city n°6 in one of those dotmaps. another peak city for maximum fogbusting.
After that, it's jungle time.
It's not commonsensical, but I would settle a jungle city after that (IW is coming after currency IMHO).

Don't go crazy on caste system. You're going to whip a lot IMHO.
Drama and GT in double fish city is a long term option to make the city worthwhile.

 

[TheArchduke]

Space is indeed a good idea.



But how about a Diplomatic Victory? If he manages to get enough population, making friends should be easy without any border tensions and careful planning.

 

[pigswill]

I'm playing a shadow and actually went the way of major fogbusting; built 6 warriors and six archers early on which didn't actually cost that much in maintenance (I'd cottaged the sugar tiles which helped of course). I lost three warriors, killed 4 barb warriors and 4 barb archers by 100bc and that was the extent of the barbarian problem: no axes, no pillaging. There was a cost to be paid which was no early wonders. Fogbusters weren't wasted as they later became initial garrisons (avoiding 'we fear for our protection' penalty).

 

[JoeBlade]

I'm playing a shadow and actually went the way of major fogbusting; built 6 warriors and six archers early on which didn't actually cost that much in maintenance (I'd cottaged the sugar tiles which helped of course). I lost three warriors, killed 4 barb warriors and 4 barb archers by 100bc and that was the extent of the barbarian problem: no axes, no pillaging. There was a cost to be paid which was no early wonders. Fogbusters weren't wasted as they later became initial garrisons (avoiding 'we fear for our protection' penalty).

Mind posting a screenie of the distribution of your FB's? If you still have the savegame handy, that is.
As I said earlier I can't for the world of me get it to work anymore since Warlords, bar literally busting all fog of course. I've almost grown used to being pillaged early-game when no copper or horses pop near my capital

The lack of axe barbs makes a huge difference though, and that's entirely down to the random factor. Those fellas tend to chew right through any defense I can muster without early strategic resources, accruing XP for some nasty promotions in the process

 

[Immaculate]

So I held off continuing with Pottery and pursued the religious techs for a while, making my way through Meditation (cheaper and faster than Polytheism, plus I can build research-enhancing monasteries and missionaries), and then on to...

I have a question about choosing meditation over polytheism.

meditation gives you monastaries, its true, but now forces great scientists to lightbulb philosophy over the machinery/optics path.
Now, this could be good if you want to start running pacifism, but the end result of running pacifism from bulbing philosophy is that you get 3 scientists in the time it takes to get two but that you use 1 of those to run pacifism in the first place. (and you end up not being able to use organized religion which you should use to make use of your organized trait).

Furthermore, it forces you to avoid civil service for that much longer as you get scientists out for the needed light-bulbing path.

anyway, i still advocate caste system switch and running two merchants in the next city which is available to do so (you'll want to to this before math is researched and you don't want to avoid math for too long). This assumes you want to light-bulb metal-working with a merchant prior to working on generating scientists.

Lastly, getting off this rock quickly means you don't have time to generate a prophet prior to the getting the scientists you need for optics so pay attention to your capitals prophet point generation- you want to make sure your cities generating merchants/scientists stay ahead.

This message relates to the path outlined here (quoting myself so you don't have to look up an earlier post):

If you want to get into the tech-race quickly, you may want to consider:
1) building the oracle for code-of-laws
2) adopting caste-system
3) generating 1 merchant, and 2 scientists (in that order) such that your merchant is done before math and your scientists come some time after (they won't be used until you have compass and calendar, but before theology or civil service)
4) use merchant for metal casting (prior to math so you can't bulb currency) this is why you need caste system- its impossible to run merchants pre-currency without it
5) use scientists to bulb machinery and optics (need compass and calendar)

It would also be interesting to see someone use caste system instead of slavery. It does have its benefits. And it would also make founding a city in the north with the fish and cows very useful as that would make a GREAT city under caste-system.
Later, once you have a merchant and a couple libraries, you can switch to slavery if you want to.

