ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II

you could do the stone/cow/fish city though that would need to pop borders before working the stone which means you need a monument in adition to the stone wonders which is kinda redundant...
 
I would agree about aiming for the great lighthouse or colossus if you can. The great lighthouse isn't going to be quite as effective since you won't have overseas trade routes, but it would still be useful if you have time for it. You may need to found your 2nd city near horses to deal with the barbs. IMO chariots are better at dealing with barbs because of increased movement, and they can also defeat the occasional axemen that appears.

The island seems a little big to fogbust completely, although I suppose it's possible. I think aggressive fogbusting + chariots + any wonders you can fit in would work pretty well.

Later on, lots of workers + cottage spam + hammams should make for a nice mid game.
 
settler to the jungle on the river 1NE of copper. or the coast. probably the coast.

looks like a cottage spam game. space race here we come

fish/gold on hill and northern rivermouth (1SE of cows for best food balance) are good early cottage centers.

clam/cow/rice is very good but with low commerce and a third ring Istanbul fogbust, it can wait.

desert fishies looks fun. needs plains hill.

And green, jungle-cut landlock cities can work alot of cottages

all in all, you could dotmap this a dozen different ways.

But alot of it depends on how you want to play it. I wonder what's better, a land-locked city working 15 cottages or a coastal with 8 cottages and more in trade routes. in the end the trade routes win (At least i think - water tiles bring in some commerce don't they, UN trade route, ...) but it takes a while to get there (and convienently enough, pop 8 coastal cities usually have plently of land to work).

But you're going to need astronomy to compete with the other civs if you end up isolated. You can pop astronomy with exactly 2 scientists if you avoid paper (no Civil Service or Theology) and Philosophy (no Meditation). or you could just get 3 scientists, one for philosophy, but you won't find too many friends if you're the only taoist. You could also go to Liberalism and get Astronomy (Education does lead to gunpowder), but who knows.

Everybody want wonders but i dunno man. stick to the "rocks" but nothing too soon. If the stone could provide any resemblance of a city i'd talk pyramids but it just doesnt. nothing but plains farms over there.

But then, with no need to field an army, you gotta spend your hammers on something. I'll make a wild guess and say the Great Library gets chopped somewhere.

but hey, why not have fun with it. Maybe culture's the way to go. maybe it's time to build the Chicken Itza. Or maybe not.
 
This is the same situation Monty was in the last game and he built the Chichen Itza. Laugh if you want, but he was the only AI that Sisiutil didn't beat up on.

:lol: Yeah, 'cuz I find Chichen Itza so intimidating... :lol:

I'll try to somehow coalesce all these suggestions into a strategy and play and post the next round tomorrow, I hope.
 
Alone on such a large continent, you have *got* to get copper or horses *very* early.

Agree with this for the most part. You aren't going to be able to fogbust everything.

Every warrior you build is just this side of a waste.

Strongly disagree with this. There is a noticeable happy problem slapping us right in the face here even with hammans and forges. Hereditary Rule is going to be critical to jump starting the economy. If you avoid hunting or avoid hooking up copper you will be able to produce mobile warrior temples as necessary. I really think Monarchy should be an extremely high priority.
 
(Re: early Warriors being a waste)
Strongly disagree with this. There is a noticeable happy problem slapping us right in the face here even with hammans and forges. Hereditary Rule is going to be critical to jump starting the economy. If you avoid hunting or avoid hooking up copper you will be able to produce mobile warrior temples as necessary. I really think Monarchy should be an extremely high priority.
I agree Monarchy will be really important. I think, though, that it's far more efficient to build an Archer or Spearman later than a Warrior early. When you're by yourself, cities often get built out and have nothing better to do than produce military units. I think that's they way to get the garrison units.
 
Strongly disagree with this. There is a noticeable happy problem slapping us right in the face here even with hammans and forges. Hereditary Rule is going to be critical to jump starting the economy. If you avoid hunting or avoid hooking up copper you will be able to produce mobile warrior temples as necessary. I really think Monarchy should be an extremely high priority.