EDIT: oh yeah, and no meditation or else you'll light-bulb philosophy

My 2

Lastly (this is getting to be a long post- so sorry):
Considering the fact that you may not be able to generate 3 scientists and 1 merchant (metal-casting, philosophy, metal working, machinery and optics), you may want to consider aiming for 2 scientists and 1 merchant (metal-casting, philosophy, optics). This would force you to self-research machinery but would let you skip calendar (which a scientist bulbs before machinery but not before optics).

 

[pigswill]

JoeBlade: I'll probably post something in the spoiler thread (100bc); can't post it here because I'd researched IW and don't want Sisiutil to know if there's any iron on the island.

 

[cabert]

I believe beelining to optics is counterproductive (not much to trade).
I believe a standard CE (loads of workers, cottage spamming, rush to liberalism) approach would make an almost sure space win. The jungle sites are certainly good for this .
A late state property production conversion may not even be necessary, some production capable cities are there.

 

[Immaculate]

I believe beelining to optics is counterproductive (not much to trade).

You usually give really good advice (and seem to be a strong player- and your avatar rocks too) but i am not sure i agree with you regarding this comment.

I would like to hear why you think there wouldn't be much to trade. Just asking so i can learn.

I.

 

[cabert]

You usually give really good advice (and seem to be a strong player- and your avatar rocks too) but i am not sure i agree with you regarding this comment.

I would like to hear why you think there wouldn't be much to trade. Just asking so i can learn.

I.

first, you don't need to bow before me, I'm only a monarch level player . Big mouthed, but not THAT good.

Second, the beeline to optics isn't opening anything in term of research or commerce, really.
Going for a strong cottaged up landmass and letting the AIs find us while teching to liberalism seems a lot stronger to me. It's easier to have something to trade for when you're the first to liberalism.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I agree with cabert on the Optics beeline. In general, there are two reasons why people are recommending getting there quickly.

1. We need contact with the other civilizations!!!
2. We need Astronomy for trade!!!

There's also the circumnavigation bonus, but I don't think anyone is using that as a motivation for a beeline. It's a nice bonus but not that huge.

As for contact, yes, contact would be very useful. Presumably there will be a technology gap when we meet our overseas neighbors, and it would be useful to get working on that as soon as possible. However, as far as contact goes, we're no better off if we contact them than if they contact us. Furthermore, if we assume that we'll be behind on technology, what are we really going to offer them in trade?

Astronomy is actually somewhat similar. Of course, there is a lot we want from trades, what with our happiness issues and so forth, but what do we really have to offer? If I counted correctly, our surplus will be 2 fish, 2 rice, 3 sugar, and 6 cows. Given how much we lack, that really isn't much. I consider the cows almost irrelevant due to their common availability. How many games have you played where you needed to trade for cows? With our built in health benefits and major happiness problems, we can consider trading away our last instance of one or two health resources, but that's an extreme option.

So, in conclusion, I'm not saying that Optics and/or Astronomy are bad or that we should avoid them, but I do think that our isolated situation makes them a little less beneficial. There are so many options on the technology tree that I think there are plenty that are more important than optics (Mathematics, Philosophy, Drama, Monarchy to name a few).

I'd be more inclined to pursue Liberalism through Drama (theaters) and Philosophy (Taoism). Cultural might be tough at this point, but it's by no means lost. If we pick up Taoism and Islam that's 3 locally founded religions. Three is enough for a cultural win, and if a fourth one spreads to us, we're all set. Diplomatic and Space Race remain as extremely viable backup options. Military victories aren't out of the question, but they'd clearly be the hard way.

The wide spread of temples would probably take care of most of the happiness issues if we go for a cultural win. If that fails, then it's probably worth looking at an attack on one AI to pick up some additional resources.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

This is a hard, hard, hard game. I really do have doubts whether he can pull this off at all. Don't ask for what kind of victory he'll get. Ask whether he'll get one at all. I'm willing to even bet he won't win this one.

I thought about archery, but like someone said, you don't start with hunting. And axes will be useful for attacking barb cities. What's pathetic about this is the pointlessness of dot-mapping. He needs growth so much he'll take any barb city as is, bad location or not.