This was discussed in pre-thread.

consensus was that MMII needs HR to show power of his UB and run huges cities. throw in hanging gardens to added gravvy.

Pyramids/representation is an alternative though.
 
Sorry this is taking so long, but I find myself having to re-read several pages of advice to determine how to proceed! Let's see if we can't come to some consensus.

I was, frankly, surprised by some of the city suggestions. Some of you advocated settling the north of the continent first. :confused: There are NO strategic (i.e. military) resources up there! The south HAS to be settled first to ensure we have protection from barbs, which WILL show up, and before too long.

Of all the dotmaps, then, jerVL/kg's made the most sense, despite the early maintenance costs, because its cities will claim the key early resources: horses, gold, and stone. The only thing I would add to it is one additional city 2W1N of the copper to claim that resource and the rice. In fact, I consider that city a higher priority than the magenta one on his dotmap, which is weak on resources unless iron shows up there somewhere. Speaking of which, we'll have to revise the dotmaps when IW is completed, obviously.

As for research, teching towards a handful of early wonders holds appeal. Whether I build the Great Wall or fogbust, I'm not going to need an excessive amount of military. As I said earlier, I plan to forgo barracks for a very long time. So once Pottery is completed, expect me to hopscotch around the lower-middle tier of the tech tree (Mysticism, Masonry, Polytheism, Priesthood) for Stonehenge, the Oracle, and the Great Wall. Then its off to Mathematics for the UB and the Hanging Gardens.

So I'm hoping to see a little more debate around this plan, and then I'll play the round and post it later today.
 
Re early wonders: stonehenge, oracle, great wall. If you prioritise wonders you're likely to get one, lucky to get two and water-walking to get all three. Stone will help once you've got it quarried, roaded and protected from barbs.

Or did you regard my previous comment about 'recovering wonder addict' as a challenge? ;)

I look forward to the next round with interest.
 
Sorry this is taking so long, but I find myself having to re-read several pages of advice to determine how to proceed! Let's see if we can't come to some consensus... So I'm hoping to see a little more debate around this plan, and then I'll play the round and post it later today.

You didn't say much more about the issue, so I presume you are willing to give up the Jans for a shot at this game anyway. A pity, if indeed you won't be using the UU, but you do have another shot at this when you play Napoleon (whose UU is more interesting).

An isolated start, though, isn't all that hard to manage. The simplest solution: cottage spam. With this in mind, you should aim for the cottage civics - Liberalism and Democracy. Getting the former asap and grabbing Consitution, which leads to the latter, as the free tech makes a lot of sense. I know most people are calling for Astronomy, but why do you need it so badly? Optics is at most what you need to gain contact with the other civs to trade techs. And, often, the AI will find you. If you can manage a Liberalism/Constitution beeline on your own, I don't see why you need to worry. Doing it, though, is tricky. My gut feeling is you will need the Great Library to have a good shot at it, so I think you should save enough forests to chop that wonder to completion. Stone can help you build the Kremlin later on, which will complement your cottage economy well.

A cottage-powered cultural victory or a space victory shouldn't be too hard.
 
Of all the dotmaps, then, jerVL/kg's made the most sense, despite the early maintenance costs, because its cities will claim the key early resources: horses, gold, and stone. The only thing I would add to it is one additional city 2W1N of the copper to claim that resource and the rice.
That city will have 3 peaks in its fat cross, eyyewww....

Some people have claimed that my Red City is short on food, but it's not. Farming the river tile will let you work all 3 resources (cows/horses/gold) and still have +2 food for growth. Also -- and this is most important -- this city, if it's the 2nd founded, will almost 100% be the city your first religion is founded in. And holy city + gold mine = $$$$$$$$.