As for astronomy and trading - he won't make any tech trades, but he'll sure as heck make resource trades for hapiness resources! And isolated starts usually lead to smaller empires, which means a lot of trading money too. Plus - and this is quite key - the great lighthouse obseletes with corporation, not astronomy. Since great lighthouses sometimes don't get built until the medieval era, it could unleash a golden era of 90% tech research.

 

[cabert]

This is a hard, hard, hard game. I really do have doubts whether he can pull this off at all. Don't ask for what kind of victory he'll get. Ask whether he'll get one at all. I'm willing to even bet he won't win this one.

I take the bet .

I agree it seems hard, but it's a nice change from the magic hut popping or the totally unfair agressive protective grenadiers

I thought about archery, but like someone said, you don't start with hunting. And axes will be useful for attacking barb cities. What's pathetic about this is the pointlessness of dot-mapping. He needs growth so much he'll take any barb city as is, bad location or not.

I don't think so.
Seeing that there is no AIs competing for the tiles, and seeing there is only a limited land available (maybe another island if culture allows to reach it?), optimal city placement with calculated overlapping is necessary.
I think 10 good cities are necessary to not be outteched.

As for astronomy and trading - he won't make any tech trades, but he'll sure as heck make resource trades for hapiness resources! And isolated starts usually lead to smaller empires, which means a lot of trading money too. Plus - and this is quite key - the great lighthouse obseletes with corporation, not astronomy. Since great lighthouses sometimes don't get built until the medieval era, it could unleash a golden era of 90% tech research.

The Great lighthouse isn't doing a lot of good for an isolated start, except denial for the AI. The 2 commerce it would give won't even cover the cost of the building.
Better build 2 settler and 2 workers .

 

[slaze]

To work Astronomy perfectly you have a merchant lying around after it's done. You research all the techs you want then at deficit, with all the AI bonuses kicking in. Pre-Optics, any tech is without AI bonuses so that would lean you towards researching the bulky techs, MC and Machinery. Compass helps a little with commerce, much more so later, and most of the other early to mid commerce techs are already in, Pottery, Monastaries, Libraries, Courthouses, Caste System. Only one missing is CS, but maybe can do without. You hold on to Astronomy, play some catch up, and then trade it around for what you can. Then slowly head towards a full CE, and space. And all these great people call for pacifism.

Does Vassalism do anything to negate the unit cost of Pacifism?

 

[pigswill]

One thing Sisiutil does have is enough land. If there are neighbours beyond north east island there may be competition for the land otherwise he's got until astronomy. Developing the land is going to be the issue. Is it best to go for staged colonisation (build a few cities, restore economy, build a few more) or all out colonisation then try to rebuild the economy?

 

[cabert]

One thing Sisiutil does have is enough land. If there are neighbours beyond north east island there may be competition for the land otherwise he's got until astronomy. Developing the land is going to be the issue. Is it best to go for staged colonisation (build a few cities, restore economy, build a few more) or all out colonisation then try to rebuild the economy?

without competition, it's certainly better to go for regular colonization.
This doesn't mean slow (CoL is already there!).

 

[oyzar]

just get out all the cities asap then worry about economy afterwards. He have col and he have writing and pottery not like he need anything else to get his economy up and running.

 

[Whitefire]

One thing Sisiutil does have is enough land. If there are neighbours beyond north east island there may be competition for the land otherwise he's got until astronomy. Developing the land is going to be the issue. Is it best to go for staged colonisation (build a few cities, restore economy, build a few more) or all out colonisation then try to rebuild the economy?

Rapid, locust-like expansion IMO. Then, build worker/workboat, then whip a Courthouse in every city. After you whip the courthouses, jump to Caste System and start recovering your economy. You should be able to eat up all the land in very few (50-60) turns. And since we'll be running an SE (right?) research rate isn't much of an issue. We just need enough gold to keep our 1 unit per city from disbanding.

An added bonus to rapid expansion is busting the fog. Since we've abandoned the GW, we want to clear that fog out ASAP. Every unit lost to barbs and every improvement raized is a waste of hammers and worker turns that could have been avoided.