I would actually consider avoiding Stonehenge, and build obelisks directly in every city. The problem with Stonehenge obelisks is that they disappear after Calendar, whereas real ones stick around and eventually produce +2 culture. If nobody's built it by the time you hook up the stone, go ahead and build it, but I wouldn't make it a priority.

As for other wonders:
Great Wall -- definitely chop in the capital ASAP (after settler #2). The nice thing about GW is you don't need fogbusters; you're on an island, so you actually WANT barbs to spawn, to give your units enough XP for the Heroic Epic. (Or does the HE require more points now?) Besides, you've never built the GW in an ALC before, it'll be something new & different. :lol:
Oracle -- definitely chop in city #2 ASAP, and take Code of Laws, which appears to be the consensus.
Great Lighthouse -- you might have a chance of building this in city #2, if you're lucky. I would go for it (after Oracle) and enjoy the cash refund if you don't get it. :cooool:
Pyramids -- probably zero chance of building this, unless you get lucky and pop a GE. Don't even bother with it.
Hanging Gardens -- a no-brainer, build in your capital once most of your cities are founded. You'll definitely have stone hooked up by then.
Colossus -- another no-brainer, though you have plenty of time for this one.
Parthenon, Temple of Artemis -- no marble, no chance.
Great Library -- hmm...I still think it's best to avoid Alphabet/Literature until you meet other civs, but this is an ALC and you're probably going to build it anyway, so what do I know? :lol:
Notre Dame -- With stone + lack of happy resources, this looks like an appealing Wonder, except that it's way off the tech path. But if you wind up going for TGL, might as well build this one too!
Hagia Sophia -- I really, really like this wonder for the engineering points, but with no marble it will be tough to build. It all depends on how quickly you get Engineering.
University of Sankore, Spiral Minaret -- with stone, and lots of religious buildings, both of these look like excellent choices.
Chichen Itza -- believe it or not, this might be a worthwhile wonder to build for the prophet points, depending on how many religions you found. Heck...why not??
Angkor Wat -- on second thought...build this one instead. :cooool: (Assuming you get Philosophy early.)
 
About the copper city, Sisiutil, I would place that lower onthe priorities list than the horse city. Chariots are better vs. barbs in Warlords, as they get a bonus when attacking axemen, and there really aren't any AIs around to strike you. There might be someone up on that other island we haven't explored, but if so you'll have more than enough time to fill in your continent before worrying about fighting.
 
Whew, this is making me dizzy. I'm a player who is still challenged by Noble level games, unless all the chips fall my way.

So I'm going to contribute the best advice I can.

1. Watch out for barbarians. HEY - is that a bear? RUN FROM THE BEAR!

2. You're going to want more food.

3. On the other hand, you're gonna want more hammers, too.

4. On the third hand, you could wear a glove.

See ya. Perfect

PS - thanks for these threads. Learning a lot.
 
2.JPG


Pink: high prior fast and mutch cottage
orange: mediocre but settle able
Red: not necesery but settle able
 
I would actually consider avoiding Stonehenge, and build obelisks directly in every city. The problem with Stonehenge obelisks is that they disappear after Calendar, whereas real ones stick around and eventually produce +2 culture. If nobody's built it by the time you hook up the stone, go ahead and build it, but I wouldn't make it a priority.
you are right on that, but i would not even bother with obelisks. temple and/or library are of more use.
As for other wonders:
Great Wall -- definitely chop in the capital ASAP (after settler #2). The nice thing about GW is you don't need fogbusters; you're on an island, so you actually WANT barbs to spawn, to give your units enough XP for the Heroic Epic. (Or does the HE require more points now?) Besides, you've never built the GW in an ALC before, it'll be something new & different. :lol:
Oracle -- definitely chop in city #2 ASAP, and take Code of Laws, which appears to be the consensus.
Great Lighthouse -- you might have a chance of building this in city #2, if you're lucky. I would go for it (after Oracle) and enjoy the cash refund if you don't get it. :cooool:
Pyramids -- probably zero chance of building this, unless you get lucky and pop a GE. Don't even bother with it.
Hanging Gardens -- a no-brainer, build in your capital once most of your cities are founded. You'll definitely have stone hooked up by then.
Colossus -- another no-brainer, though you have plenty of time for this one.
Parthenon, Temple of Artemis -- no marble, no chance.
Great Library -- hmm...I still think it's best to avoid Alphabet/Literature until you meet other civs, but this is an ALC and you're probably going to build it anyway, so what do I know? :lol:
Notre Dame -- With stone + lack of happy resources, this looks like an appealing Wonder, except that it's way off the tech path. But if you wind up going for TGL, might as well build this one too!
Hagia Sophia -- I really, really like this wonder for the engineering points, but with no marble it will be tough to build. It all depends on how quickly you get Engineering.
University of Sankore, Spiral Minaret -- with stone, and lots of religious buildings, both of these look like excellent choices.
Chichen Itza -- believe it or not, this might be a worthwhile wonder to build for the prophet points, depending on how many religions you found. Heck...why not??
Angkor Wat -- on second thought...build this one instead. :cooool: (Assuming you get Philosophy early.)

great wall is not hard to pull, but must be done **very** early and will probably forbid more than one another early wonder (it produce a GE). Maybe fog buster chariots are better

Oracle/MC/pyramids seems to me the way to go. You probably have to choose between GL/HG & i would take HG, as the UB leads to huge cities easily (with HR from the pointy 4 sides things). That also means a pure CE is probably not the way to go, SE or at least HE will produce better early results (yes i know MMII is not phil but CE is only really powerfull late in the game).

Colossus/lighthouse would be handy but at least the latter must be built very early.
UoS is fine too imho

Parthenon/ToA could be probably pulled from the GW GE, if you choose this path.

Notre Dame, as you said, is way off the path.
 
Maybe we'll luck out and find a Marble on the landmass in the NE.

And I want to reiterate/agree with lukep that SE is the way to go. You need the higher production from farms+mines in order to win these wonders. Plus, you can get higher populations faster with SE and be able to whip 6+ citizens for wonders.
 
Note I haven't reed other People's post... can;t be bothered going through 3-4 Pages

this is on the Assumption you're going for a Cultural Victory.



Blue dots are the locations of the Legendary Culture Cities and Red dots are potential GP farms

Blue dot Rice/Sugar has:

12 GL
2 P
2 GLH
1 PH
1 DH

Blue Dot Sugar Cow has:

11 GL
3 P
4 GLH

Capital (3 Sugar/1 Rice) has

11 GL
1 P
3 GLH
1 PH


You can do the numbers on how many cottages, windmills and excess food you can produce in those cities, remember that 100% of your hammers can be converted into research, gold or Culture so in the late stages of your cultural Victory you can use those hammers to help you win earlier.

Fish GP farm can produce 9 excess Food (Requires a lighthouse)

Rice/Clam/Cows can also produce an excess of 9 Food but requires Lighthouse and CS for Chain irrigation of the Rice, you can also build more farms on the grassland tiles for extra food and specialist there too but requires CS.

What I'd do is make Double Fish my Main GP Farm and when CS comes switch to Rice/Clam/Cows I'll make sure to build National Epic at Rice/Clam/ Cow of course.
 
Cool... looks like I'm in time to weigh in with a dot map of my own:

41764e2e9625432eb96cad98c9106519.jpeg


Locations #1 and #2 are no brainers... securing the resources necessary for repelling barbarians. I'd personally chop Stonehenge at the capital after sending out your first two settlers, to speed up expanding your borders.

If you're planning on going for the Great Wall, I'd settle #3 next... but it has distance maintenance issues, as do #5 and #7. I'd settle them at my current level, but it may make more sense putting all three of them off until later. :dunno:

#6 would make an excellent Great Merchant farm and Wall Street City... it has sufficient production to build gold multiplying buildings, plus plenty of food to support merchant specialists.
 
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